There really aren't given the arbitrary and capricious time restrictions the two schmucks running things gave themselves.Quote:
There are lot more things to try before burning all the citizens.
And that to me is the biggest problem.
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And that to me is the biggest problem.
I don't think burning just the Red Keep would be enough. Cersei was the queen. Conquerors always kill the sitting monarch. Lords across Westeros likely aren't afraid.AustinAg2K said:She could have just burned down the Red Keep. That would have been intimidating enough to incite fear in everyone.cbr said:i think the fun debate would be - what were her alternatives?bobinator said:
The issue with your scenario is that they didn't really build that up either. Even the writers said that she decided in that moment to make it personal.
So your "she decided she had to do it because there was no other choice" isn't really what happened, or at least it wasn't what the writers intended.
maybe someone can come up with a better one than my theory....
Or, she could have seiged the city and given the people a chance to revolt against Cersei, which seemed like her original plan two weeks ago, but then they never went through with that.
She could have tried to get the word out about how she saved everyone from the dead. Sure Cersei could have tried to keep KL from finding out, but she can't keep all seven kingdoms from finding out.
It's not like the people liked Cersei. There isn't a single kingdom which likes Cersei. She could have gone in, and just taken out Cersei, and everyone except Sansa would have loved her. If a particular kingdom revolts, take out their leadership.
There are lot more things to try before burning all the citizens.
Same on the second point, in my opinion, though I think this is better than just burning the Keep - turning the peasants on the ruling party is always a good way to scare the ruling party, but I don't know if it would be true, deep-seated fear.
Nothing about saving the world from the dead incites fear.
When she decided she was going to rule with fear, she only had maybe one or two options, one of which was burning the entire city as she did.
Any chance we get Dany giving a reason or two why she went nuclear in the finale? I'm sure Jon will confront her about it.
I agree. Cbr said earlier something about reading the cliff notes to a great novel. I think that is basically what this is. It's the cliff notes. I understand wanting to leave things open to interpretation, but they've left far too much.pagerman @ work said:There really aren't given the arbitrary and capricious time restrictions the two schmucks running things gave themselves.Quote:
There are lot more things to try before burning all the citizens.
And that to me is the biggest problem.
Lol man I swear every time D&D try to explain something controversial it makes it 100x worsebobinator said:
The issue with your scenario is that they didn't really build that up either. Even the writers said that she decided in that moment to make it personal.
So your "she decided she had to do it because there was no other choice" isn't really what happened, or at least it wasn't what the writers intended.
I don't see how this changes that. If anything, it makes it worse. What is the point of living if one day the Queen might decide to come by and torch your entire city? Everywhere she goes now, people will be trying to kill her.Pendragon12 said:I don't think burning just the Red Keep would be enough. Cersei was the queen. Conquerors always kill the sitting monarch. Lords across Westeros likely aren't afraid.AustinAg2K said:She could have just burned down the Red Keep. That would have been intimidating enough to incite fear in everyone.cbr said:i think the fun debate would be - what were her alternatives?bobinator said:
The issue with your scenario is that they didn't really build that up either. Even the writers said that she decided in that moment to make it personal.
So your "she decided she had to do it because there was no other choice" isn't really what happened, or at least it wasn't what the writers intended.
maybe someone can come up with a better one than my theory....
Or, she could have seiged the city and given the people a chance to revolt against Cersei, which seemed like her original plan two weeks ago, but then they never went through with that.
She could have tried to get the word out about how she saved everyone from the dead. Sure Cersei could have tried to keep KL from finding out, but she can't keep all seven kingdoms from finding out.
It's not like the people liked Cersei. There isn't a single kingdom which likes Cersei. She could have gone in, and just taken out Cersei, and everyone except Sansa would have loved her. If a particular kingdom revolts, take out their leadership.
There are lot more things to try before burning all the citizens.
Same on the second point, in my opinion, though I think this is better than just burning the Keep - turning the peasants on the ruling party is always a good way to scare the ruling party, but I don't know if it would be true, deep-seated fear.
Nothing about saving the world from the dead incites fear.
When she decided she was going to rule with fear, she only had maybe one or two options, one of which was burning the entire city as she did.
smokeythebear said:I just want to go on record that the heel turn at the root of 8 seasons of the most popular and successful TV show of all time during the second to last episode is probably going to be argued about for at least the next 10 years, if not the remainder of the week before the new episode airs. Heck, we're talking about a character development story that has been going on for, what, 30 years now?Zombie Jon Snow said:
I didn't tell anyone to shut up. I just said it's a dead horse NOW.
It is - from BOTH sides.
That's all.
It's not like we're arguing about where a bunch of dead guys got big ass chains all of a sudden.
Not to mention it was the second significant "heel turn" of the episode.
Arya innocent little girl to cold blooded killer with a single purpose in mind - her list... For multiple seasons now (save for when she got a bump on the head during the fight against the dead and suddenly went from slaying multiple wights at one time to cowering behind bookcases trying to sneak past them because... well... plot device).
But in the penultimate episode when she is finally on the cusp of reaching Cersei, The Hound uttering a line about "not becoming like me" -- SOMETHING HE HAS TOLD HER COUNTLESS TIMES OVER THE PAST FEW SEASONS AND PROBABLY A DOZEN TIMES ON THE HORSEBACK RIDE TO KING'S LANDING -- turns her back into Puss-In-Boots-Cat-Eyes-Arya just wanting to go back home and abandoning multiple seasons worth of character development.
We keep hearing that some of these sudden character shifts were a result of them simply not having enough time left to flesh out the story -- yet this season has had multiple episodes where upwards of 25% of the damn episode is rehashing the same thing we've already heard in "reunion" episodes or like Sunday night where I think there was literally a combined 30 minutes of random people running through the streets, Arya stumbling around and Cersei just staring out the Red Keep window.
There was still time to have these characters "turns" make more sense, Benioff and Weiss simply weren't up to the task.
That episode was bad. Overly-cliche and completely predictable. Which you can stomach if the predictable conclusions are fleshed out -- but they weren't.
Through Hardhome and even *******s/Winds-of-Winter this was one of the greatest television shows of all time. Intelligently written, intelligently paced... and even when we were no longer being shocked (Ned's beheading, Red Wedding) it still all made decent logical (for a fantasy) sense.
The last two seasons have been stumbling to the finish line. At this point I'm expecting The Hand of God to show up in the last episode to close this out.
Finale gonna hit 20 M?Brian Earl Spilner said:
In terms of multi-platform viewership, HBO has revealed that Sunday's episode garnered 18.4 million viewers across all of the cabler's platforms (linear, HBO GO and HBO NOW), making it the most-watched "Thrones" episode by that metric as well.
Her alternatives were "literally anything else."
Again your "she decided she had to make an example of the whole city" theory is fine, but we didn't see that decision get made either.
And this isn't like the ending of Inception or something where it's supposed to be open for interpretation. In the end it's ended up that way, but that definitely wasn't the intention of the writers.
Again your "she decided she had to make an example of the whole city" theory is fine, but we didn't see that decision get made either.
And this isn't like the ending of Inception or something where it's supposed to be open for interpretation. In the end it's ended up that way, but that definitely wasn't the intention of the writers.
Howland "Deus Ex Machina" Reed to the rescue!!!!!
I was very disappointed in Dany's sudden hate for innocent people and not going directly after the person who she most hated. Cersei certainly didn't care about the citizens, so it wasn't to get back at her.
The only way I can see this being brought to a resolution that makes sense is that Dany fell under the same madness as her dad, who's last wish was to see the city burn.
Perhaps Dany realizes that and knows John has to be the ruler, and is giving him a good reason to take her out.
I just find it hard to see any way Dany came to any emotion or rational decision to burn the whole city after they surrendered.
The only way I can see this being brought to a resolution that makes sense is that Dany fell under the same madness as her dad, who's last wish was to see the city burn.
Perhaps Dany realizes that and knows John has to be the ruler, and is giving him a good reason to take her out.
I just find it hard to see any way Dany came to any emotion or rational decision to burn the whole city after they surrendered.
7nine
here's how I write it.
Everything goes exactly the same to the point where she's up on the perch and makes 'the decision.'
Except at that moment Dany marches the highest regarded/most loyal to Cersei in Kings Landing right outside the Red Keep. Dany flies up to Cersei, scares her and demands her unconditional surrender and to walk out of the RK, it's over, etc.
And while Cersei begins frantically trying to plan her escape, Dany keeps going "WHERE IS SHE?!" and starts burning people 1 by 1 until Cersei gives up. Tyrion didn't have to flip on her prior to the battle if you write it like that. He can wig out as he lobbies for her to stop burning people by once again explaining Cersei won't be affected by it even when it's clear that her reign is over. Dany simply being stubborn but 'in control' is much more her look anyway.
Then you can cut to Cersei using all the skills that got her to the throne to try and weasel her way out, only to end up facing off against Arya & The Hound + throw in Jamie. You still get Hound vs Mountain, then you can play it any way you want. Jamie flips and they try to escape, Jamie kills her. She kills Arya and Hound/Jamie kill her. Do whatever you want based off who you want to live, but Cersei dies.
Meanwhile Dany doesn't know what has happened inside and it leads to some huge moment as she's building rage. Moments before they can get outside and let her know that Cersei is dead, she finally flips out and does something really bad by flaming a big chunk of the civillians or bringing down the Red Keep.
Then you have something to feel from all angles. Her rage grew slowly. Cersei not surrendering is what caused it. She went over the top but not in nearly as horrible a way, and the tragedy is if she wouldn't have done the final bad deed for another 10 seconds, she'd have known Cersei was dead.
Then you could have the "holy ****" reactions of Jon & Tyrion who were pleading wit her to stop outside, + the realization of Arya/Jamie combo (whoever you choose to live) to come outside to say they've done it, only to see the destruction that just occurred or occurred as they got outside.
Start off next episode with them picking up the pieces, Dany feeling alone still and uncomfortable but trying to justify it. Have Grey Worm be on her side and happy she did it, exposing some division in the ranks. Jon continues to play his "I don't want it" role but now he is truly conflicted with her, or she continues down her path of anger with him telling his secret to his family. Use that to ultimately break Dany up from everyone else and lead into to the back 2/3's of the finale which is Dany/Grey Worm/Dothraki & Unsullied vs Jon & everyone else + the aftermath of that.
Everything goes exactly the same to the point where she's up on the perch and makes 'the decision.'
Except at that moment Dany marches the highest regarded/most loyal to Cersei in Kings Landing right outside the Red Keep. Dany flies up to Cersei, scares her and demands her unconditional surrender and to walk out of the RK, it's over, etc.
And while Cersei begins frantically trying to plan her escape, Dany keeps going "WHERE IS SHE?!" and starts burning people 1 by 1 until Cersei gives up. Tyrion didn't have to flip on her prior to the battle if you write it like that. He can wig out as he lobbies for her to stop burning people by once again explaining Cersei won't be affected by it even when it's clear that her reign is over. Dany simply being stubborn but 'in control' is much more her look anyway.
Then you can cut to Cersei using all the skills that got her to the throne to try and weasel her way out, only to end up facing off against Arya & The Hound + throw in Jamie. You still get Hound vs Mountain, then you can play it any way you want. Jamie flips and they try to escape, Jamie kills her. She kills Arya and Hound/Jamie kill her. Do whatever you want based off who you want to live, but Cersei dies.
Meanwhile Dany doesn't know what has happened inside and it leads to some huge moment as she's building rage. Moments before they can get outside and let her know that Cersei is dead, she finally flips out and does something really bad by flaming a big chunk of the civillians or bringing down the Red Keep.
Then you have something to feel from all angles. Her rage grew slowly. Cersei not surrendering is what caused it. She went over the top but not in nearly as horrible a way, and the tragedy is if she wouldn't have done the final bad deed for another 10 seconds, she'd have known Cersei was dead.
Then you could have the "holy ****" reactions of Jon & Tyrion who were pleading wit her to stop outside, + the realization of Arya/Jamie combo (whoever you choose to live) to come outside to say they've done it, only to see the destruction that just occurred or occurred as they got outside.
Start off next episode with them picking up the pieces, Dany feeling alone still and uncomfortable but trying to justify it. Have Grey Worm be on her side and happy she did it, exposing some division in the ranks. Jon continues to play his "I don't want it" role but now he is truly conflicted with her, or she continues down her path of anger with him telling his secret to his family. Use that to ultimately break Dany up from everyone else and lead into to the back 2/3's of the finale which is Dany/Grey Worm/Dothraki & Unsullied vs Jon & everyone else + the aftermath of that.
I like Bunk's ending better.
One of the things I really hated about the end, which I haven't seen discussed at all, is Cersei's complete lack of any sort of plan. She has been the most cunning character in the entire show for seven seasons, and then we get like 3 scenes with her in the final season, and in the final episode she just sits there and does nothing. I would have liked her to have some sort of trap or escape plan.
If you wanted Dany to go all Mad Queen, and kill civilians, have it be a reaction to Cersei. Something where Dany shows a disregard for human life, as long as she gets the throne. That would fit with her character arc. A blood thirsty lunatic does not.
One of the things I really hated about the end, which I haven't seen discussed at all, is Cersei's complete lack of any sort of plan. She has been the most cunning character in the entire show for seven seasons, and then we get like 3 scenes with her in the final season, and in the final episode she just sits there and does nothing. I would have liked her to have some sort of trap or escape plan.
If you wanted Dany to go all Mad Queen, and kill civilians, have it be a reaction to Cersei. Something where Dany shows a disregard for human life, as long as she gets the throne. That would fit with her character arc. A blood thirsty lunatic does not.
I would have written it like this:
Dany isn't eating because she doesn't trust anyone around her. She's proven right when Tyrion finds out Varys was trying to poison her. She screams at Tyrion. She screams at Varys. Kills Varys. Screams at Jon. Jon says "I don't won' it". She says "then prove it by being there in the morning and helping me take the city.
The battle plays out as before. Battle is won, she's on the perch and the bells start to ring. Then Cersei turns to Qyburn and calmly says "do it". Qyburn says "...you're grace, are you sure this is a wi..." Cersei yells "DO IT!".
As the bells are ringing and Dany is letting down her guard a bit because she's officially won, pockets of wildfire start erupting all over the city. Dany mistakes this for the citizens trying to fight back against her forces so she torches them all.
Cersei smirks as she sees the people cry out in agony as she's tricked them into thinking Dany was the enemy.
Dany isn't eating because she doesn't trust anyone around her. She's proven right when Tyrion finds out Varys was trying to poison her. She screams at Tyrion. She screams at Varys. Kills Varys. Screams at Jon. Jon says "I don't won' it". She says "then prove it by being there in the morning and helping me take the city.
The battle plays out as before. Battle is won, she's on the perch and the bells start to ring. Then Cersei turns to Qyburn and calmly says "do it". Qyburn says "...you're grace, are you sure this is a wi..." Cersei yells "DO IT!".
As the bells are ringing and Dany is letting down her guard a bit because she's officially won, pockets of wildfire start erupting all over the city. Dany mistakes this for the citizens trying to fight back against her forces so she torches them all.
Cersei smirks as she sees the people cry out in agony as she's tricked them into thinking Dany was the enemy.
She is the daughter of the Mad King (himself a product of an incestuous marriage) and his sister-wife (product of the same incestuous marriage). Given those facts and the emotional blows of losing Missandei and Rhaegal, finding out that she does not have the best claim to the throne, the realization that the people love Jon but not her, Jon's emotional rejection, Varys' betrayal, Tyrion's failures and other factors I'm forgetting, it's not too far fetched that she may not be quite as rational as we think and could just flipping snap. Just saying.
on a scale of aTmAg to Zombie Jon Snow, where do you fall?
speaking of aTmAg, anyone know where he is at on the grief scale today? Assuming he got a time out?
speaking of aTmAg, anyone know where he is at on the grief scale today? Assuming he got a time out?
In absentia lucis, Tenebrae vin****.
AustinAg2K said:
One of the things I really hated about the end, which I haven't seen discussed at all, is Cersei's complete lack of any sort of plan. She has been the most cunning character in the entire show for seven seasons, and then we get like 3 scenes with her in the final season, and in the final episode she just sits there and does nothing. I would have liked her to have some sort of trap or escape plan.
That's one of my main issues with all of it. This entire season (and likely need to go back to last season to see where it started) has just been constant dumb/bad decisions by these people who have dominated for so long.
You mentioned Cersei...we basically got nothing out of her this year. Zero. A pathetic soap opera death moment. She cowered and didn't even attempt to do anything but run like a scared girl. That was never her, even the less confident part of her she always fought to cover up.
How many dumb things has Dany done this year? She keeps ****ing up. Parked her dragon on the ground mid-battle to get injured. Coudln't help really in the BoW, got one killed by being a dumbass flying around not paying attention, and then did the dumbest most horrific thing we've ever seen.
Jon's the same. Can't get out of his own way. Can't contribute much. Can't step up and be a man and make a decision with Dany. Can't really help too munch in the BoW, can't make a call on taking the throne. Immediately told his secret to ****ing Sansa.
Tyrion has made dumb decision after dumb decision, pointed out by Dany over and over. He continued to make bad decisions all the way up to the last episode.
Sansa hasn't done ***** Hid in the crypts. Didn't help others down there when the dead began to rise. She immediately broke her swear to Jon & told Tyrion.
I agree completely with the sentiment that they wrote out where they wanted things to end, and worked backwords the last season or 2 to fill it in and that's what has led to the inconsistency.
In the glory days of this show, a stupid move by one character was usually marked by a smarter/outclassed move by another. Now it's just dumb to be dumb and move plot al ong.
I picture aTmAg like Viserys Targaryen, and ZJS like Davos Seaworth.
The poison was hinted in the episode by having Varys meeting with the girl from the kitchen that he asked about Dany eating.smokeythebear said:
I would have written it like this:
Dany isn't eating because she doesn't trust anyone around her. She's proven right when Tyrion finds out Varys was trying to poison her. She screams at Tyrion. She screams at Varys. Kills Varys. Screams at Jon. Jon says "I don't won' it". She says "then prove it by being there in the morning and helping me take the city.
The battle plays out as before. Battle is won, she's on the perch and the bells start to ring. Then Cersei turns to Qyburn and calmly says "do it". Qyburn says "...you're grace, are you sure this is a wi..." Cersei yells "DO IT!".
As the bells are ringing and Dany is letting down her guard a bit because she's officially won, pockets of wildfire start erupting all over the city. Dany mistakes this for the citizens trying to fight back against her forces so she torches them all.
Cersei smirks as she sees the people cry out in agony as she's tricked them into thinking Dany was the enemy.
wow dude....AustinAg2K said:The way things have gone down, that's not bittersweet. She is now evil. She is more evil than Cersei, the Mad King, etc. Maybe the only character worse would be the Night King, but I'm not sure that's even true.Urban Ag said:
Or maybe, maybe Dany doesn't die. And that's the "bittersweet" part of it that GRRM has often mentioned. She seats the Iron Throne but everyone she loves and cared for is dead or has abandoned her. She gets what she wanted lost everything that mattered in the process?
she is no more evil than any other character in the series. she is just more powerful. i think ultimately that will be the point.
cerci blew up plenty of 'innocent' people in the trial. That was the only person and moment in time close to her level of power.
what did brann and jamie say - 'when have you ever seen a war that didn't kill thousands of innocent people?... never."
yet another clue in past episodes.
stannis burned his own daughter at the stake.
ramsey tortured people, as did many others.
even arya killed innocent people to survive.
ned and jon executed people to survive.
the night king was evil incarnate, with no purpose - armageddon itself. and even that could not stop the game from getting played against people.
i was too dense to catch in in the first watch... but someone here caught it, and sure enough, second watch there is absolutely no doubt that varys is poisoning Danarys' food. And that is why she is not eating until she can launch the attack.Quad Dog said:The poison was hinted in the episode by having Varys meeting with the girl from the kitchen that he asked about Dany eating.smokeythebear said:
I would have written it like this:
Dany isn't eating because she doesn't trust anyone around her. She's proven right when Tyrion finds out Varys was trying to poison her. She screams at Tyrion. She screams at Varys. Kills Varys. Screams at Jon. Jon says "I don't won' it". She says "then prove it by being there in the morning and helping me take the city.
The battle plays out as before. Battle is won, she's on the perch and the bells start to ring. Then Cersei turns to Qyburn and calmly says "do it". Qyburn says "...you're grace, are you sure this is a wi..." Cersei yells "DO IT!".
As the bells are ringing and Dany is letting down her guard a bit because she's officially won, pockets of wildfire start erupting all over the city. Dany mistakes this for the citizens trying to fight back against her forces so she torches them all.
Cersei smirks as she sees the people cry out in agony as she's tricked them into thinking Dany was the enemy.
**** she probably ate fried goat with the dragon on her flight to Kings landing.
Brian Earl Spilner said:
I picture aTmAg like Viserys Targaryen, and ZJS like Davos Seaworth.
Are there any autistic characters?
Euron dies on the boat, like he should have being a Greyjoy. Hound finds Jaime leading Cersie out. As he prepares to fight, the Hound yells F-off, I want him. Pointing to the Mountain. As Jaime is leading Cersie to escape.... he and Arya fight.
The Hound's words still filling her ear and Jaime saying they just want to leave. Then at this point.....everyone would be happy with whomever dies or lives. Even if everyone escapes because of tre crumbling Red Keep and all.
in the middle of the fight Cersie knocks Arya down but Jaime stops her from Killing Arya and says....No, lets just leave. He still has honor......
The Hound's words still filling her ear and Jaime saying they just want to leave. Then at this point.....everyone would be happy with whomever dies or lives. Even if everyone escapes because of tre crumbling Red Keep and all.
in the middle of the fight Cersie knocks Arya down but Jaime stops her from Killing Arya and says....No, lets just leave. He still has honor......
Brian Earl Spilner said:
I picture aTmAg like Viserys Targaryen, and ZJS like Davos Seaworth.
a lot closer to Davos then to Jon/Aegon for sure. i'm 5 years younger than the actor but more gray/white hair than Davos and easily as grizzled/grumpy. lol
I only made my name ZJS based on his death and being so confident that he was coming back in that gap of seasons. i've got zero in common with the actor or the character.
Cousin Orson. Thmath the beatleth, thmath em. Ku, ku, ku.Sex Panther said:Brian Earl Spilner said:
I picture aTmAg like Viserys Targaryen, and ZJS like Davos Seaworth.
Are there any autistic characters?
Robin Arryn maybe?Sex Panther said:Brian Earl Spilner said:
I picture aTmAg like Viserys Targaryen, and ZJS like Davos Seaworth.
Are there any autistic characters?
So add "Hangry" to the list of reasons for the turn. Hell that's almost reason enough for me. Speaking of which - is it snack time yet?cbr said:i was too dense to catch in in the first watch... but someone here caught it, and sure enough, second watch there is absolutely no doubt that varys is poisoning Danarys' food. And that is why she is not eating until she can launch the attack.Quad Dog said:The poison was hinted in the episode by having Varys meeting with the girl from the kitchen that he asked about Dany eating.smokeythebear said:
I would have written it like this:
Dany isn't eating because she doesn't trust anyone around her. She's proven right when Tyrion finds out Varys was trying to poison her. She screams at Tyrion. She screams at Varys. Kills Varys. Screams at Jon. Jon says "I don't won' it". She says "then prove it by being there in the morning and helping me take the city.
The battle plays out as before. Battle is won, she's on the perch and the bells start to ring. Then Cersei turns to Qyburn and calmly says "do it". Qyburn says "...you're grace, are you sure this is a wi..." Cersei yells "DO IT!".
As the bells are ringing and Dany is letting down her guard a bit because she's officially won, pockets of wildfire start erupting all over the city. Dany mistakes this for the citizens trying to fight back against her forces so she torches them all.
Cersei smirks as she sees the people cry out in agony as she's tricked them into thinking Dany was the enemy.
**** she probably ate fried goat with the dragon on her flight to Kings landing.
Cousin Orson
Robin Arryn maybe?
Robin Arryn maybe?
this is a worthy point to debate.bobinator said:
Her alternatives were "literally anything else."
Again your "she decided she had to make an example of the whole city" theory is fine, but we didn't see that decision get made either.
And this isn't like the ending of Inception or something where it's supposed to be open for interpretation. In the end it's ended up that way, but that definitely wasn't the intention of the writers.
so, if she just kills Cersi, drops the red keep, and lets the lannister army surrender to jon, what happens?
play it out.
unless she and jon are king and queen, how can it end in any way other than death and tragedy for Danarys and probably jon too?
and jon refused that offer.
If everyone in KL is fine, even the armies are largely intact, do you think anyone up north or in the other houses would be too afraid of Danarys to revolt against their masters, instead of suiting up and going to war against her?
or do you think their soldiers would say - **** that my lord, you can ride up there and **** with her all by yourself!
i dont. Varys didnt. Sansa didnt. Cerci didnt. ultimately Danarys didnt. obviously.
They sure will now. Now all Danarys has to do is get over on her own 'friends', and she will survive and rule. Not happily, most likely, but at least she has a chance.
They'll probably get her, but if they do, i expect the series will end with the knowledge that the backstabbing and warring will continue, the wheel will keep spinning, and the game goes on.
D-pete_claw98 said:
Euron dies on the boat, like he should have being a Greyjoy. Hound finds Jaime leading Cersie out. As he prepares to fight, the Hound yells F-off, I want him. Pointing to the Mountain. As Jaime is leading Cersie to escape.... he and Arya fight.
The Hound's words still filling her ear and Jaime saying they just want to leave. Then at this point.....everyone would be happy with whomever dies or lives. Even if everyone escapes because of tre crumbling Red Keep and all.
in the middle of the fight Cersie knocks Arya down but Jaime stops her from Killing Arya and says....No, lets just leave. He still has honor......
I guess it depends on your view for why Dany burned the entire city. If you think she had a valid reason, then she's possibly on par with some of the others. As it was presented in the show, I see no reason for her to burn thousands of people. When Cersei blew up the Sept, she was doing it to destroy her enemies. Ned beheaded people who broke the law. Generally, the innocents who died in war were not targeted, but rather unintended casualties. What Dany did was much more along the lines of the Night King and served her no purpose. She was just causing death to cause death.cbr said:wow dude....AustinAg2K said:The way things have gone down, that's not bittersweet. She is now evil. She is more evil than Cersei, the Mad King, etc. Maybe the only character worse would be the Night King, but I'm not sure that's even true.Urban Ag said:
Or maybe, maybe Dany doesn't die. And that's the "bittersweet" part of it that GRRM has often mentioned. She seats the Iron Throne but everyone she loves and cared for is dead or has abandoned her. She gets what she wanted lost everything that mattered in the process?
she is no more evil than any other character in the series. she is just more powerful. i think ultimately that will be the point.
cerci blew up plenty of 'innocent' people in the trial. That was the only person and moment in time close to her level of power.
what did brann and jamie say - 'when have you ever seen a war that didn't kill thousands of innocent people?... never."
yet another clue in past episodes.
stannis burned his own daughter at the stake.
ramsey tortured people, as did many others.
even arya killed innocent people to survive.
ned and jon executed people to survive.
the night king was evil incarnate, with no purpose - armageddon itself. and even that could not stop the game from getting played against people.
The Lannister Army already did that, before she burned the entire city. They did when they fought in the field last season, and they did it again Sunday. They fought for about 30 seconds, saw the dragon wreck shop, and said, "Eh, nevermind." She already had the fear.cbr said:this is a worthy point to debate.bobinator said:
Her alternatives were "literally anything else."
Again your "she decided she had to make an example of the whole city" theory is fine, but we didn't see that decision get made either.
And this isn't like the ending of Inception or something where it's supposed to be open for interpretation. In the end it's ended up that way, but that definitely wasn't the intention of the writers.
so, if she just kills Cersi, drops the red keep, and lets the lannister army surrender to jon, what happens?
play it out.
unless she and jon are king and queen, how can it end in any way other than death and tragedy for Danarys and probably jon too?
and jon refused that offer.
If everyone in KL is fine, even the armies are largely intact, do you think anyone up north or in the other houses would be too afraid of Danarys to revolt against their masters, instead of suiting up and going to war against her?
or do you think their soldiers would say - **** that my lord, you can ride up there and **** with her all by yourself!
i dont. Varys didnt. Sansa didnt. Cerci didnt. ultimately Danarys didnt. obviously.
They sure will now. Now all Danarys has to do is get over on her own 'friends', and she will survive and rule. Not happily, most likely, but at least she has a chance.
They'll probably get her, but if they do, i expect the series will end with the knowledge that the backstabbing and warring will continue, the wheel will keep spinning, and the game goes on.
I completely disagree with all she has to do is get over on her friends. Which friends are going to follow her? Jon? Nope. Davos? Nope. Tyrion? Nope. Anyone who is sane will not follow her. I would expect pretty much every day for the rest of her life someone will attempt to assassinate her.
If they kill the Onion Knight we riot
I know, that's why I said it. Yet we don't even get the 20 seconds it would take for the payoff of Dany confronting Varys for the plot.Quad Dog said:The poison was hinted in the episode by having Varys meeting with the girl from the kitchen that he asked about Dany eating.smokeythebear said:
I would have written it like this:
Dany isn't eating because she doesn't trust anyone around her. She's proven right when Tyrion finds out Varys was trying to poison her. She screams at Tyrion. She screams at Varys. Kills Varys. Screams at Jon. Jon says "I don't won' it". She says "then prove it by being there in the morning and helping me take the city.
The battle plays out as before. Battle is won, she's on the perch and the bells start to ring. Then Cersei turns to Qyburn and calmly says "do it". Qyburn says "...you're grace, are you sure this is a wi..." Cersei yells "DO IT!".
As the bells are ringing and Dany is letting down her guard a bit because she's officially won, pockets of wildfire start erupting all over the city. Dany mistakes this for the citizens trying to fight back against her forces so she torches them all.
Cersei smirks as she sees the people cry out in agony as she's tricked them into thinking Dany was the enemy.
So what if Bran tells Sansa how the Night King was created...........insert Dragon Glass into Jon's heart (really it could be anybody in Winterfell).
Night King fights the Dragon Queen.
Too much? Maybe in Season 9. Oh, I figure this board could write Season 9 and send it to HBO. ????
Night King fights the Dragon Queen.
Too much? Maybe in Season 9. Oh, I figure this board could write Season 9 and send it to HBO. ????
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