****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******

pagerman @ work
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Jon has several instances of deja vu throughout the episode, whereupon Bran walks up to him and offers him a red pill or a blue pill. Once safely on board the Nebuchadnezzar, Neo walks up to Jon, drops a "whoa", and we all realize the whole season has been an intricate ad for John Wick 3.
“I think since Trump doesn’t drink, lighting up a–holes on Twitter is his Cognac before bed.” - Dennis Miller
pete_claw98
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Quick comment.

How awesome would it have been if Dany finds Tyrion setting Jaime free and burns them both? Destroys all fan stories but that causes her to go mad and flies off to burn everything.

Jon sees it and pulls the northern army out before the battle. That allows him to have an army after the melee.

jenn96
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BarKeep_03 said:



I can't stop laughing at this. It does a better job of explaining why people are frustrated with this season than a 10,000 word essay.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Ban Cow Gas
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I'm guessing the Episode 6 spoilers are mainstream now. Saw an oddly specific "prediction" post from that one High School classmate we forgot to delete on Facebook.
PDEMDHC
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JCRiley09
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How many times has that gif been posted this week?
combat wombat™
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Many. But to be fair, this thread is damned near impossible to keep up so I cut people slack for posting something that was posted yesterday... 4 pages ago.
Social Media Influencer
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Yeah, i've been active in this thread but I can still miss like 5-10 pages at a time.
Urban Ag
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Brian Earl Spilner said:


This is outstanding and almost completely aligns with why I have been onboard with the where the "GOT" portion of this story has gone. It's all the culmination of all the leads ups going back to S1 that got us to the point that Dany goes nuts on KL. If you're in my camp that "the turn" was a natural progression this makes a lot of sense. It's been building for years. Great take.

Doesn't excuse the other problems with the last few seasons but makes a hell of a lot of sense. If you have 20 minutes to spare.
Cromagnum
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Suspect that this will not stay up on YT long.

benchmark
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Episode IV said:

In the books it's "Fate is Inexorable", but I suppose TV audiences are too dumb to understand that.

I love The Sword Song / Saxon Chronicles, but I think Bernard Cornwell's best work is his "Arthur the Warlord" series set in 4th Century Wales. I am halfway through the first "Archer Series / Grail Quest" book set during The Hundred Years' War in 14th Century England & France...

In The Last Kingdom the only thing I think they didn't really nail was the casting for Uhtred. The actor playing Alfred is spot on. The actor playing Uhtred is good enough in the part, but doesn't match quite as well with the Uhtred of the books - who is much bigger and stronger and cunning. The also nailed Father Beorca - he's exactly as I imagined him to be.
The ladies beg to differ on your opinion of the actor playing Uhtred...says Mrs. Benchmark
JJxvi
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I'm pretty sure the main criteria for casting uhtred was "make him like Jon Snow"
benchmark
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JJxvi said:

I'm pretty sure the main criteria for casting uhtred was "make him like Jon Snow"
Mrs. says "Who cares?" LOL
Zombie Jon Snow
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Urban Ag said:

Brian Earl Spilner said:


This is outstanding and almost completely aligns with why I have been onboard with the where the "GOT" portion of this story has gone. It's all the culmination of all the leads ups going back to S1 that got us to the point that Dany goes nuts on KL. If you're in my camp that "the turn" was a natural progression this makes a lot of sense. It's been building for years. Great take.

Doesn't excuse the other problems with the last few seasons but makes a hell of a lot of sense. If you have 20 minutes to spare.

Yes this certainly reinforces the perspective that she always had this in her and the signs were always there. It even touched on every single touchstone those of us in that camp have mentioned. But it did a great job of showing parallel aspects of the two queens that we have not delved into much.

The examination of a couple of other aspects was illuminating to me as well:

1. her real goal being fulfilling her destiny (harkening back to medieval rulers chosen by God) and not ruling people benevolently but conquering
and
2. her willingness to resort to violence is known - but they show her dispassionate reaction to violence against others including and starting with her brother - that others are lesser and not immune like her because she is destined and chosen



Texaggie7nine
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It's well thought out and does make good points. However, we have not seen one instance of Dany willfully killing innocent women and children to get at her enemies or for revenge.

It is still a giant leap to go from enjoying watching those that have wronged you burn to burning up people who did nothing. I think they chose to go for a big shock rather than show her slowly transition to that state.
Old Tom Morris
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I don't think anyone with half a brain doubts that something like this was in Dany and the potential was brewing. It's all about the final step being such a big one and how quickly/harshly it contrasts to what she was just willing to do in the North.

I think something as simple as losing Rhaegal in battle vs in a dumbass way to Euron that everyone hated anyway would have helped immensely. Save the scorpions as a surprise waiting for her in KL, kill Rhaegal, spread them in different spots in the city, and have her willing to burn every last person and baby in the city to protect her last child, win the war, and become that queen westeros will fear. Make her angry and then choose between regrouping or just burning everything. And she chooses her last child and burning everything.
dlance
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Texaggie7nine said:

It's well thought out and does make good points. However, we have not seen one instance of Dany willfully killing innocent women and children to get at her enemies or for revenge.

It is still a giant leap to go from enjoying watching those that have wronged you burn to burning up people who did nothing. I think they chose to go for a big shock rather than show her slowly transition to that state.
We hadn't seen it, but she has certainly threatened it. She has on numerous occasions threatened to burn cities to the ground (and that was before she has ever lost anything/anyone important to her) but has been talked down. She certainly wouldn't be able to do that without killing innocents. There was no one on Drogon with her to talk her down this time.
gigemJTH12
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Dany killing the innocent mothers and babies in order to obtain the throne as a last ditch effort would have been much more palatable.

The fact that she had the battle won, enemy surrendered, and THEN decided to start bbq'ing babies is what's hard to swallow and understand for me.
Orlando Ayala Cant Read
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My own gripes this season have been pretty limited compared to a lot of you. The pacing is my main issue as well as characters who were not properly sent off i.e..Yara, Bron, etc...

That said, its crazy to me how much buzz there was coming into the season, and how much LACK of BUZZ there is now going into the season finale.
gigemJTH12
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I think it all comes back to the pacing like you said.

No matter what happens tomorrow, even if it's a great ending story wise, there is just no way 80 minutes is enough time to do it justice. I mean, the sibling main characters are across the country from each other? How do you get them to reunite organically?

I have very low expectations for tomorrow. Hope to be proved a little wrong.
Sex Panther
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Orlando Ayala Cant Read said:

That said, its crazy to me how much buzz there was coming into the season, and how much LACK of BUZZ there is now going into the season finale.

Lack of Buzz? People might be *****ing, but there is so much buzz its insane. It's all anyone is talking about.
Zombie Jon Snow
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Old Tom Morris said:

I don't think anyone with half a brain doubts that something like this was in Dany and the potential was brewing. It's all about the final step being such a big one and how quickly/harshly it contrasts to what she was just willing to do in the North.

I think something as simple as losing Rhaegal in battle vs in a dumbass way to Euron that everyone hated anyway would have helped immensely.


vs. what she did in the North many many things have changed since then

1. she doesn't have the best claim to the throne and while she knew that before the BOW she had no time to process it and we didn't know if she even believe it. She basically found out just as the horns sounded the battle was on. And her most trusted bodyguard died in the battle someone she KNOWS loves her.
2. she was not hailed nor loved by anyone in the north - they fought her very step of the way
3. she was then betrayed by Jon/Aegon she feels when he told Sansa and Arya
4. she lost another dragon (whatever you think of how it was done)
5. she had one of her most loved and trusted advisors killed before her eyes by the enemy
6. she felt betrayed by Tyrion when he did not come to her about Jon/Aegon and went to Varys instead (behind her back)
7. she was betrayed and perhaps even poisoned by Varys
8. she felt betrayed by Tyrion again about Jamie - just meaning he was captured returning to KL and Cersei (talk about a quick reversal of direction)
9. and finally it is likely she knew about Tyrion letting Jamie escape before the battle as well


3 huge deaths - Missandei, Jorah, Rhaegal
3 betrayals - Jon/Aegon, Tyrion more than once, Varys
No love from anyone
Lost her inside rail position for the throne on the homestretch


It really is not a question of whether it was always possible - on that we agree.

The only question is if the turn was justified. That's sort of more of a philosophical question. If the seeds were always there, were those deaths and betrayals and the sense of despair enough??

To me - yes unequivocally.

And we may find out more after the fact here - they may reveal things in the finale that Dany knew or felt that we were unaware of. And they did not show them up front because it would give it away.

But I think the issue here is not whether she was capable, nor whether it was morally justified. I think the entire issue is one of self projection. I just think 99.9999% of people putting themselves in the same position even given all that happened would NOT do that. But she did. To rational people, irrational steps are never justified. But you can't just assume she is rational at that moment just based on what she has done in the past. She snapped. And people don't like that (particularly for a character many liked or loved and hoped would be different).

From a storytelling point of view too - as watchers - narratively we want more morally justifiable reasons. But that isn't always the case (in real life). People snap and we don't know why - hundreds and hundreds of things happen along the way none of which made them snap.

It's like saying any serial killer always had it in them and showed all the signs in retrospect - but right up until they did it the first time they were not a homicidal maniac. Something or some things trigger that first time.

It's like every news story about some nut job mass murderer or spree killer - the signs were always there and yet nobody saw it coming or did anything to stop it. Because we rely on the fact that 99.9999% of people don't snap.



Brian Earl Spilner
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In honor of GoT ending this weekend, what are your top 5 favorite moments in GoT?

1. Battle of the *******s (Namely Jon pulling out his sword for a final stand against the cavalry charge)
2. Hardhome battle
3. Light of the Seven scene (Trial and sept explosion)
4. Red Wedding
5. Tower of Joy scene, transitioning to King in the North scene

Honorable mentions:
Battle of Blackwater
Winter arrives for House Frey (Arya throat slice)
Tyrion trial speech
Viper vs Mountain
cbr
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gigemJTH12 said:

Dany killing the innocent mothers and babies in order to obtain the throne as a last ditch effort would have been much more palatable.

The fact that she had the battle won, enemy surrendered, and THEN decided to start bbq'ing babies is what's hard to swallow and understand for me.
I keep hearing this but i honestly dont understand it. It was literally her only choice.

She cant rule in kings landing. She'll be betrayed in that snakepit like everyone else has.

She cant rule the west at all unless she convinces the common people directly that they can never afford to follow any lord against her, and that no fortress is safe to hide in.

She cant survive unless she dos that.

She tried to do that here like she did in the east, no luck.

The only way to survive is to burn that city and scare the rest of the west into complete submission

Her choices twisting her up while the bells rang were 'do i give my life and dreams for these people filling up this snakepit, or do i survive and rule?'


That not only makes sense, its the obvious choice.



And then there is my pet theory that shes already dying of poison, and did it to save jon and let him make a better world. Because jon cant survive kl either, thats been made obvious...but jin could rule from the north and make the world a better place if he had a dragon and the fear that now represents.


Zombie Jon Snow
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Top 5 moments

1. Battle of the Basterds
2. Dany torches the khals
3. The sept and then Tommen
4. Viper v Mountain
5a. The Red Wedding
5b. Hodor/ the door


Top 5 speeches/dialogue

1. Tyrions trial
2. Olenna's last moments with Jamie
3. Tyrion and Oberyn in the cells
4. Jamie explaining the kinglsayer to Brienne in the baths
5a. Catelyns monologue about Jon Snow
5b. Jon Snow meets Dany

Old Tom Morris
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I think the fact Rhaegal got taken out as easy as he did undermines this strategy though. Without Drogon, she's toast. So to speak. Another reason why I think killing Rhaegal in the major battle for KL would have been helpful vs. a cheap shot ambush.
cbr
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Old Tom Morris said:

I think the fact Rhaegal got taken out as easy as he did undermines this strategy though. Without Drogon, she's toast. So to speak. Another reason why I think killing Rhaegal in the major battle for KL would have been helpful vs. a cheap shot ambush.
I hated 4 including the cheap shot ambush.. so i agree.

But though a dragon can be ambushed if you throw massive resources at it, no such luck if the dragons come for you.
Fenrir
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If anything the politician snake types are more motivated to get rid of her now.

The idea that nuking the capitol somehow will make people fall more in line than just burning the keep to the ground doesn't hold water for me.
cbr
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Zombie Jon Snow said:


Solid choices-

Top 5 moments

1. Battle of the Basterds
2. Dany torches the khals
3. The sept and then Tommen
4. Viper v Mountain
5a. The Red Wedding
5b. Hodor/ the door

Ill add

dany frees the unsullied
and an unpopular one - dany decides to save herself/jon/prospects for a better world by torching kl

Top 5 speeches/dialogue

1. Tyrions trial
2. Olenna's last moments with Jamie
3. Tyrion and Oberyn in the cells
4. Jamie explaining the kinglsayer to Brienne in the baths
5a. Catelyns monologue about Jon Snow
5b. Jon Snow meets Dany


cbr
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Fenrir said:

If anything the politician snake types are more motivated to get rid of her now.

The idea that nuking the capitol somehow will make people fall more in line than just burning the keep to the ground doesn't hold water for me.
This is a feudal society where all the lords are generally ****ty to their people. The lords' wars have killed thousands and thousands of soldiers and innocent men women and chldren since the king died and the 'game of thrones' kicked back in. Most people dont care who the king or queen is. They chose goffry over ned stark. They chose cersi over every benevolent move dany tried to make.

The dialogue of the show sets this reality as the central theme.

I dont think the stubborn pride that say most texans feel aboit their freedom really applies to these people.

M.C. Swag
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cbr said:

gigemJTH12 said:

Dany killing the innocent mothers and babies in order to obtain the throne as a last ditch effort would have been much more palatable.

The fact that she had the battle won, enemy surrendered, and THEN decided to start bbq'ing babies is what's hard to swallow and understand for me.
I keep hearing this but i honestly dont understand it. It was literally her only choice.

She cant rule in kings landing. She'll be betrayed in that snakepit like everyone else has.

She cant rule the west at all unless she convinces the common people directly that they can never afford to follow any lord against her, and that no fortress is safe to hide in.

She cant survive unless she dos that.

She tried to do that here like she did in the east, no luck.

The only way to survive is to burn that city and scare the rest of the west into complete submission

Her choices twisting her up while the bells rang were 'do i give my life and dreams for these people filling up this snakepit, or do i survive and rule?'


That not only makes sense, its the obvious choice.



And then there is my pet theory that shes already dying of poison, and did it to save jon and let him make a better world. Because jon cant survive kl either, thats been made obvious...but jin could rule from the north and make the world a better place if he had a dragon and the fear that now represents.





This entire post is a theory. You're just making conjectures that have no grounds in the show.

"She knows she'll be betrayed?" What? Because the show made Varys betray her for no reason and now she just assumes everyone is out to get her?

It's just bad story telling. They wanted her to get there with out putting in the work. She was always ruthless; that's a fact. But she never killed innocent people wantonly. Especially for no other reason than "because my feels said so." It's a betrayal of the character they built. It's a betrayal to the audience. It doesn't mean you can't enjoy the "heel turn" but don't fabricate motivations that were never explored in the 7 seasons prior.

Lol "her only choice?" Gtfo here
cbr
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M.C. Swag said:

cbr said:

gigemJTH12 said:

Dany killing the innocent mothers and babies in order to obtain the throne as a last ditch effort would have been much more palatable.

The fact that she had the battle won, enemy surrendered, and THEN decided to start bbq'ing babies is what's hard to swallow and understand for me.
I keep hearing this but i honestly dont understand it. It was literally her only choice.

She cant rule in kings landing. She'll be betrayed in that snakepit like everyone else has.

She cant rule the west at all unless she convinces the common people directly that they can never afford to follow any lord against her, and that no fortress is safe to hide in.

She cant survive unless she dos that.

She tried to do that here like she did in the east, no luck.

The only way to survive is to burn that city and scare the rest of the west into complete submission

Her choices twisting her up while the bells rang were 'do i give my life and dreams for these people filling up this snakepit, or do i survive and rule?'


That not only makes sense, its the obvious choice.



And then there is my pet theory that shes already dying of poison, and did it to save jon and let him make a better world. Because jon cant survive kl either, thats been made obvious...but jin could rule from the north and make the world a better place if he had a dragon and the fear that now represents.





This entire post is a theory. You're just making conjectures that have no grounds in the show.

it is theory of course, thats the fun. But it has very clearly been laid out as a plain roadmap since season 1

"She knows she'll be betrayed?" What? Because the show made Varys betray her for no reason and now she just assumes everyone is out to get her?

Lol, you arent paying any attention at all. kings and hands and spiders were trying to kill her since birth and across the sea as a harmless slave - because of her name alone. Because thats what the game requires.

She came west, tried to show mercy, then gave up and risked everything to save the world, yet despite that tarlys would rather burn for cersi than join her, cersi and kl would rather die in a zombie apocalypse than side with her, her friendship offers rejected by sansa, her trust betrayed by jon, her efforts to play the game all ended in disaster,

all the smart charcters knew she had to burn kl and send a message.

varys tried to poison her because he knew her only choice was to burn kl.

It's just bad story telling. They wanted her to get there with out putting in the work.

I honestly think if you rewatch this series itll blow your mind how strongly this was laid out. I binged it and rewatched some and its subtle but undeniable.

She was always ruthless; that's a fact. But she never killed innocent people wantonly.

In the east they werent all trying to kill her for her name - and she could turn the people against their lords easily. In the west theyll never let her live, anywhere, and the people chose to follow those scheming lords that would kill her instead of turning to her vision of a better world.

Especially for no other reason than "because my feels said so."

Lol - 'these people will never rest till i'm dead' is a pretty damned good reason.


It's a betrayal of the character they built. It's a betrayal to the audience. It doesn't mean you can't enjoy the "heel turn" but don't fabricate motivations that were never explored in the 7 seasons prior.

Rewatch and you'll see foundation laid out inexorably through out the show.

Lol "her only choice?" Gtfo here


its a freackin tv show. No need to be rude
I binged this sucker to get here and i guaranty you could splice scenes hours long laying this specific roadmap to her not just burning kl, but hurning it for the exact reason i theorize.
Urban Ag
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I think all of the events from the past seven seasons/books, the betrayals, the fact that she gave so much to save Westeros and is still treated with disdain, all of the trusted friends she has lost.......the realization hit her she would always be a foreigner to all of Westeros (sans maybe the Dornish), as foreign as the Dothraki and Unsullied. She's a dragon of Old Valyria, more Dothraki than Westerosi, and like the Targs of old she came to conquer. She tried it Tyrion's way. She tried it Varys's way. She tried it Jon's way. And all it has brought her is loss and she is no the more loved than before she even showed up and saved the continent from the WW.

She breaks the wheel by destroying KL.

Yes, it needed more episodes to build up. But here we are just the same.
Zombie Jon Snow
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cbr said:

M.C. Swag said:

cbr said:

gigemJTH12 said:

Dany killing the innocent mothers and babies in order to obtain the throne as a last ditch effort would have been much more palatable.

The fact that she had the battle won, enemy surrendered, and THEN decided to start bbq'ing babies is what's hard to swallow and understand for me.
I keep hearing this but i honestly dont understand it. It was literally her only choice.

She cant rule in kings landing. She'll be betrayed in that snakepit like everyone else has.

She cant rule the west at all unless she convinces the common people directly that they can never afford to follow any lord against her, and that no fortress is safe to hide in.

She cant survive unless she dos that.

She tried to do that here like she did in the east, no luck.

The only way to survive is to burn that city and scare the rest of the west into complete submission

Her choices twisting her up while the bells rang were 'do i give my life and dreams for these people filling up this snakepit, or do i survive and rule?'


That not only makes sense, its the obvious choice.



And then there is my pet theory that shes already dying of poison, and did it to save jon and let him make a better world. Because jon cant survive kl either, thats been made obvious...but jin could rule from the north and make the world a better place if he had a dragon and the fear that now represents.





This entire post is a theory. You're just making conjectures that have no grounds in the show.

it is theory of course, thats the fun. But it has very clearly been laid out as a plain roadmap since season 1

"She knows she'll be betrayed?" What? Because the show made Varys betray her for no reason and now she just assumes everyone is out to get her?

Lol, you arent paying any attention at all. kings and hands and spiders were trying to kill her since birth and across the sea as a harmless slave - because of her name alone. Because thats what the game requires.

She came west, tried to show mercy, then gave up and risked everything to save the world, yet despite that tarlys would rather burn for cersi than join her, cersi and kl would rather die in a zombie apocalypse than side with her, her friendship offers rejected by sansa, her trust betrayed by jon, her efforts to play the game all ended in disaster,

all the smart charcters knew she had to burn kl and send a message.

varys tried to poison her because he knew her only choice was to burn kl.

It's just bad story telling. They wanted her to get there with out putting in the work.

I honestly think if you rewatch this series itll blow your mind how strongly this was laid out. I binged it and rewatched some and its subtle but undeniable.

She was always ruthless; that's a fact. But she never killed innocent people wantonly.

In the east they werent all trying to kill her for her name - and she could turn the people against their lords easily. In the west theyll never let her live, anywhere, and the people chose to follow those scheming lords that would kill her instead of turning to her vision of a better world.

Especially for no other reason than "because my feels said so."

Lol - 'these people will never rest till i'm dead' is a pretty damned good reason.


It's a betrayal of the character they built. It's a betrayal to the audience. It doesn't mean you can't enjoy the "heel turn" but don't fabricate motivations that were never explored in the 7 seasons prior.

Rewatch and you'll see foundation laid out inexorably through out the show.

Lol "her only choice?" Gtfo here


its a freackin tv show. No need to be rude
I binged this sucker to get here and i guaranty you could splice scenes hours long laying this specific roadmap to her not just burning kl, but hurning it for the exact reason i theorize.


oddly i think a big part of the issue here is ..... GRRM hid it so well. He laid it all out there but in such a way that it was not a foregone conclusion. but retrospect I think you have to come to the conclusion that it was always the ending. Just like Hodor and the door it was so subtle and yet so incredible but on a larger scale.

That video posted above is amazing in just 20 minutes laying out all of the Cersei and Dany parallels.

Now I do think GRRM will do it better justice in the way she breaks down - remember other than if they were overt with someone's inner dialogue literally being spoken aloud for the viewer which GOT never does - we are not privy to her thoughts. The books spend a lot of time on people's thoughts, dreams, etc.

Heck in the books we already have more challenges for her from Westeros in fake Aegon and Young Griff.

I have no doubt this was GRRMs intention - but it was not executed as well on TV for various reasons.

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