Urban Ag said:

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I think all of the events from the past seven seasons/books, the betrayals, the fact that she gave so much to save Westeros and is still treated with disdain, all of the trusted friends she has lost.......the realization hit her she would always be a foreigner to all of Westeros (sans maybe the Dornish), as foreign as the Dothraki and Unsullied. She's a dragon of Old Valyria, more Dothraki than Westerosi, and like the Targs of old she came to conquer. She tried it Tyrion's way. She tried it Varys's way. She tried it Jon's way. And all it has brought her is loss and she is no the more loved than before she even showed up and saved the continent from the WW.

She breaks the wheel by destroying KL.

Yes, it needed more episodes to build up. But here we are just the same.

---

I disagree with this. She had a lot of support against Cersei from the beginning. Granted support is not love, but still. Then she had men in the North toasting her for saving them. She may have had the beginning of "love" from the kingdom least likely to love an outsider. Sure, they'd never love her like Jon, but she had only been there for a hot minute.

I will agree that she always be viewed at least partially as a foreigner. Aegon the Conqueror faced rebellions even after he had consolidate power over most of Westeros, and Dorne wasn't brought into the kingdom until much later. The one thing she had on her side though, was that the Targaryens had a history in Westeros at this time, whereas Aegon was the first to rule over it.

I still the think the argument that she had to burn KL is a bad one though. Her father wasn't hated because he was a Targ. It was because he was cruel and killed people. Wiping out a city is just going to breed hate against her. We've already seen that some of her greatest Westerosi supporters, like Jon and Tyrion, are sickened by what happened.

I think part of the shows success is that it can be enjoyed on so many levels. Simple, face value entertainment, no thought, just a distraction - which is how i started viewing it.

But there are layers of subtlety too

And a real theme - at the 'english major' level, which i usually avoid thinking with or even make fun of.

Like rodney dangerfield hiring kurt vonnegut to write his english paper on a kurt vonnegut novel in 'back to school' - and getting a D- from the english teacher who had 'better ideas' about vonnegut's theme.

Bottom line, maybe im kurt vonnegut, maybe im the dumbass english teacher, but i really like the way the series subtly built up to there being no choice....it works for me, and if posting it here entertains, or if someone reading it gets extra enjoyment from watching with this perspective, then im happy with that.

The Dog Lord said:

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Urban Ag said:

---

I think all of the events from the past seven seasons/books, the betrayals, the fact that she gave so much to save Westeros and is still treated with disdain, all of the trusted friends she has lost.......the realization hit her she would always be a foreigner to all of Westeros (sans maybe the Dornish), as foreign as the Dothraki and Unsullied. She's a dragon of Old Valyria, more Dothraki than Westerosi, and like the Targs of old she came to conquer. She tried it Tyrion's way. She tried it Varys's way. She tried it Jon's way. And all it has brought her is loss and she is no the more loved than before she even showed up and saved the continent from the WW.

She breaks the wheel by destroying KL.

Yes, it needed more episodes to build up. But here we are just the same.

---

I disagree with this. She had a lot of support against Cersei from the beginning. Granted support is not love, but still. Then she had men in the North toasting her for saving them. She may have had the beginning of "love" from the kingdom least likely to love an outsider. Sure, they'd never love her like Jon, but she had only been there for a hot minute.

I will agree that she always be viewed at least partially as a foreigner. Aegon the Conqueror faced rebellions even after he had consolidate power over most of Westeros, and Dorne wasn't brought into the kingdom until much later. The one thing she had on her side though, was that the Targaryens had a history in Westeros at this time, whereas Aegon was the first to rule over it.

I still the think the argument that she had to burn KL is a bad one though. Her father wasn't hated because he was a Targ. It was because he was cruel and killed people. Wiping out a city is just going to breed hate against her. We've already seen that some of her greatest Westerosi supporters, like Jon and Tyrion, are sickened by what happened.

---

So play out how she rules if she doesnt do something absolutely radical and terrifying. Wheel breaking.


Look at the way grey worm and missandre are even planning to leave when the war is over - they are hated and uncomfortable too.

Look back at what happened to every character to ever aspire or gain that throne. Look back at what happened to every baby with a name that threatens the throne.

Only way to survive is to destroy the power of all the houses of the west and maybe even end the feudal system.

cbr said:

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The Dog Lord said:

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Urban Ag said:

---

I think all of the events from the past seven seasons/books, the betrayals, the fact that she gave so much to save Westeros and is still treated with disdain, all of the trusted friends she has lost.......the realization hit her she would always be a foreigner to all of Westeros (sans maybe the Dornish), as foreign as the Dothraki and Unsullied. She's a dragon of Old Valyria, more Dothraki than Westerosi, and like the Targs of old she came to conquer. She tried it Tyrion's way. She tried it Varys's way. She tried it Jon's way. And all it has brought her is loss and she is no the more loved than before she even showed up and saved the continent from the WW.

She breaks the wheel by destroying KL.

Yes, it needed more episodes to build up. But here we are just the same.

---

I disagree with this. She had a lot of support against Cersei from the beginning. Granted support is not love, but still. Then she had men in the North toasting her for saving them. She may have had the beginning of "love" from the kingdom least likely to love an outsider. Sure, they'd never love her like Jon, but she had only been there for a hot minute.

I will agree that she always be viewed at least partially as a foreigner. Aegon the Conqueror faced rebellions even after he had consolidate power over most of Westeros, and Dorne wasn't brought into the kingdom until much later. The one thing she had on her side though, was that the Targaryens had a history in Westeros at this time, whereas Aegon was the first to rule over it.

I still the think the argument that she had to burn KL is a bad one though. Her father wasn't hated because he was a Targ. It was because he was cruel and killed people. Wiping out a city is just going to breed hate against her. We've already seen that some of her greatest Westerosi supporters, like Jon and Tyrion, are sickened by what happened.

---

So play out how she rules if she doesnt do something absolutely radical and terrifying. Wheel breaking.


Look at the way grey worm and missandre are even planning to leave when the war is over - they are hated and uncomfortable too.

Look back at what happened to every character to ever aspire or gain that throne. Look back at what happened to every baby with a name that threatens the throne.

Only way to survive is to destroy the power of all the houses of the west and maybe even end the feudal system.

---

This is how I see it

Visually these last few seasons look fantastic. Previous ones probably won't age well, but the character interactions are awesome

Texaggie7nine said:

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If she tries to rule Westeros by fear, then she will haft to always fear someone trying to take her out.

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Lol, the whole point of the show is that everyone is always taking everyone out anyway, and that they have all been after her her whole life anyway. The thing she has that no one else does is dragons and the ability to wipe out whole cities.

Notice no one has attacked america since we wiped out 2 cities except some psycho arabs.

No matter how you play it, she's increasing her odds dramatically by burning th city.

The Dog Lord said:

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Urban Ag said:

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I think all of the events from the past seven seasons/books, the betrayals, the fact that she gave so much to save Westeros and is still treated with disdain, all of the trusted friends she has lost.......the realization hit her she would always be a foreigner to all of Westeros (sans maybe the Dornish), as foreign as the Dothraki and Unsullied. She's a dragon of Old Valyria, more Dothraki than Westerosi, and like the Targs of old she came to conquer. She tried it Tyrion's way. She tried it Varys's way. She tried it Jon's way. And all it has brought her is loss and she is no the more loved than before she even showed up and saved the continent from the WW.

She breaks the wheel by destroying KL.

Yes, it needed more episodes to build up. But here we are just the same.

---

I disagree with this. She had a lot of support against Cersei from the beginning. Granted support is not love, but still. Then she had men in the North toasting her for saving them. She may have had the beginning of "love" from the kingdom least likely to love an outsider. Sure, they'd never love her like Jon, but she had only been there for a hot minute.

I will agree that she always be viewed at least partially as a foreigner. Aegon the Conqueror faced rebellions even after he had consolidate power over most of Westeros, and Dorne wasn't brought into the kingdom until much later. The one thing she had on her side though, was that the Targaryens had a history in Westeros at this time, whereas Aegon was the first to rule over it.

I still the think the argument that she had to burn KL is a bad one though. Her father wasn't hated because he was a Targ. It was because he was cruel and killed people. Wiping out a city is just going to breed hate against her. We've already seen that some of her greatest Westerosi supporters, like Jon and Tyrion, are sickened by what happened.

---

That's really a reach.

She had the north support ONLY because of Jon. they even argued about it with Jon when he returned and he basically forced them into accepting it because he bent the knee. Several houses made counter arguments it was just that Jon shot them down. Sansa was arguing against it the entire time.

The Tyrells are the only major house to side with Dany voluntarily. And they were quickly nullified by the Lannisters. The Arryn's went to support Jon in the north before Dany came and were just keeping that pledge not pledging to Dany.


Nobody else in Westeros was inclined to move against Cersei at all.
Dorne was doing nothing
The Tarlys and Tullys and were sided with Cersei.
The Martells are pretty much all dead.
The Baratheons are gone other than one man Gendry
The Freys are gone.
The bulk of the iron island sided with Cersei thru Euron, Yara had 3 ships and no army or navy.

And toasting her - briefly at best after the BoW. It was a toast of formality then they resumed congratulating each other and Arya and just celebrating not dying. It was so awkward and nobody would talk to her so she left. followed by the freefolk saying bye we are outta here.

I can't help wondering if you really believe as passionately in this argument as your posting would suggest, or if you're just doubling down on the challenge to keep this line of discussion going in perpetuity.

New Rockstars and InDeepGeek had excellent analyses of this last episode. One of the comments was

Cersei: I blew up the Sept of Baylor and everyone in it with wildfire

Danerys: Hold my beer

Sorry if that's old news here

Zombie Jon Snow said:

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The Dog Lord said:

---

Urban Ag said:

---

I think all of the events from the past seven seasons/books, the betrayals, the fact that she gave so much to save Westeros and is still treated with disdain, all of the trusted friends she has lost.......the realization hit her she would always be a foreigner to all of Westeros (sans maybe the Dornish), as foreign as the Dothraki and Unsullied. She's a dragon of Old Valyria, more Dothraki than Westerosi, and like the Targs of old she came to conquer. She tried it Tyrion's way. She tried it Varys's way. She tried it Jon's way. And all it has brought her is loss and she is no the more loved than before she even showed up and saved the continent from the WW.

She breaks the wheel by destroying KL.

Yes, it needed more episodes to build up. But here we are just the same.

---

I disagree with this. She had a lot of support against Cersei from the beginning. Granted support is not love, but still. Then she had men in the North toasting her for saving them. She may have had the beginning of "love" from the kingdom least likely to love an outsider. Sure, they'd never love her like Jon, but she had only been there for a hot minute.

I will agree that she always be viewed at least partially as a foreigner. Aegon the Conqueror faced rebellions even after he had consolidate power over most of Westeros, and Dorne wasn't brought into the kingdom until much later. The one thing she had on her side though, was that the Targaryens had a history in Westeros at this time, whereas Aegon was the first to rule over it.

I still the think the argument that she had to burn KL is a bad one though. Her father wasn't hated because he was a Targ. It was because he was cruel and killed people. Wiping out a city is just going to breed hate against her. We've already seen that some of her greatest Westerosi supporters, like Jon and Tyrion, are sickened by what happened.

---

That's really a reach.

She had the north support ONLY because of Jon. they even argued about it with Jon when he returned and he basically forced them into accepting it because he bent the knee. Several houses made counter arguments it was just that Jon shot them down. Sansa was arguing against it the entire time.

The Tyrells are the only major house to side with Dany voluntarily. And they were quickly nullified by the Lannisters. The Arryn's went to support Jon in the north before Dany came and were just keeping that pledge not pledging to Dany.


Nobody else in Westeros was inclined to move against Cersei at all.
Dorne was doing nothing
The Tarlys and Tullys and were sided with Cersei.
The Martells are pretty much all dead.
The Baratheons are gone other than one man Gendry
The Freys are gone.
The bulk of the iron island sided with Cersei thru Euron, Yara had 3 ships and no army or navy.

And toasting her - briefly at best after the BoW. It was a toast of formality then they resumed congratulating each other and Arya and just celebrating not dying. It was so awkward and nobody would talk to her so she left. followed by the freefolk saying bye we are outta here.

---

The Tyrells and Dorne both joined her at the beginning and helped ferry her back to Westeros. They both had large, mostly untouched armies. The Tarlys aren't a large group, but Papa Tarly is a great general. The Tullys were not sided with Cersei, but they had basically been taken out of play by the Lannisters. I believe Edmure is still under house arrest, and Riverrun may still be occupied by Lannisters (they've basically ignored it since last season though).

All Cersei had was her army and Eurons folks (which are unmatched on the sea). Dany had a decisive advantage even before the North and Vale joined later.

Fenrir said:

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She had every relevant and powerful person left alive in westeros on her side except cersei. She defeated cersei easily.

There is literally no benefit to burning the city down at that point. It's nonsensical to argue that it does. She will almost assuredly have more enemies now as a result of her actions.

The point that she has a dragon just as easily supports the argument that she didn't have to do anything after the surrender. Everyone saw drogon roast an entire army in a matter of seconds. Ruling by fear was a given at that point.

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Burning opposing armies, and even saving the entire freaking world didnt budge *anyone* in her favor except the fool jon, who doesnt understand the game at all, has already naively been murdered by his own people once, just like ned. And rob.

Politicking lords and killing soldiers brought nothing but abject failure.

No one fears the dragon enough.

But if the armies see that their entire cities and families will burn with them, they will stay down long enough for dany to show she will bring them a better life.

I dont see any choice.

This should be fun

AstroAg17 said:

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Has the plot of the last episode been leaked?

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Nope

AstroAg17 said:

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Has the plot of the last episode been leaked?

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Yes. Definitely.

I assume this was posted a couple of days ago when the thread was moving at a page a minute pace but here's a pretty good rewrite of the Battle of Winterfell.

Season 8 to-date has received the WORST rotten tomatoes rating in the history of the show at 71%. The previous low for ANY season was 91%. Telling.



Here is another good video analyzing what many on here have said: the Daenarys character turnaround from breaker of chains to genocide-er was poorly developed. The breadcrumbs of that development were French Revolution sized.

Meh.

her support in Westeros breaks down like this:

Dorne - want Lannisters dead
Highgarten - want Lannisters dead
The North - want Lanniesters dead, oh and also need a really big army and dragons to defeat the army of the dead, and yeah, Jon fell in love with the magic kitty (it happens)
Riverlands - who cares, they all dead
Stormlands - same
The West - Lannisters
Iron Islands - split at best

So he fact is, Dany's alliances in Westeros were never that strong nor were they ever truly built on "believing in Dany". They were convenience needs.

I have also never argued that Dany had no other choice but to burn KL. I have argued as to why she made that choice.

Just a show people. Just a show.