****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******

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bobinator
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I'm not even sure Grey Worm is on her side.
wangus12
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He doesn't have anything left but her. He is on her side. Like someone said early, it definitely looked like Grey Worm didn't like that Jon was trying to stop his troops from following their Queen's lead in killing everyone.
Old Tom Morris
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yeah, Grey Worm is about the only one left in her corner. But he is 100% Team Dany. I think he'd kill every living thing in Westeros for her.
AustinAg2K
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PascalsWager said:

I wonder how many people who think this was an earned heel turn have read the books. Because those that have see to wholly defend it.
I've read the books, and I think it's possible it happens in the books. However, it will be much more thought out with much better reasoning. It won't be, "Oh? The bells are ringing? F' em all!" At the very least, you'll have inner monologue from Dany's perspective which will explain the decision.

There are other parts of the episode which people seem to be glossing over, which also upset people. Such as Varys all of a sudden blabbing to everyone about Jon, Jamie's sudden turn back to Cersei, and Cersei's death, which I think will all be very different. Everyone is focusing on Dany's turn in this episode, and while I didn't like it, it was just one part of what I hated about the episode. There were other sudden character changes, too.
chipotle
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She freed greyworm. He's on her side; especially after the lanisters killed Me-sundae.
AustinAg2K
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bobinator said:

I'm not even sure Grey Worm is on her side.
I agree, but of everyone in the episode he is the most likely to be because of Missandei. Everyone else would immediately try to murder her the second they get a chance. Even Jon. If they have Jon stick to his, "But she's my queen" bit, I'll probably just turn the tv off.
Gig-Em2003
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AustinAg2K said:

Outside of Grey Worm, who also seemed a little blood thirsty, I don't see how any of her advisers support her now. If Jon gets within 3 feet of her and doesn't snap her neck, or take her head off, this show is dumb. There would be no point to try and reason with her now. Davos will clearly not support her. Tyrion is already out. Who will be left on her side?
Based on previews for next week, she's obviously ruling over the city at some point with her army on display, so none of the above will happen. I have very low expectations for a well told conclusion on Sunday.
Rustys-Beef-o-Reeno
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No you won't
But I get what your saying
DSAg44
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wangus12 said:

He doesn't have anything left but her. He is on her side. Like someone said early, it definitely looked like Grey Worm didn't like that Jon was trying to stop his troops from following their Queen's lead in killing everyone.
grey worm has no balls...
bobinator
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That's still not how I took that scene, but maybe. I agree Grey Worm probably isn't going to turn on her, but I'm not 100% sure on that.
gigemJTH12
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I'm not a hater at all. I have liked the season with some gripes here and there.

But my expectations for next week are very very low. I just don't see a well thought out and well executed ending in 80 minutes. Seems like any good and complete ending would need at least 3 more episodes.
cbr
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AustinAg2K said:

Bunk Moreland said:

Good post. I said as much (without Lenin and Robespierre) probably 20 pages back at this point. It just didn't make sense and there were zero stakes for her to make that decision when she did (which DB confirmed in the after-the-show).

Hard to just 'accept' that and be ok cuz #GoT and ZOMG Cleaganebowl! when the entire show led to something and they butchered the turn so badly.
Compare Dany's decision to her dad, The Mad King. He decided to burn down King's Landing after Tywin Lannister turned on him and began to sack the city. It wasn't just a, "Let's watch people burn." It was more of a, "If I can't have the city, no one can." Dany had just won. Her decision is definitely, a "Let's watch people burn." She is not a tragic character. She is a blood thirsty homicidal maniac. That is a major change which wasn't well scripted.

Also, for everyone bringing up times where she did something ruthless, or had some quote about burning a city to the ground, there are just as many times where she saved someone from being raped, or said she wasn't going to burn everything. There are 70 episodes, and she said a lot of stuff. You can pick quotes out to support any position.
honestly, can you debate that she had to WIN against basically ALL the lords of the west, or die? they tried to kill her as a baby. they tried to kill her as a slave. they tried to kill her as a dothraki. they are trying to kill her even now, after she gave up everything to save them and the world they live in.

I think the fact that the lords of the west will kill her unless she breaks them all is simply proven at this point.



so the only question left is, how does she bend all the lords of the west to her will, when their people are willing to burn for them, instead of bend the knee to her?

that's a fair debate.

the only answer she came up with is, teach the people of Kings Landing a lesson for following Cersi, so that no soldier of the west will ever follow any other lord that challenges you.

that's the only answer varys came up with; tyrell came up with; cersi came up with; it seems pretty clear that jamie knew it. sansa seems to have figured that out too, as did arya. Danarys tried every other approach - but achieved nothing but failure, pain and sorrow for all her efforts.

burn those behind the wall, cower the rest, or die with everything you love. that's the only answer i can see.

Cloud
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I'm in the camp that thought episode 5 was fine. Not terrible but not spectacular. Danny going BSC was a bit too predictable, but it was better than some other alternatives.

Here's my one odd prediction for the finale: Brienne, sworn to protect Sansa, will kill Danny.
Brian Earl Spilner
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On the bright side for Tyrion - he's now the tallest Lannister.
bobinator
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The issue with your scenario is that they didn't really build that up either. Even the writers said that she decided in that moment to make it personal.

So your "she decided she had to do it because there was no other choice" isn't really what happened, or at least it wasn't what the writers intended.
jenn96
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ja86 said:

actually, if GRRM is using the war of the roses as an influence. Dany makes a perfect Richard III. Now all we need is a Henry Tudor (House Lancaster) to show up in that last episode and dispose the mad queen and take the throne. Of course Henry (red rose) married a a York (white rose) with the resultant tudor rose that ended the years of fighting.

Which character represents Henry? Could be Gendry, they both come from rough backgrounds...


Needing out here because I love the War of the Roses. And don't forget Henry Tudor was from a line of legitimized bustards...
JCRiley09
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Cloud said:

I'm in the camp that thought episode 5 was fine. Not terrible but not spectacular. Danny going BSC was a bit too predictable, but it was better than some other alternatives.

Here's my one odd prediction for the finale: Brienne, sworn to protect Sansa, will kill Danny.


She becomes the new kingslayer. I like it.
bangobango
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

bangobango said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:

smokeythebear said:

Again, I'm not disappointed that Dany went one a rager. I'm just HINGLY disappointed about how they wrote it out. If you told me Cersei beheaded Missande and Dany turned around, hopped on Drogon, and burned the ****ing place to the ground, I'd 100% believe it.

She was mad at Cersei. Once she killed Cersei, then she could have a moment where she saw that the people didn't love her but only feared her, so she then turns full Anakin and we see real rage build up inside of her. Then I would get it. But we didn't see any hot-headed rage. We saw cold-blooded, calculated, tactical city destruction while purposefully leaving her true enemy untouched and allowing her an opportunity to escape.

Sorry, that just doesn't make sense. Why the F would Dany not go straight to the Red Keep once the scorpions were destroyed?

Boy you guys can sure beat a dead horse.....3 days later same issue.

You aren't going to get an answer. Not one you buy anyway. Move along.




Lol.

Coming from the guy responding to literally every single negative post and even posting spreadsheets on this stuff.

Really?!

Nope. Haven't responded to THAT debate in quite a while in fact I said it has been repetitive and nothing new since first thing this morning. and that there is no convincing either side at this point.

that's why it is a dead horse now. on BOTH sides.

https://texags.com/forums/13/topics/2877532/replies/54245234


the poll is merely to gauge if it was more or less positives. curiosity.

i've had a few responses to naysayers today of "fair" and not much else. that's their point of view. i get it. i just thought we all get it now.


Nice dose of narcissism there to post hundreds of times on a subject, easily more than anybody else save one poster, and then when you get tired of discussing it decide to tell everybody else to STFU and move on.
cbr
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bobinator said:

The issue with your scenario is that they didn't really build that up either. Even the writers said that she decided in that moment to make it personal.

So your "she decided she had to do it because there was no other choice" isn't really what happened, or at least it wasn't what the writers intended.
i hear you.

i think i said it better than they did, but 'personal' is another way of saying what i said - its her or them.

also, i am not sure they wanted to spell it out that clearly, as it sort of spoils the whole ending and subtlety of the show.

sort of like reading only cliff's notes of a great novel.

or maybe i am just being that stupid english teacher overthinking it. but honestly it makes perfect sense to me, and nothing else does. It is logical and tragic -- and that is what makes a great story.
cbr
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Brian Earl Spilner said:

On the bright side for Tyrion - he's now the tallest Lannister.
yeah but he still has to climb for it.
bangobango
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cbr said:

bobinator said:

The issue with your scenario is that they didn't really build that up either. Even the writers said that she decided in that moment to make it personal.

So your "she decided she had to do it because there was no other choice" isn't really what happened, or at least it wasn't what the writers intended.
i hear you.

i think i said it better than they did, but 'personal' is another way of saying what i said - its her or them.

also, i am not sure they wanted to spell it out that clearly, as it sort of spoils the whole ending and subtlety of the show.

sort of like reading only cliff's notes of a great novel.

or maybe i am just being that stupid english teacher overthinking it. but honestly it makes perfect sense to me, and nothing else does. It is logical and tragic -- and that is what makes a great story.


I think you did a better job than the writers are going to end up doing.
cbr
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bobinator said:

The issue with your scenario is that they didn't really build that up either. Even the writers said that she decided in that moment to make it personal.

So your "she decided she had to do it because there was no other choice" isn't really what happened, or at least it wasn't what the writers intended.
i think the fun debate would be - what were her alternatives?

maybe someone can come up with a better one than my theory....

AustinAg2K
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Brian Earl Spilner said:

On the bright side for Tyrion - he's now the tallest Lannister.
True, but now he's solely responsible for all the debts.
AustinAg2K
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cbr said:

AustinAg2K said:

Bunk Moreland said:

Good post. I said as much (without Lenin and Robespierre) probably 20 pages back at this point. It just didn't make sense and there were zero stakes for her to make that decision when she did (which DB confirmed in the after-the-show).

Hard to just 'accept' that and be ok cuz #GoT and ZOMG Cleaganebowl! when the entire show led to something and they butchered the turn so badly.
Compare Dany's decision to her dad, The Mad King. He decided to burn down King's Landing after Tywin Lannister turned on him and began to sack the city. It wasn't just a, "Let's watch people burn." It was more of a, "If I can't have the city, no one can." Dany had just won. Her decision is definitely, a "Let's watch people burn." She is not a tragic character. She is a blood thirsty homicidal maniac. That is a major change which wasn't well scripted.

Also, for everyone bringing up times where she did something ruthless, or had some quote about burning a city to the ground, there are just as many times where she saved someone from being raped, or said she wasn't going to burn everything. There are 70 episodes, and she said a lot of stuff. You can pick quotes out to support any position.
honestly, can you debate that she had to WIN against basically ALL the lords of the west, or die? that is not debatable. they tried to kill her as a baby. they tried to kill her as a slave. they tried to kill her as a dothraki. they are trying to kill her even now, after she gave up everything to save them and the world they live in.

The fact that the lords of the west will kill her unless she breaks them all is simply proven at this point.



so the only question left is, how does she bend all the lords of the west to her will, when their people are willing to burn for them, instead of bend the knee to her?

that's a fair debate.

the only answer she came up with is, teach the people of Kings Landing a lesson for following Cersi, so that no soldier of the west will ever follow any other lord that challenges you.

that's the only answer varys came up with; tyrell came up with; cersi came up with; she tried every other approach - nothing but failure, pain and sorrow for all her efforts.

burn them, or die with everything you love. that's the only answer i can see.


Except she figured out how to lead in every other situation without burning civilians. She has been an outsider her whole life. She has more experience in winning over citizens than any other character on the show.
pete_claw98
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We just needed the final push.

ie when Darth Vader says,"if you won't turn to the dark side then maybe your sister will!"

Strafing the red keep and seeing Jaime with Cersei. Proves Tyrion betrayed her again. She loses her mind on everybody. Burn them all.

Sorry if I spoiled the fact that Luke and Leia are siblings.
smokeythebear
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cbr said:

i suggest you go back and re-watch the series, especially key episodes. i just picked up on a lot of this subtlety. in hindsight, this was a tragedy playing out the whole time, with huge billboards lighting the way to the crying room.
I did a complete re-watch of Seasons 1 through 7 in February and March to prepare for Season 8. Dany has issues with vengeance and power, but she's never killed innocent people.

She burns the witch because she betrayed her and poisoned Drogo and killed her baby.
She burns the warlock at the House of the Undying because he chained her up and were going to keep her imprisoned.
She locks up the rich guy and her maiden for betraying her.
She kills the Masters of Astapor because they were murdering babies and mutilating men.
She crucifies the Masters of Mereen because they crucified children.
She kills the Khals because they plan to imprison her.
She kills the Masters of Yunkai because they attack her with a massive fleet. Even here, she sees that intimidation is EFFECTIVE on a small scale. She shows the men what she can do and it convinces them to follow her instead.
She drops everything, goes to the north and fights for the living, even on the ground swinging a sword herself, just two episodes ago.

Tell me where in Episode 5 the tragedy happened that made her snap? Was it when she single-handedly destroyed the Iron Fleet that had been an INCREDIBLY annoying plot-device the last two seasons (killed Sand Snakes, captured Yara, killed Rhaegal)? Was it when she decimated the most skilled mercenary army in the world, the Golden Company, in a single pass? Was it when she easily destroyed dozens of the most powerful anti-dragon weaponry in the history of Westeros? Where was the tragedy that made her suddenly change her mind from "I'm saving these people from a tyrant" to "I hate these people and they all deserve to die"?

Again, I understand it has been there the whole time. The writers still failed at delivering it. There was no tragedy. She won, yet they had her destroy everything anyways. Are you trying to imply that Dany was an evil person the whole time and only held back her evil motives because she didn't think she could get away with them before?
Phrasing
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tv1113 said:

Smaller sample sizes but rotten tomatoes and metacritic have different viewpoints.

It is probably about as divisive as TLJ is.

"I mean, Led Zeppelin didn't write tunes everybody liked. They left that to the Bee Gees."

-waynes world
smokeythebear
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pete_claw98 said:

We just needed the final push.

ie when Darth Vader says,"if you won't turn to the dark side then maybe your sister will!"

Strafing the red keep and seeing Jaime with Cersei. Proves Tyrion betrayed her again. She loses her mind on everybody. Burn them all.

Sorry if I spoiled the fact that Luke and Leia are siblings.
Yes, exactly!
Zombie Jon Snow
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I didn't tell anyone to shut up. I just said it's a dead horse NOW.

It is - from BOTH sides.

That's all.
Urban Ag
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gigemJTH12 said:

I'm not a hater at all. I have liked the season with some gripes here and there.

But my expectations for next week are very very low. I just don't see a well thought out and well executed ending in 80 minutes. Seems like any good and complete ending would need at least 3 more episodes.
I agree because in going firebug Dany they really painted themselves in to a corner.

If Dany lives, what does Jon and Davos do? They can't conceivably follow her at this point.

If Dany orders Tyrion executed, then what? I can't see Jon do anything less than standing in front of Tyrion at this point. He won't stand there and watch Tyrion die like he did Varys, not after Dany burned the city.

If Dany is killed what do the Unsullied and Dothraki do at that point? Shrug and charter some boats back to Essos. At least they'd need fewer this time. And neither are going to fight for someone else and would surely want to avenge their queen.

I mean, there's plenty of good options of how to close out Jon, Tyrion, Aria, and Dany's stories but the "then what" factor is what seems like the biggest hurdle.

Or maybe, maybe Dany doesn't die. And that's the "bittersweet" part of it that GRRM has often mentioned. She seats the Iron Throne but everyone she loves and cared for is dead or has abandoned her. She gets what she wanted lost everything that mattered in the process?

AustinAg2K
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cbr said:

bobinator said:

The issue with your scenario is that they didn't really build that up either. Even the writers said that she decided in that moment to make it personal.

So your "she decided she had to do it because there was no other choice" isn't really what happened, or at least it wasn't what the writers intended.
i think the fun debate would be - what were her alternatives?

maybe someone can come up with a better one than my theory....


She could have just burned down the Red Keep. That would have been intimidating enough to incite fear in everyone.

Or, she could have seiged the city and given the people a chance to revolt against Cersei, which seemed like her original plan two weeks ago, but then they never went through with that.

She could have tried to get the word out about how she saved everyone from the dead. Sure Cersei could have tried to keep KL from finding out, but she can't keep all seven kingdoms from finding out.

It's not like the people liked Cersei. There isn't a single kingdom which likes Cersei. She could have gone in, and just taken out Cersei, and everyone except Sansa would have loved her. If a particular kingdom revolts, take out their leadership.

There are lot more things to try before burning all the citizens.
smokeythebear
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Zombie Jon Snow said:


I didn't tell anyone to shut up. I just said it's a dead horse NOW.

It is - from BOTH sides.

That's all.
I just want to go on record that the heel turn at the root of 8 seasons of the most popular and successful TV show of all time during the second to last episode is probably going to be argued about for at least the next 10 years, if not the remainder of the week before the new episode airs. Heck, we're talking about a character development story that has been going on for, what, 30 years now?

It's not like we're arguing about where a bunch of dead guys got big ass chains all of a sudden.
Pendragon12
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Urban Ag said:

StringerBell said:

are you sure we didnt see it? in my mind we did see it it was just sped up

saw it when she folks fawned over jon at the post winterfel battle banquet

saw it when she kind of cracked telling jon to deny his past

saw it at the beginning of the last episode where she hadnt eaten and looked like crap

saw it on her face when the bells started ringing

dont get me wrong i woudl have liked the turn to have happened over the coruse of 4-5 episodes to get more depth but i think we did see a shift in her emotional well being
Also shown in the anger in her face when Rhaegal was killed and when Missy was killed. When she threatened Tyrion with death if he made another mistake. Varys got it enough that he committed actual treason and was willing to pay the price. Tyrion got it enough that he released Jamie on his promise to persuade Cersei to leave the city to save lives, and is willing to pay the price for it.

I think plenty of posters on both sides of the coin have stated neither side is going to convince the other at this point. From my perspective, the build up to the turn was there. To others, not so much. That's fine.
I realize there are a bunch of other posts between this one and my reply, but I feel the same way. Yes, it would have been great if they were able to weave the intricacy of showing Dany go insane over, say, 3-4 seasons, but we saw it all this season sped up. You listed the examples for this season, and in previous seasons she's always been walking the line between justice and madness.

I felt bad for her this season. I still feel a little bad for her after her slaughtering of King's Landing. I mean, it was evil, and wrong, and terrible, but she did it because she believed she would never be able to rule unless people feared her. And no one was going to fear her unless she was something truly worth fearing.
AustinAg2K
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Urban Ag said:



Or maybe, maybe Dany doesn't die. And that's the "bittersweet" part of it that GRRM has often mentioned. She seats the Iron Throne but everyone she loves and cared for is dead or has abandoned her. She gets what she wanted lost everything that mattered in the process?


The way things have gone down, that's not bittersweet. She is now evil. She is more evil than Cersei, the Mad King, etc. Maybe the only character worse would be the Night King, but I'm not sure that's even true.
smokeythebear
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AustinAg2K said:

cbr said:

bobinator said:

The issue with your scenario is that they didn't really build that up either. Even the writers said that she decided in that moment to make it personal.

So your "she decided she had to do it because there was no other choice" isn't really what happened, or at least it wasn't what the writers intended.
i think the fun debate would be - what were her alternatives?

maybe someone can come up with a better one than my theory....


She could have just burned down the Red Keep. That would have been intimidating enough to incite fear in everyone.

Or, she could have seiged the city and given the people a chance to revolt against Cersei, which seemed like her original plan two weeks ago, but then they never went through with that.

She could have tried to get the word out about how she saved everyone from the dead. Sure Cersei could have tried to keep KL from finding out, but she can't keep all seven kingdoms from finding out.

It's not like the people liked Cersei. There isn't a single kingdom which likes Cersei. She could have gone in, and just taken out Cersei, and everyone except Sansa would have loved her. If a particular kingdom revolts, take out their leadership.

There are lot more things to try before burning all the citizens.
It's almost as if "burning all the citizens" was actually going to be the least effective option she had...
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