****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******

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bangobango
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Here are my scatter-shooting thoughts.

1. Funny to see some of the biggest defenders come to the dark side this week.

2. Dany's turn was under-developed. This has been there from the beginning, but I think the show producers were too interested into making her a popular and completely likeable character that they put-off putting in the work to show this character turn that should have been done. Like so much the last three season, the ground work for this episode was just not laid out properly, which leaves it feeling very shallow and fake to a lot of viewers.

What is happening now is that the characters are being forced to certain plot points rather than developing to those moments naturally. This is further complicated by the producers keeping characters around or adding to their things to do list b/c of fan popularity.

3. Jon is the central character in this series and he is one of the least developed.

4. The Battle of Winterfell and the Battle at Kingslanding were done out of order. There is little doubt in my mind that originally Dany's turn to the bad side was supposed to proceed the battle with the Night King. Producers flipped the order b/c they did not want to have three episodes without Dany in it (either killed or run off or whatever).

5. Euron and Jaime fight was ridiculous. Ridiculous that Euron was even there and ridiculous that they would fight in the middle of all of that. Why? They were both on the same side for the moment. Just so forced. We've seen people put aside their differences repeatedly to try to survive, hard to believe that they wouldn't both go after Cersei and try to save her and then hash out their differences when things were safer.

Jaime's arch suffers the same as Dany's did. He got too popular. They started making him too likeable. They should've kept showing that he was still an ******* if in the end he was going to come back to Cersei. But the fans wanted Jaime + Brienne and the writers/producers are slaves to fandom rather than the story. Always ruins **** in the end in tv.

6. Perfect example of what I am talking about with the catering to fandom is the Clegane bowl. I have little doubt that the entire scene was nothing but fan service. Yeah, it is cool and all, but it just really kind of *******izes the story. Why did the Hound decide right then that he had to end his brother? How did the Hound even hang with the guy? The Mountain throws Qyburn into a wall and it kills him, but you're telling me that the Hound, who was bested by a woman not too long ago, can go toe to toe with that guy for that long? And why did he feel the need to end him? It kind of seemed like the Hound had found some inner peace and acceptance of his place in the world. He could've stayed at Winterfell and served Sansa, but instead he travels hundreds of miles to invade a fortress -burning- to the ground on a suicide mission to kill his brother? Why? Why now? I feel like that character could have had a more meaningful ending, but b/c everyone on twitter want 'CLEGANE BOWL, GET HYPED!" or whatever, this is what we get instead.

What you are seeing is the pigeon-holing of characters into fitting how the plot is supposed to resolve. It completely *******izes their character arcs and their motivations and it is awkward as hell to watch happen.

A lot of what happened last night would not have been as shocking at the end of season four, but the seasons since then have been increasingly more and more like a Marvel movie with buddy plots and funny capers and romantic hook-ups and good guys triumphing over evil no matter the odds and saving each other at the very last minute that now the Red Wedding feels like another show all-together.
The Dog Lord
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cbr said:

People not 'getting the burn' have missed the entire point of the whole show and plot line.

The game itself is the villain. Its eaten up almost every character and half the damned population of the world, already, innocent or not.

She won the east by changing the game and gutting the ruling class, with the help of the lower classes. Breaking the wheel 9

Here, not only did the lower classes not show any inclination to help, but the ruling classes were all scheming behind her back even though she had done everything right/merciful/friendly/cautious/etc.

She tried to befriend sansa. She tried to love jon. She tried to trust varys and tyrion. She tried to salute arya. She tried to offer gendry a piece of the game. She tried to gain allies using the 'game'. She tried to offer mercy. She tried to avoid innocent bloodshed.

She knows she cant survive in a court of scheming lords. She has to break the wheel. Or die.

If she didnt do something to demonstrate that she was a completely indomitable, ruthless gamechanger, too fearsome to ever risk plotting against, they would kill her. Period. The game demands it. The game always wins.

Killing cersi is irrelevant. She has to make it clear that if anyone ****s with her, their whole family and whole city will fry. Destroying kings landing and gutting the lords of the west completely is not only the only way for her to rule the west, its also the only way she lives to see her next birthday.

If youve been watching the show you know that burning kl is not only not insane, it was her only possible choice.

Her horrible struggle and emotions are her grappling with that reality, and knowing what it means.

So its back to danarys, the dragon, unsullied and dothraki, simple, loyal followers, versus the rest of the scheming snakes, and jon the idiot.



And yet we immediately began speculating about whether Arya or Jon might kill her in the finale. Dany did not logically think this strategy through. She may think that it will earn her respect out of fear, but she is delusional. It was a bad plan, which is fitting in this season of bad plans. The better explanation is that she just snapped.
bonfarr
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wangus12 said:

CFTXAG10 said:


Quote:

No way does she just leave. Jon, Tyrion & Grey Worm are all that are left of her "circle" with only Grey Worm agreeing with what she just did. All 3 of them are going to get a chance to talk to her. Could see it being Jon or Tyrion that strikes her down. Or Arya for that matter
What about a wild card? Bronn comes back and realizes Jaime is dead. His only shot at cashing in on Highgarden is keeping Tyrion alive since Dany is full mad queen. He kills her.
Bronn is gonna get executed for demanding a castle from her lol.


Not a plot spoiler just a guess, Tyrion is tried for letting Jaime free and demands trial by combat. Bronn shows up and fights for him knowing without Tyrion he gets nothing.
Disclaimer: Views expressed in this post reflect the opinions of Texags user bonfarr and are not to be accepted as facts or to be accepted at face value.
Zombie Jon Snow
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bonfarr said:

As the show is wrapping up we are getting clarity on who is still standing and will emerge as Head of their Houses. Based on who is left after last night's eopisodes it looks to be this:

House Stark - Sansa Stark. Jon and Bran do not want.
House Barratheon - Gendry Barratheon
House Martell - Unnamed Prince of Dorne
House Arryn - Robin of Arryn
House Tarly - Samwell Tarly
House Tully - I am assuming Edmure finally got out of the Frey dungeon and gets Riverrun
House Lannister - If he survives EP 6 will Tyrion be Lord of Casterly Rock?
Bronn is Lord of Highgarden - Will he get his castle?

Who else am I missing? Who gets the Twins?

Yara - the iron islands
Daario - Meereen

Hell at this point i just assume the iron throne will be no more - the wheel will be broken as promised.

Each house on their own.
Chase
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Old Tom Morris said:

Might have been easier to buy the final switch if she hadn't acknowledged to Grey Worm to pull back if the bells ring. Maybe that's the biggest struggle I have with it. As much as I can see her reactions in the past all building to this, to go from that acknowledgement to burning it all while the attack plan played out perfectly with no setbacks just made it odd. Her seeing the castle just didn't do it for me.

But again, I've seen this coming and enjoyed the end result (and the visual we got). My only complaint is that final switch could have been set up better.



She is in "everyone betrays me" mode when she agrees to that in front of Tyrion and she knows how Grey Worm feels. She could have meant it and snapped later, said it for Tyrion's benefit, realizing he would betray her and pass that along to Jamie and/or agreed to it knowing full well that Grey Worm would do what he did if she changed her mind.

She told him point blank that he would know when it was time to move forward...maybe that wasn't just to enter the walls?
aTmAg
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So I read all of those, and there isn't a single instance of her killing civilians for the hell of it like she did yesterday. Retribution is VASTLY different than killing civilians after the battle is over (by the million).

Lincoln executed 38 indians as retribution and lead a civil war that killed more Americans than any other war in history. Yet when the war was over, he didn't kill a million people.
cbr
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If one of the 'new players' - sansa / bronn etc. gets a throne, i expect we will see a teaser for the game continuing against them.

If jon gets it, i expect we will see a teaser for sansa/others already plotting

I dont think even got has the balls to let danarys win, which would be my wish...but if she does it will be a sad scene

I think the theme will be the game always wins, someone kills danarys, and the wheel pauses only briefly, time for people to get over that round of violence, and be ready to risk more


StringerBell
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how many dragons did lincoln have tho
wangus12
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bonfarr said:

wangus12 said:

CFTXAG10 said:


Quote:

No way does she just leave. Jon, Tyrion & Grey Worm are all that are left of her "circle" with only Grey Worm agreeing with what she just did. All 3 of them are going to get a chance to talk to her. Could see it being Jon or Tyrion that strikes her down. Or Arya for that matter
What about a wild card? Bronn comes back and realizes Jaime is dead. His only shot at cashing in on Highgarden is keeping Tyrion alive since Dany is full mad queen. He kills her.
Bronn is gonna get executed for demanding a castle from her lol.


Not a plot spoiler just a guess, Tyrion is tried for letting Jaime free and demands trial by combat. Bronn shows up and fights for him knowing without Tyrion he gets nothing.
Dany's Champion is Drogon
Duncan Idaho
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Has anyone answered the question of "where did the dothraki come from?"

I thought they were all killed at winterfell. Don't remember any sipping on Starbucks during the aftermath
CoachRTM
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MuckRaker96 said:

Despite the mass suicides I've read about from TexAgs people not being able to handle a TV show playing out different than the version in their heads, last night was dynamite for the players of Game of Game of Thrones.

First off, give a dilly dilly to both Walton Loads and Geoff H. for going 8-for-8 on character deaths (assuming we count the Mountain dead, which we - me - are).

Second, Geoff H. and SpreadSheetAg had forged a three-way tie for first with AgSquirrel97 at 102 points apiece. Meanings it's possible the end of Game of Game of Thrones might be more interesting than the end of Game of Thrones.

Third, major shoutout to Coach RTM, who had more points last night (41) then he had the entire rest of the season (35).

Deaths: Varys, Cersei, Jamie, Sandor, Gregor, Euron, Qyburn, Harry

Clegane Bowl happens (+10)
Red Keep destroyed (+10)
Cersei killed by dragon damage (nobody picked it right, Valonqar my ass!)

1) AgSquirrel97 102
Spreadsheet Ag 102
Geoff H. 102

4) Sam S 95

5) Texas Aggie '99 93

6) Walton Loads 88

7) oldag00 85

8) wangus12 82

9) Urban Ag 76
Derek J. 76
Coach RTM 76

12) TxRunner97 73
Brian Earl Spilner 73
Saint Arnold 73

15) Rex Racer 71

16) Myles Moore 67

17) ChipolteMonger 63

18) Andy W. 59
Muckraker96 59
I'm not in last anymore. All the deaths I was predicting just ended up happening about 2 episodes later than I thought.
cbr
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The Dog Lord said:

cbr said:

People not 'getting the burn' have missed the entire point of the whole show and plot line.

The game itself is the villain. Its eaten up almost every character and half the damned population of the world, already, innocent or not.

She won the east by changing the game and gutting the ruling class, with the help of the lower classes. Breaking the wheel 9

Here, not only did the lower classes not show any inclination to help, but the ruling classes were all scheming behind her back even though she had done everything right/merciful/friendly/cautious/etc.

She tried to befriend sansa. She tried to love jon. She tried to trust varys and tyrion. She tried to salute arya. She tried to offer gendry a piece of the game. She tried to gain allies using the 'game'. She tried to offer mercy. She tried to avoid innocent bloodshed.

She knows she cant survive in a court of scheming lords. She has to break the wheel. Or die.

If she didnt do something to demonstrate that she was a completely indomitable, ruthless gamechanger, too fearsome to ever risk plotting against, they would kill her. Period. The game demands it. The game always wins.

Killing cersi is irrelevant. She has to make it clear that if anyone ****s with her, their whole family and whole city will fry. Destroying kings landing and gutting the lords of the west completely is not only the only way for her to rule the west, its also the only way she lives to see her next birthday.

If youve been watching the show you know that burning kl is not only not insane, it was her only possible choice.

Her horrible struggle and emotions are her grappling with that reality, and knowing what it means.

So its back to danarys, the dragon, unsullied and dothraki, simple, loyal followers, versus the rest of the scheming snakes, and jon the idiot.



And yet we immediately began speculating about whether Arya or Jon might kill her in the finale. Dany did not logically think this strategy through. She may think that it will earn her respect out of fear, but she is delusional. It was a bad plan, which is fitting in this season of bad plans. The better explanation is that she just snapped.
I dont think she plans on letting any of them get close to her again.
dc509
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BBRex said:

I'm sure I'm a minority on this one, but I don't see Dany as being crazy. I think of it more like the Romans' destruction of the Jewish temple, where the Centurians' anger at the populace was so great that after they took the city, they burnt the temple to the ground against Ceasar's wishes and basically put the whole populace to the sword. I think Dany never expected the bell to ring, and she already had her blood up from the fight. She let rage take her and continued the destruction. I think she was "mad" in the angry sense, not insane.
If that's the case then that's apart of the tragedy to it all. Regardless of her intentions she's now going to be viewed as the insane version of mad.
bonfarr
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Duncan Idaho said:

Has anyone answered the question of "where did the dothraki come from?"

I thought they were all killed at winterfell. Don't remember any sipping on Starbucks during the aftermath


They said 50% were killed in BOW.
Disclaimer: Views expressed in this post reflect the opinions of Texags user bonfarr and are not to be accepted as facts or to be accepted at face value.
cbr
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aTmAg said:

So I read all of those, and there isn't a single instance of her killing civilians for the hell of it like she did yesterday. Retribution is VASTLY different than killing civilians after the battle is over (by the million).

Lincoln executed 38 indians as retribution and lead a civil war that killed more Americans than any other war in history. Yet when the war was over, he didn't kill a million people.
Wrong - she crucified random lords for one.
Zombie Jon Snow
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aTmAg said:

So I read all of those, and there isn't a single instance of her killing civilians for the hell of it like she did yesterday. Retribution is VASTLY different than killing civilians after the battle is over (by the million).

Lincoln executed 38 indians as retribution and lead a civil war that killed more Americans than any other war in history. Yet when the war was over, he didn't kill a million people.

lmao

yep. this is exactly like real world US history.

damn i wish i had watched Lincoln instead. what was i thinking watching a brutal fantasy show i could have watched a docudrama instead.

gambochaman
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fact:

haters are mad because the show is not ending like they had it perfectly pictured in their minds.
Chase
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PatAg said:

The Dog Lord said:

hbc07 said:

Not sure if anyone else has asked this already... but did Varys get any crows off prior to his untimely demise?

Pretty sure he did. Didn't see the little scrolls on his desk any longer when they came to get him.
he burned some scrolls, not sure if he burned them all
The fact that he only put the one he was in the process of writing in the brazier tells me that he had others that were beyond their reach. The question is, who was he sending them. Sansa, certainly. Dorne, probably. The Golden Company? Maybe. The Second Sons? Could be. No clue otherwise.
Zombie Jon Snow
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bonfarr said:

Duncan Idaho said:

Has anyone answered the question of "where did the dothraki come from?"

I thought they were all killed at winterfell. Don't remember any sipping on Starbucks during the aftermath


They said 50% were killed in BOW.

Actually no they never said that.

they said 50% of the northern armies and 50% of the Unsullied

they never said any % of the Dothraki - the Dothraki guy just swept several pieces off the board without saying a word.

Had to be closer to 90-95% and it is fine really. there were what maybe 500 now. Out of 100,000 initially.

aTmAg
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To all these people claiming that Dany's actions were obvious and foretold in 8 seasons of the show...


Link your (unedited) post where you predicted that Dany would waste the entire civilian population of KL.

(Spoiler guy does not count)
Sky Corrigan
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I agree, they just don't seem as interested now that the GRRM material is gone. They are taking way too many easy roads to get to the ending they agreed upon. It feels like D&D are simply counting down the days till they can get moving on their Star Wars trilogy.
bangobango
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

bonfarr said:

Duncan Idaho said:

Has anyone answered the question of "where did the dothraki come from?"

I thought they were all killed at winterfell. Don't remember any sipping on Starbucks during the aftermath


They said 50% were killed in BOW.

Actually no they never said that.

they said 50% of the northern armies and 50% of the Unsullied

they never said any % of the Dothraki - the Dothraki guy just swept several pieces off the board without saying a word.

Had to be closer to 90-95% and it is fine really. there were what maybe 500 now. Out of 100,000 initially.


I've just explained all of this as Dany left a portion of her force at Storm's End before heading to Winterfell. Explains why Euron didn't take Tyrion or Varys prisoner when he sunk her fleet, but doesn't explain how they didn't see his ships hanging out off the coast waiting on Dany.
aTmAg
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cbr said:

aTmAg said:

So I read all of those, and there isn't a single instance of her killing civilians for the hell of it like she did yesterday. Retribution is VASTLY different than killing civilians after the battle is over (by the million).

Lincoln executed 38 indians as retribution and lead a civil war that killed more Americans than any other war in history. Yet when the war was over, he didn't kill a million people.
Wrong - she crucified random lords for one.
Just like the vast majority of Southerners who died in the Civil War never owned a slave?

Ending slavery is an ugly matter. It's not like they will simply give it up and let their slaves go. (As depicted in the show as well)
JABQ04
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Holy ***** First I was no way trying to take credit for something that was already posted. Just thought it would be funny and posted it. I did see the post he made earlier just didn't watch it

Second, it's hilarious. Love it
bonfarr
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aTmAg said:

To all these people claiming that Dany's actions were obvious and foretold in 8 seasons of the show...


Link your (unedited) post where you predicted that Dany would waste the entire civilian population of KL.

(Spoiler guy does not count)


Why do you give a rats ass what people say they believe? What's the big deal anyway? You seem super passionate about making people see things precisely the way you do about a damn TV show?
Disclaimer: Views expressed in this post reflect the opinions of Texags user bonfarr and are not to be accepted as facts or to be accepted at face value.
aTmAg
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

aTmAg said:

So I read all of those, and there isn't a single instance of her killing civilians for the hell of it like she did yesterday. Retribution is VASTLY different than killing civilians after the battle is over (by the million).

Lincoln executed 38 indians as retribution and lead a civil war that killed more Americans than any other war in history. Yet when the war was over, he didn't kill a million people.

lmao

yep. this is exactly like real world US history.

damn i wish i had watched Lincoln instead. what was i thinking watching a brutal fantasy show i could have watched a docudrama instead.


I never said it was exactly like real world history. But in 100% of the cases I can think of, genocidal maniacs were obviously genocidal maniacs LONG before they actually conducted genocide.
cbr
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aTmAg said:

cbr said:

aTmAg said:

So I read all of those, and there isn't a single instance of her killing civilians for the hell of it like she did yesterday. Retribution is VASTLY different than killing civilians after the battle is over (by the million).

Lincoln executed 38 indians as retribution and lead a civil war that killed more Americans than any other war in history. Yet when the war was over, he didn't kill a million people.
Wrong - she crucified random lords for one.
Just like the vast majority of Southerners who died in the Civil War never owned a slave?

Ending slavery is an ugly matter. It's not like they will simply give it up and let their slaves go. (As depicted in the show as well)
The motive was the same - divide rulers from their subjects.
saltydog13
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Are you really trying to draw parallels between actual history and the game of thrones?
aTmAg
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gambochaman said:

fact:

haters are mad because the show is not ending like they had it perfectly pictured in their minds.
If that were true, then I would have hated episode 3. Because I never pictured Arya killing the NK. Yet I was one of the most ardent defenders of that decision.
SpreadsheetAg
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wangus12 said:

CFTXAG10 said:


Quote:

No way does she just leave. Jon, Tyrion & Grey Worm are all that are left of her "circle" with only Grey Worm agreeing with what she just did. All 3 of them are going to get a chance to talk to her. Could see it being Jon or Tyrion that strikes her down. Or Arya for that matter
What about a wild card? Bronn comes back and realizes Jaime is dead. His only shot at cashing in on Highgarden is keeping Tyrion alive since Dany is full mad queen. He kills her.
Bronn is gonna get executed for demanding a castle from her lol.
I think Bronn will wait a little while to see how everything shakes out finally.
Zombie Jon Snow
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aTmAg said:

To all these people claiming that Dany's actions were obvious and foretold in 8 seasons of the show...


Link your (unedited) post where you predicted that Dany would waste the entire civilian population of KL.

(Spoiler guy does not count)

So the show had to be completely predictable. that makes it acceptable. lmao.

hell no. this show was always about surprises and mass death.

It was always a possibility.

You liked to use the producers words at times about motivation (like about the "snap") well here you go:


Benioff: "Ultimately she is what she is, and that's a Targaryen. You know she has said repeatedly throughout the show "I will take what is mine with fire and blood". And in this episode she does it".



aTmAg
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bonfarr said:

aTmAg said:

To all these people claiming that Dany's actions were obvious and foretold in 8 seasons of the show...


Link your (unedited) post where you predicted that Dany would waste the entire civilian population of KL.

(Spoiler guy does not count)


Why do you give a rats ass what people say they believe? What's the big deal anyway? You seem super passionate about making people see things precisely the way you do about a damn TV show?
I'm just calling out the people who are now claiming it was obvious. They are saying that us doubters were naive in not seeing it coming.

So where are their predictions? I don't remember any (except spoiler guy).
blindey
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I know I'm preaching to the choir with this post, but watching Season 8 really really really makes me wish they would have done S7 and 8 as full 10 episode seasons. They just needed the space.

Like others have mentioned, it would have given them the ability to have the battle of winterfell after Kings Landing.

But I've always heard that pure popularity and endless stardom have caused the budget for the show to go from high to absurd.

Curious to see how it ends next week. You could use my guess but I wouldn't -- because I'm an "always bet on the zombies" guy and I figured a few survivors would end up fleeing an overrun Westeros.
agsalaska
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Furlock Bones said:

Old Tom Morris said:

Same. Bronn just kind of outlived his usefulness. I thought that was very much a "went back to the well one too many times" issue.

Ditch both his scene with Cersei and his scene with the brothers and use that time elsewhere. Not only was it awkward, but it makes Jaime's return even more confusing.
Bronn was a fan favorite. only reason they shoehorned him in at all. but, it didn't work.


Agreed. And they could have easily had him in the episode surrounding other characters being funny without any plot around him. Most people have forgotten about his plot this season already.
G Martin 87
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aTmAg said:

To all these people claiming that Dany's actions were obvious and foretold in 8 seasons of the show...


Link your (unedited) post where you predicted that Dany would waste the entire civilian population of KL.

(Spoiler guy does not count)
Examples have been provided already. There's obviously nothing else to say that can convince you at this point. I assure you that I don't do crack, and I thought Dany's arc was sad, tragic, and completely consistent. Moving on to other topics....
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