****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******

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wangus12
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chase128 said:

Is Jon gonna have the balls to confront Dany about her city nuking or is he gonna haul ass back to Tormund?


Well he never has been a coward and speaks his mind.
cbr
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ask again, how can danarys not die?

if she goes back to mereen, the lords of the west will keep trying to kill her, and they will gang up to do it. Dead.

if she goes into hiding? maybe, but no way the most famous person in the world hides with her dragon. I think she'd rather be dead anyway.

if she just kills cerci, then she has to deal with all the plotters and schemers that have it out for her. Dead.

she could have married him, that probably would have worked, she was willing to risk everything for that to happen, but he ****ed that up.

if she just gives up everything she ever dreamed of, and puts jon on the throne? maybe rules her little keep? acts as an enforcer for jon? I still dont think anyone will let her and her dragons live in peace, and he's too dumb to rule for long without her. No one fears Jon. They all think they can play him.
She did burn that bridge, but i think she did the math ahead of time. Dead. Not sure she's willing to do that anyway, but i think she would have if she saw a way it could succeed.

if she lets him live and just be her subject, the lords will either kill him and her, or get him to kill her. they are all already scheming that. Dead.

Everything she learned was that her sole means of survival was to gut the elite and rely on the goodwill of common people she freed.

there was only one way to do that in the west, and it wasnt a pretty start.

so her plan is cower the lords, gain control, then try to show the common people they are better off now than they were before, before their fear wears off.

One thing is for sure, i bet whoever rounds up the little spy network of varys and bealish ends up with a big advantage.




Brian Earl Spilner
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Anyone see the irony in Ned nearly losing his friendship with Robert to save Dany's life, and now Jon will likely have to be the one to end her?

It's like poetry. Except the opposite, I guess.
wangus12
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You're probably putting to much faith in the other lords. Most major players are gone. Smaller houses aren't gonna take the risk. The only reason Robert's Rebellion happened was because you had 2 Wardens (Ned & Robert) + Jon Arryn who they were warded too at the time and who also lost his heir to the Vale. So you had the Warden of the North, East and Stormlands which marched against the Crown. There isn't enough infrastructure left to take down Dany. Only Dorne probably has any full strength army left
Body By Fisher
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I was counting on the little Umber boy to stop her, but Lady Sansa and Jon sent him to his death.

Glover, the new prince of Dorne may be the only legitimate adult Lords out there outside of the main circle who can still command a few troops. Maybe the Tully dork?
bangobango
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cbr said:

bangobango said:

Basically, we can break down the decision to torch all of the city into three possibilities:

1. Calculated military strategy
2. Targaryen insanity.
3. Beeches be crazy

If I am leaving one out, chime in.

I think the way it was set-up, most think it is some mix of 2 and a lot of 3. Dany is upset that her friends and support have died, and Jon rejects her --> she lashes out "hell hath no fury like a woman scorn."

The SJWs out there are freaking out b/c they think it is number 3. I think a lot of book readers and others may be disappointed that they didn't flesh out #2 enough (that's where I think they dropped the ball).

I don't think you can say it's #1 unless she explains that in the next episode. I think it could've worked to do it that way (the way cbr is saying) but I don't think there is any actual "textual" evidence to support that conclusion.

Additionally, if this was a cold, calculated move by Dany, she had to know that Jon would never go for it. The biggest threat to her crown, even before the battle at Kings Landing, was and still is Jon Snow. He could rally all the banners in the seven kingdoms by revealing his heritage and could've taken Cersei down without Dany at this point, because everyone would've followed combination of Jon and Targaryen name.
you left out my entire theory?

4 is: human nature (and thus ' the game') made it a political prerequisite for her continued survival


That is supposed to be what point number one is. Utter and complete destruction to strike terror in hearts of anybody thinking about challenging her, this stopping any further military battles before they start.
bangobango
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

Episode IV said:

chase128 said:

Is Jon gonna have the balls to confront Dany about her city nuking or is he gonna haul ass back to Tormund?


My end game theory is rooted in 2 real world reasons.

1. The show is not rewatchable (I.e. HBO loses money) if in the end Dany sits the Iron Throne (figuratively since it's likely kaput) after what she did. It's always been about Jon Snow and he's what makes this

2. They writers and GRRM want a sad bittersweet ending to stay in line with their style throughout. What would be bittersweet? Jon finally waking up to his enamor with Dany and taking it upon himself to end the madness - as a duty to the realm.


Yeah. And Jon has not had his moment really.

He wasn't at Blackwater or any of the battles south of the Neck.

He had some missions beyond the wall. But even hardhome where he killed a WW ended in full retreat.

He was bailed out in the BOB

He fought valiantly at WF but Arya got the moment.

I mean he was brought back for a reason. I hope.


Didn't you (and others) give me a lot hell for saying this almost exactly after Arya killed the NK?
bangobango
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AustinAg2K said:

bangobango said:

Basically, we can break down the decision to torch all of the city into three possibilities:

1. Calculated military strategy
2. Targaryen insanity.
3. Beeches be crazy

If I am leaving one out, chime in.

I think the way it was set-up, most think it is some mix of 2 and a lot of 3. Dany is upset that her friends and support have died, and Jon rejects her --> she lashes out "hell hath no fury like a woman scorn."

The SJWs out there are freaking out b/c they think it is number 3. I think a lot of book readers and others may be disappointed that they didn't flesh out #2 enough (that's where I think they dropped the ball).

I don't think you can say it's #1 unless she explains that in the next episode. I think it could've worked to do it that way (the way cbr is saying) but I don't think there is any actual "textual" evidence to support that conclusion.

Additionally, if this was a cold, calculated move by Dany, she had to know that Jon would never go for it. The biggest threat to her crown, even before the battle at Kings Landing, was and still is Jon Snow. He could rally all the banners in the seven kingdoms by revealing his heritage and could've taken Cersei down without Dany at this point, because everyone would've followed combination of Jon and Targaryen name.
You think the rest of the Seven Kingdoms are going to rally around another Targaryen at this point? The last two have been nuts.

Also, the writers ruled out #1 in the post show interview.


I think they already are. I think that's what Varys was doing.

There isn't going to be any way Dany can keep the throne without killing Jon. And after Jon and Dany, who is left? Tyrion, Sansa, Bran, Robbyn?

They'd follow a Targaryen before a Baratheon *******. Targaryens ruled for hundred plus years, Baratheons for less than twenty.
Lester Freamon
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I'm catching up from behind, and want to beat this dead horse some more..

FYI - I completely agree with the sentiment you have been expressing and appreciate your well thought out posts. But a lot of the cognitive dissonance comes from the last 1.5 season D&D spent d*cking Dany's character development around because of some dumb*ss Q score tied back to strong female figures when they could have been showing continued incremental development towards madness and evil.

Hell just the episode before she didn't want to be queen of ashes and the episode before that she wasted one of her dragons and half her army trying to save humanity. D&D destroyed all sense of character development and that's what people can't stand.
CapCityAg89
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My guess at "bitter sweet" ...

Daenerys is now "kill any who disagree" insane - PTSD or whatever from losing it on KL. Tyrion takes her out, but is killed by Grey Worm. Unsullied disband. Dothraki go back to Essos or rampage in Westeros.

Arya leaves.

Sansa is focused on the north.

Whomever has received the letters from Varys (Prince of Dorne or Gendry) reveals his secret and forces Jon to take the throne, but he is all alone - his worst fear (no Black Brothers; no Starks).

We see something that indicates the "evil" in the north isn't really dead - only dormant; and that the game of thrones continues (maybe someone trying to talk Gendry into taking back his father's throne)


... All of this was really for nothing.
Zombie Jon Snow
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No. I might have said it wasn't a big deal to give it to Arya - because I assumed his was still coming.

Still true.

But I still didn't like how Arya accomplished it - that was weak.

Broba Fett
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bangobango said:

Basically, we can break down the decision to torch all of the city into three possibilities:

1. Calculated military strategy
2. Targaryen insanity.
3. Beeches be crazy
4. Writers needed to wrap this **** up already.

If I am leaving one out, chime in.

I think the way it was set-up, most think it is some mix of 2 and a lot of 3. Dany is upset that her friends and support have died, and Jon rejects her --> she lashes out "hell hath no fury like a woman scorn."

The SJWs out there are freaking out b/c they think it is number 3. I think a lot of book readers and others may be disappointed that they didn't flesh out #2 enough (that's where I think they dropped the ball).

I don't think you can say it's #1 unless she explains that in the next episode. I think it could've worked to do it that way (the way cbr is saying) but I don't think there is any actual "textual" evidence to support that conclusion.

Additionally, if this was a cold, calculated move by Dany, she had to know that Jon would never go for it. The biggest threat to her crown, even before the battle at Kings Landing, was and still is Jon Snow. He could rally all the banners in the seven kingdoms by revealing his heritage and could've taken Cersei down without Dany at this point, because everyone would've followed combination of Jon and Targaryen name.
Seabreeze
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I'm really starting to wonder if some people on this thread realize that this a TV show and not real life. They should put "No real humans were harmed durring the filming of the episode" for the Blu Ray release
cbr
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'...contrary to what people might think, Daenerys is the only person who has gleaned lessons from past experiences and is making a rational, calculated decision in her conquering of the city.
Quote:

[T]he only rational person, here, is Daenerys. She has experienced rebellions, both for her and against her, and has learned from them; she correctly apprehends that time is not on her side (King's Landing is not going to rebel against Cersei and her allies are all betraying her, which will only continue) and she correctly realizes that the only way to winand not dieis to be a dragon. Without allies who will serve her out of love, she must do what dragons do: eat the sheep.
[Los Angeles Review of Books]
Far from being "mad," Bady asserts that Daenerys made a correct assessment of her dilemma.
Quote:

[E]very scene leading up to the battle shows us a Daenerys who is a step ahead of everyone else; in her seething vengeful fury, there is complete clarity: she knows what she's going to do, she blames others for making it her only option, and she's angry at everyone for what she's about to do [...] If Daenerys wants the Iron Throneand she does want it, it's the only thing she wants and has always wanted, her entire character is built on wanting that one thing to the exclusion of all elsethen she can't let herself be a Ned Stark, having it both ways and dying in the middle ground.
[Los Angeles Review of Books]
A military strategist also weighs in on the reasoning behind Daenerys' destruction of the city and how the assertion of power makes strategic sense in her securing of the Iron Throne...
Quote:

Political considerations necessarily infuse strategic calculations. For Queen Daenerys Targaryen, seizure of King's Landing and the deposition of the usurper Cersei no longer cuts it. Aegon Targaryen (Jon Snow) has a better claim to the throne; he has a base of operations, a narrative of legitimacy, and his own army. Even if Jon doesn't want to be King, people who dislike Daenerys will fight in his name. Dany is no longer the presumptive Targaryen heir and can no longer rely on her family's right to the throne.

She can rely on Drogon, however. Her claim to the throne rests on demonstrating the power of her dragon. With Rhaegalthe dragon Jon had riddendead, she is uniquely capable of making such a claim. Daenerys need not be "mad" in order to see political value in burning King's Landing to the ground.
http://digg.com/2019/game-of-thrones-the-bells-daenerys-review
cbr
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Im only continuing this because i think it dictates how the show will end.

'These are cruel acts, and they may have a purpose: Lords who would otherwise be unlikely to support a foreign invader, especially when news has spread of Jon Snow's hereditary claim to the Iron Throne, must now fear that if they resist Dany, they'll end up as ashes, too.'

'The concept of "Don't mess with us"of being brutal for the sake of deterrencedid it work in the ancient world?

Strauss: Sometimes yes and sometimes no.'

'The bottom line is that in warfare in the ancient world, even if you surrender, your future's not going to be a happy one.'

'Stepping back as a Thrones viewer and a historian, is there any particular historical figure you've thought about a lot with Dany?

Daenerys is a reminder of Joan of Arc. Or of Boudica, the great British rebel against the Romans who rallies her people to fight for their freedom. Boudica was not averse to using violence against civilians: She burns down the Roman capital of Londinium, after all.'

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2019/05/real-history-explains-game-thrones-latest-twist/589357/
bobinator
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You can keep going all you want, and your claim (and a few others) that this was a rational decision would have made sense, but again, that's not what we saw happen on the screen. The writers themselves said it was an in-the-moment decision.

"I don't think she decided ahead of time that she was going to do what she did," Weiss says. "And then she sees the Red Keep, which is, to her, the home that her family built when they first came over to this country 300 years ago. It's in that moment, on the walls of King's Landing, when she's looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to make this personal."

This post episode rationalizing is the whole problem with the writing. We shouldn't need the people that wrote the show to explain to us what just happened.
M.C. Swag
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Imagine if all the events of Breaking Bad were squeezed into the last four episodes, and for the other four and half preceding seasons, Walter White stole cable and only tipped 10 percent at restaurants.

That's Dany's arc in this show.
Lester Freamon
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M.C. Swag said:

Imagine if all the events of Breaking Bad were squeezed into the last four episodes, and for the other four and half preceding seasons, Walter White stole cable and only tipped 10 percent at restaurants.

That's Dany's arc in this show.


Perfect
Render
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This. People tend to bring in anecdotal evidence to defend poor writing. "I knew a guy in real life who acted randomly. So that character's random action is acceptable." Stories don't work that way. You gotta set stuff up.
CFTXAG10
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213 Grove
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

Episode IV said:

chase128 said:

Is Jon gonna have the balls to confront Dany about her city nuking or is he gonna haul ass back to Tormund?


My end game theory is rooted in 2 real world reasons.

1. The show is not rewatchable (I.e. HBO loses money) if in the end Dany sits the Iron Throne (figuratively since it's likely kaput) after what she did. It's always been about Jon Snow and he's what makes this

2. They writers and GRRM want a sad bittersweet ending to stay in line with their style throughout. What would be bittersweet? Jon finally waking up to his enamor with Dany and taking it upon himself to end the madness - as a duty to the realm.


Yeah. And Jon has not had his moment really.

He wasn't at Blackwater or any of the battles south of the Neck.

He had some missions beyond the wall. But even hardhome where he killed a WW ended in full retreat.

He was bailed out in the BOB

He fought valiantly at WF but Arya got the moment.

I mean he was brought back for a reason. I hope.


He was brought back for a reason. Earlier this season or last it was said he was brought back to unite the wildlings with the, crows/northern men to save the wildlings and to unite everyone in the fight for the long night I believe...

Still hoping he gets a moment though
cbr
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So let's move on - how would you end it?


No freaking spoilers here btw.

Knowing what I know now, here is my ending. Most people will hate it.


Dany has a soft moment to try again with Jon, he refuses and it looks like a showdown - but ultimately Arya intervenes in during it to kill Dany. Dany is nearly killed and is maimed.

But Jon was saved by the god of light to save Dany to bring an era of fiery peace, so he does, but dies in the mix blocking the final blow. Arya escapes, burnt like sandor and blind like at the temple, a terrible price for revenge and stepping into the game.

Dany executes tyrion. The onion sneaks off in a boat to be a smuggler again.

Grey worm also dies in the standoff with the remaining lords, leaving her maimed and alone on the throne.

Sansa bends the knee, but is seen writing letters to other lords in her last moment. The game never stops.

Maybe bran seeing a budding white walker baby to remind us Armageddon will someday come again.

The last scenes are a miserable, maimed Dany alone on a throne, then the red bearded guy having a drink and a smile in a sunset with the wolf, and Sam and his baby in some cottage somewhere, proving that the only way to win the game is to never play.







combat wombat™
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cbr said:

So let's move on - how would you end it?


No freaking spoilers here btw.

Knowing what I know now, here is my ending. Most people will hate it.


Dany has a soft moment to try again with Jon, he refuses and it looks like a showdown - but ultimately Arya intervenes in during it to kill Dany. Dany is nearly killed and is maimed.

But Jon was saved by the god of light to save Dany to bring an era of fiery peace, so he does, but dies in the mix blocking the final blow. Arya escapes, burnt like sandor and blind like at the temple, a terrible price for revenge and stepping into the game.

Dany executes tyrion. The onion sneaks off in a boat to be a smuggler again.

Grey worm also dies in the standoff with the remaining lords, leaving her maimed and alone on the throne.

Sansa bends the knee, but is seen writing letters to other lords in her last moment. The game never stops.

Maybe bran seeing a budding white walker baby to remind us Armageddon will someday come again.

The last scenes are a miserable, maimed Dany alone on a throne, then the red bearded guy having a drink and a smile in a sunset with the wolf, and Sam and his baby in some cottage somewhere, proving that the only way to win the game is to never play.








I hope not. What a terrible ending that would be.
jenn96
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cbr said:

So let's move on - how would you end it?


No freaking spoilers here btw.

Knowing what I know now, here is my ending. Most people will hate it.


Dany has a soft moment to try again with Jon, he refuses and it looks like a showdown - but ultimately Arya intervenes in during it to kill Dany. Dany is nearly killed and is maimed.

But Jon was saved by the god of light to save Dany to bring an era of fiery peace, so he does, but dies in the mix blocking the final blow. Arya escapes, burnt like sandor and blind like at the temple, a terrible price for revenge and stepping into the game.

Dany executes tyrion. The onion sneaks off in a boat to be a smuggler again.

Grey worm also dies in the standoff with the remaining lords, leaving her maimed and alone on the throne.

Sansa bends the knee, but is seen writing letters to other lords in her last moment. The game never stops.

Maybe bran seeing a budding white walker baby to remind us Armageddon will someday come again.

The last scenes are a miserable, maimed Dany alone on a throne, then the red bearded guy having a drink and a smile in a sunset with the wolf, and Sam and his baby in some cottage somewhere, proving that the only way to win the game is to never play.









You would love Joe Abercrombie.
Render
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I hope Jon does do the deed and he takes the throne out of a feeling of duty. If that happened the show would come full circle. Ned didn't take the throne all those years ago even though he was more suited for it than Robert. Because of that one decision, lots of bad stuff happened. Hopefully Jon will learn from his spiritual father's mistake.

And with Jon having learned the ultimate lesson of the story, You Can't Always Get What You Want will then play as the credits role.
BarKeep_03
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Bobby B ftw

AgStuckinLBK
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So two thing, but I'm simple:

1. Surprised I haven't seen:

"You Either Die A Hero, Or You Live Long Enough To See Yourself Become The Villain"

2. I feel like when she lands Drogon right before the bells ring. She should have given a speech to the people of landing saying how she's finally home to free them, she's their "Mhysa" but they look at her in disgust, somebody boos her, somebody throws a rock at her and then she flashes back (which we can see) to all of the things that have been causing her to lose it. Then Mad Queen away at that point. Confirms that nobody loves her, nobody cares about her so burn then all.

Maybe too obvious but there's just been a lack of whatever the equivalent of foreplay is for writing this season
Zombie Jon Snow
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Interesting tidbit I noticed on a rewatch of Ep. 5. I don't think it's been mentioned.

The night before the battle in the throne room of DS Dany is talking to Tyrion who is pleading his case for not wrecking the city and killing innocents, etc.

Toward the end of that at one point she says something about Cersei believing Mercy was their weakness. And then she says

"Mercy is our strength. Our mercy is toward future generations who will never be held hostage by a tyrant."

Just thought her emphasis there on future generations - not the current one - was interesting in hindsight. Did she already mentally have justification for not showing mercy to this generation?

PS - i know what the show producers said about her turn. But they've said a lot of other crap too.
cbr
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combat wombat said:

cbr said:

So let's move on - how would you end it?


No freaking spoilers here btw.

Knowing what I know now, here is my ending. Most people will hate it.


Dany has a soft moment to try again with Jon, he refuses and it looks like a showdown - but ultimately Arya intervenes in during it to kill Dany. Dany is nearly killed and is maimed.

But Jon was saved by the god of light to save Dany to bring an era of fiery peace, so he does, but dies in the mix blocking the final blow. Arya escapes, burnt like sandor and blind like at the temple, a terrible price for revenge and stepping into the game.

Dany executes tyrion. The onion sneaks off in a boat to be a smuggler again.

Grey worm also dies in the standoff with the remaining lords, leaving her maimed and alone on the throne.

Sansa bends the knee, but is seen writing letters to other lords in her last moment. The game never stops.

Maybe bran seeing a budding white walker baby to remind us Armageddon will someday come again.

The last scenes are a miserable, maimed Dany alone on a throne, then the red bearded guy having a drink and a smile in a sunset with the wolf, and Sam and his baby in some cottage somewhere, proving that the only way to win the game is to never play.








I hope not. What a terrible ending that would be.
told you most people would hate it. I dont actually think they will do that. too unpopular.

can't see snow being the king though, that's too hollywood disney. If they do that, it's a real copout.
Render
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A medieval Batman-type character would be so cool. He'd be a rich lord who's parents were killed when they were walking King's Landing at night. He trained in the eastern lands, so he has exotic fighting techniques combined with Westeros technology. Now he travels around the continent battling crime.
AgStuckinLBK
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Render said:

A medieval Batman-type character would be so cool. He'd be a rich lord who's parents were killed when they were walking King's Landing at night. He trained in the eastern lands, so he has exotic fighting techniques combined with Westeros technology. Now he travels around the continent battling crime.


You just described Dany

Danys parents - King and Queen
Honed her fighting skills in Essos
Dragons are definitely an exotic fighting style
There is no more crime in Kings Landing
mm98
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

Interesting tidbit I noticed on a rewatch of Ep. 5. I don't think it's been mentioned.

The night before the battle in the throne room of DS Dany is talking to Tyrion who is pleading his case for not wrecking the city and killing innocents, etc.

Toward the end of that at one point she says something about Cersei believing Mercy was their weakness. And then she says

"Mercy is our strength. Our mercy is toward future generations who will never be held hostage by a tyrant."

Just thought her emphasis there on future generations - not the current one - was interesting in hindsight. Did she already mentally have justification for not showing mercy to this generation?

PS - i know what the show producers said about her turn. But they've said a lot of other crap too.


I mentioned this a few pages back. Basically like Dany was willing to hit the ultimate reset button on KL.

But the writers "behind the show" explanation makes it seem like that wasn't intended when they said she hadn't made up her mind until she saw the Red Keep.

Maybe she was 50/50 and that moment she decided to do what she discussed with Tyrion the night before. I don't know. Multiple assumptions could be made.

I still like the episode.
MuckRaker96
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CFTXAG10 said:


just proves that he's LeBron's *****.
Pregame routine: "Yes Mr. James, can I get you a fresh bottle of water?"

He's Ahmad Rashard to Lebron's MJ
MuckRaker96
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bobinator said:


This post episode rationalizing is the whole problem with the writing. We shouldn't need the people that wrote the show to explain to us what just happened.
I'm pretty sure they're doing that as a service to the fans and to help out the dullards who can't figure it out on their own.
jenn96
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Except that this season at least, their explanations are even more WTF than the episodes. Literally half their explanations are variations on "We thought it would look cool/be a surprise." It's actually really frustrating and makes it clear that they don't really respect the story they're telling.
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