If there's one storyline that I really think they messed up it's Jon as a Targaryen. The secret of his parentage was the central mystery and primary catalyst to everything that has happened from Robert's Rebellion all the way to Daenery's sacking Kings Landing (Tamerlane would be proud), and they just didn't do a good job marinating that this season.Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:No they aren't.Champ Bailey said:bobinator said:
This 'rule by fear' thing is the lazy bit.
She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.
But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.
No particular reason? The reasonings are 8 seasons in the making.
These people have benefitted off the power her ancestors amassed centuries ago after they betrayed them. They murdered her entire family and have tried to kill her since the moment she left Westeros using this power that was stolen from her. She lost all her friends along the way, had sacrificed two of her "children," for this cause, and right at the end it turns out that even her central belief that it was her destiny by right to take the throne was a lie due to Jon.
****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******
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Is there some background to Dany hating bells that I'm not aware of or are all the bell memes just based off the last episode?
Yes, the show absolutely did. Do the body count yourself. Every person Dany ever cared about either died or betrayed her. Every male advisor tried to get her to not give in to her worst impulses. Every female advisor encouraged her to do the opposite. Open your eyes.aTmAg said:Please. They? The civilians didn't murder her entire family. They didn't kill all her friends and her "children". They didn't make her brother bang Jon's mom. None of this comes close to explain why she'd burn a million civilians after the battle is won.Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:No they aren't.Champ Bailey said:bobinator said:
This 'rule by fear' thing is the lazy bit.
She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.
But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.
No particular reason? The reasonings are 8 seasons in the making.
These people have benefitted off the power her ancestors amassed centuries ago after they betrayed them. They murdered her entire family and have tried to kill her since the moment she left Westeros using this power that was stolen from her. She lost all her friends along the way, had sacrificed two of her "children," for this cause, and right at the end it turns out that even her central belief that it was her destiny by right to take the throne was a lie due to Jon.
GRRM may have better explained it (in books or his mind), but the show sure as hell didn't.
aTmAg said:Please. They? The civilians didn't murder her entire family. They didn't kill all her friends and her "children". They didn't make her brother bang Jon's mom. None of this comes close to explain why she'd burn a million civilians after the battle is won.Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:No they aren't.Champ Bailey said:bobinator said:
This 'rule by fear' thing is the lazy bit.
She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.
But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.
No particular reason? The reasonings are 8 seasons in the making.
These people have benefitted off the power her ancestors amassed centuries ago after they betrayed them. They murdered her entire family and have tried to kill her since the moment she left Westeros using this power that was stolen from her. She lost all her friends along the way, had sacrificed two of her "children," for this cause, and right at the end it turns out that even her central belief that it was her destiny by right to take the throne was a lie due to Jon.
GRRM may have better explained it (in books or his mind), but the show sure as hell didn't.
Yes, its almost as if crazy people do crazy things ZOMG
we knew she was going to do this tho. episode 4 she says:
"But perhaps it's good the people see that Daenerys Stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed, and Cersei Lannister refused. They should know whom to blame when the sky falls down upon them."
tyrion was the only one who was set on no innocent folks dying. dany didnt give a **** at that point. she was ready to do whatever she felt that she needed to do.
"But perhaps it's good the people see that Daenerys Stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed, and Cersei Lannister refused. They should know whom to blame when the sky falls down upon them."
tyrion was the only one who was set on no innocent folks dying. dany didnt give a **** at that point. she was ready to do whatever she felt that she needed to do.
MOVING ON...
Lets talk next week.
I'm being dead serious...is there a scenario where Dany leaves Westeros and goes back to Daario, leaves Jon and the rest of them alive to go live in Winterfell, and no one else dies?
I just don't see how anyone is going to get close enough to kill Dany. Only faceless Arya seems possible.
Lets talk next week.
I'm being dead serious...is there a scenario where Dany leaves Westeros and goes back to Daario, leaves Jon and the rest of them alive to go live in Winterfell, and no one else dies?
I just don't see how anyone is going to get close enough to kill Dany. Only faceless Arya seems possible.
My eyes are open. You are blindly defending the indefensible (writing wise).G Martin 87 said:Yes, the show absolutely did. Do the body count yourself. Every person Dany ever cared about either died or betrayed her. Every male advisor tried to get her to not give in to her worst impulses. Every female advisor encouraged her to do the opposite. Open your eyes.aTmAg said:Please. They? The civilians didn't murder her entire family. They didn't kill all her friends and her "children". They didn't make her brother bang Jon's mom. None of this comes close to explain why she'd burn a million civilians after the battle is won.Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:No they aren't.Champ Bailey said:bobinator said:
This 'rule by fear' thing is the lazy bit.
She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.
But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.
No particular reason? The reasonings are 8 seasons in the making.
These people have benefitted off the power her ancestors amassed centuries ago after they betrayed them. They murdered her entire family and have tried to kill her since the moment she left Westeros using this power that was stolen from her. She lost all her friends along the way, had sacrificed two of her "children," for this cause, and right at the end it turns out that even her central belief that it was her destiny by right to take the throne was a lie due to Jon.
GRRM may have better explained it (in books or his mind), but the show sure as hell didn't.
I can see her wasting the castle and Cersei's army without mercy. But for her to sit there, hear the bells ring, and then decide "nah I'm going to roast all these people who had nothing to do with it while letting Cersei hang out at her perch for a while" made ZERO sense.
aTmAg said:And so she kills a million civilians, that had nothing to do with any of that, after the battle is won?Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:Please. They? The civilians didn't murder her entire family. They didn't kill all her friends and her "children". They didn't make her brother bang Jon's mom. None of this comes close to explain why she'd burn a million civilians after the battle is won.Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:No they aren't.Champ Bailey said:bobinator said:
This 'rule by fear' thing is the lazy bit.
She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.
But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.
No particular reason? The reasonings are 8 seasons in the making.
These people have benefitted off the power her ancestors amassed centuries ago after they betrayed them. They murdered her entire family and have tried to kill her since the moment she left Westeros using this power that was stolen from her. She lost all her friends along the way, had sacrificed two of her "children," for this cause, and right at the end it turns out that even her central belief that it was her destiny by right to take the throne was a lie due to Jon.
GRRM may have better explained it (in books or his mind), but the show sure as hell didn't.
She talks about it at Winterfell when she sees Jon getting all the love for riding her dragons. She feels ostracized and separated from the people, even though they would have all died without her. And they don't giver her any credit for it.
Yes. She explains it to Jon. She wants the people to be obedient to her out of love. After Jon denied her advances, she chose fear. Destroying the red keep gets rid of Cersei, but it doesn't stop revolts happening by troops and houses still loyal to her.
Her burning Utica to the ground ensures that everyone is afraid of her and what she can and will do. Similar to the Tarly's, but on a much bigger scale.
Bingo. There's not a good reason for her to have burned the city, but that's the point. She's the Mad Queen. Could it have been developed better? Sure, but that's where we are.gambochaman said:aTmAg said:Please. They? The civilians didn't murder her entire family. They didn't kill all her friends and her "children". They didn't make her brother bang Jon's mom. None of this comes close to explain why she'd burn a million civilians after the battle is won.Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:No they aren't.Champ Bailey said:bobinator said:
This 'rule by fear' thing is the lazy bit.
She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.
But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.
No particular reason? The reasonings are 8 seasons in the making.
These people have benefitted off the power her ancestors amassed centuries ago after they betrayed them. They murdered her entire family and have tried to kill her since the moment she left Westeros using this power that was stolen from her. She lost all her friends along the way, had sacrificed two of her "children," for this cause, and right at the end it turns out that even her central belief that it was her destiny by right to take the throne was a lie due to Jon.
GRRM may have better explained it (in books or his mind), but the show sure as hell didn't.
Yes, its almost as if crazy people do crazy things ZOMG
This is precisely why I hate it.Quote:
Yes, its almost as if crazy people do crazy things ZOMG
"She's crazy now" is just SO lazy.
The only indication that she was "crazy" was people like Vary's saying she was crazy. None of her actions justify that. It was lazy writing.gambochaman said:aTmAg said:Please. They? The civilians didn't murder her entire family. They didn't kill all her friends and her "children". They didn't make her brother bang Jon's mom. None of this comes close to explain why she'd burn a million civilians after the battle is won.Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:No they aren't.Champ Bailey said:bobinator said:
This 'rule by fear' thing is the lazy bit.
She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.
But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.
No particular reason? The reasonings are 8 seasons in the making.
These people have benefitted off the power her ancestors amassed centuries ago after they betrayed them. They murdered her entire family and have tried to kill her since the moment she left Westeros using this power that was stolen from her. She lost all her friends along the way, had sacrificed two of her "children," for this cause, and right at the end it turns out that even her central belief that it was her destiny by right to take the throne was a lie due to Jon.
GRRM may have better explained it (in books or his mind), but the show sure as hell didn't.
Yes, its almost as if crazy people do crazy things ZOMG
Ghost with Tormund north of the wall again:Southlake said:
Damn, Ghost was shut out again...
People not 'getting the burn' have missed the entire point of the whole show and plot line.
The game itself is the villain. Its eaten up almost every character and half the damned population of the world, already, innocent or not.
She won the east by changing the game and gutting the ruling class, with the help of the lower classes. Breaking the wheel 9
Here, not only did the lower classes not show any inclination to help, but the ruling classes were all scheming behind her back even though she had done everything right/merciful/friendly/cautious/etc.
She tried to befriend sansa. She tried to love jon. She tried to trust varys and tyrion. She tried to salute arya. She tried to offer gendry a piece of the game. She tried to gain allies using the 'game'. She tried to offer mercy. She tried to avoid innocent bloodshed.
She knows she cant survive in a court of scheming lords. She has to break the wheel. Or die.
If she didnt do something to demonstrate that she was a completely indomitable, ruthless gamechanger, too fearsome to ever risk plotting against, they would kill her. Period. The game demands it. The game always wins.
Killing cersi is irrelevant. She has to make it clear that if anyone ****s with her, their whole family and whole city will fry. Destroying kings landing and gutting the lords of the west completely is not only the only way for her to rule the west, its also the only way she lives to see her next birthday.
If youve been watching the show you know that burning kl is not only not insane, it was her only possible choice.
Her horrible struggle and emotions are her grappling with that reality, and knowing what it means.
So its back to danarys, the dragon, unsullied and dothraki, simple, loyal followers, versus the rest of the scheming snakes, and jon the idiot.
The game itself is the villain. Its eaten up almost every character and half the damned population of the world, already, innocent or not.
She won the east by changing the game and gutting the ruling class, with the help of the lower classes. Breaking the wheel 9
Here, not only did the lower classes not show any inclination to help, but the ruling classes were all scheming behind her back even though she had done everything right/merciful/friendly/cautious/etc.
She tried to befriend sansa. She tried to love jon. She tried to trust varys and tyrion. She tried to salute arya. She tried to offer gendry a piece of the game. She tried to gain allies using the 'game'. She tried to offer mercy. She tried to avoid innocent bloodshed.
She knows she cant survive in a court of scheming lords. She has to break the wheel. Or die.
If she didnt do something to demonstrate that she was a completely indomitable, ruthless gamechanger, too fearsome to ever risk plotting against, they would kill her. Period. The game demands it. The game always wins.
Killing cersi is irrelevant. She has to make it clear that if anyone ****s with her, their whole family and whole city will fry. Destroying kings landing and gutting the lords of the west completely is not only the only way for her to rule the west, its also the only way she lives to see her next birthday.
If youve been watching the show you know that burning kl is not only not insane, it was her only possible choice.
Her horrible struggle and emotions are her grappling with that reality, and knowing what it means.
So its back to danarys, the dragon, unsullied and dothraki, simple, loyal followers, versus the rest of the scheming snakes, and jon the idiot.
Oh damn, just realized that Varys conversation with that little girl was him plotting to poison Dany. Maybe that was obvious to some, but surprisingly subtle for D&D. She worked in the kitchens and Varys specifically asked about Dany's eating habits.
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"Being a dragon" as olenna said doesn't require burning everything to ashes. Aegon didn't burn the north for funsies during his conquest even though he could have. There was no reason to burn the entire civilian population at that point. She can show and create fear without literally melting every person alive there to witness the events.
Pffft. Up until now, Dany has been pretty smart (way smarter than Jon Snow). You don't waste a million people because they "might" rebel. You take out Cersei, her army, her castle, etc. And THEN if the civilians start a revolt you roast them. If you can wipe out armies in 20 minutes, you can easily wipe out civilians if the need arises.Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:And so she kills a million civilians, that had nothing to do with any of that, after the battle is won?Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:Please. They? The civilians didn't murder her entire family. They didn't kill all her friends and her "children". They didn't make her brother bang Jon's mom. None of this comes close to explain why she'd burn a million civilians after the battle is won.Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:No they aren't.Champ Bailey said:bobinator said:
This 'rule by fear' thing is the lazy bit.
She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.
But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.
No particular reason? The reasonings are 8 seasons in the making.
These people have benefitted off the power her ancestors amassed centuries ago after they betrayed them. They murdered her entire family and have tried to kill her since the moment she left Westeros using this power that was stolen from her. She lost all her friends along the way, had sacrificed two of her "children," for this cause, and right at the end it turns out that even her central belief that it was her destiny by right to take the throne was a lie due to Jon.
GRRM may have better explained it (in books or his mind), but the show sure as hell didn't.
She talks about it at Winterfell when she sees Jon getting all the love for riding her dragons. She feels ostracized and separated from the people, even though they would have all died without her. And they don't giver her any credit for it.
Yes. She explains it to Jon. She people to be obedient to her out of love. After Jon denied her advances, she chose fear. Destroying the red keep gets rid of Cersei, but it doesn't stop revolts happening by troops and houses still loyal to her.
Her burning Utica to the ground ensures that everyone is afraid of her and what she can and will do. Similar to the Tarly's, but on a much bigger scale.
It makes 100% sense. Every season has hinted that this was a possibility. Every single one. I can't figure out why you're so surprised by this. First stage of grief, perhaps?aTmAg said:My eyes are open. You are blindly defending the indefensible (writing wise).G Martin 87 said:Yes, the show absolutely did. Do the body count yourself. Every person Dany ever cared about either died or betrayed her. Every male advisor tried to get her to not give in to her worst impulses. Every female advisor encouraged her to do the opposite. Open your eyes.aTmAg said:Please. They? The civilians didn't murder her entire family. They didn't kill all her friends and her "children". They didn't make her brother bang Jon's mom. None of this comes close to explain why she'd burn a million civilians after the battle is won.Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:No they aren't.Champ Bailey said:bobinator said:
This 'rule by fear' thing is the lazy bit.
She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.
But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.
No particular reason? The reasonings are 8 seasons in the making.
These people have benefitted off the power her ancestors amassed centuries ago after they betrayed them. They murdered her entire family and have tried to kill her since the moment she left Westeros using this power that was stolen from her. She lost all her friends along the way, had sacrificed two of her "children," for this cause, and right at the end it turns out that even her central belief that it was her destiny by right to take the throne was a lie due to Jon.
GRRM may have better explained it (in books or his mind), but the show sure as hell didn't.
I can see her wasting the castle and Cersei's army without mercy. But for her to sit there, hear the bells ring, and then decide "nah I'm going to roast all these people who had nothing to do with it while letting Cersei hang out at her perch for a while" made ZERO sense.
I'm fine with that, but I just wish there was some more legwork put into it. Show her being conflicted about her hatred of that place/what it represents versus the innocent lives at stake. Make her snapping have more weight than just "oh man she went off the deep end." Make it more of a "she couldn't let go of her hatred"-type thing. Maybe we'll get a post-incident explanation from Dany of that, but that seems a little too late in my opinion.hunter2012 said:
I actually understand why Dany did what she did especially after the D&D commentary. All of her closest companions/advisors are dead, and she is in the place full of the people that killed her family and drove her and her brother to exile. She sees the red keep and sees a hostile country that is the root cause of her miserable upbringing. From that distorted logic it definitely makes sense.
Just feels like a lot of things boil down to there just not being enough episodes so they're cramming stuff in. At face value, the things that have happened aren't necessarily eye rolling, but the way that they're all pressed together seems to be in my opinion.
aTmAg said:Pffft. Up until now, Dany has been pretty smart (way smarter than Jon Snow). You don't waste a million people because they "might" rebel. You take out Cersei, her army, her castle, etc. And THEN if the civilians start a revolt you roast them. If you can wipe out armies in 20 minutes, you can easily wipe out civilians if the need arises.Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:And so she kills a million civilians, that had nothing to do with any of that, after the battle is won?Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:Please. They? The civilians didn't murder her entire family. They didn't kill all her friends and her "children". They didn't make her brother bang Jon's mom. None of this comes close to explain why she'd burn a million civilians after the battle is won.Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:No they aren't.Champ Bailey said:bobinator said:
This 'rule by fear' thing is the lazy bit.
She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.
But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.
No particular reason? The reasonings are 8 seasons in the making.
These people have benefitted off the power her ancestors amassed centuries ago after they betrayed them. They murdered her entire family and have tried to kill her since the moment she left Westeros using this power that was stolen from her. She lost all her friends along the way, had sacrificed two of her "children," for this cause, and right at the end it turns out that even her central belief that it was her destiny by right to take the throne was a lie due to Jon.
GRRM may have better explained it (in books or his mind), but the show sure as hell didn't.
She talks about it at Winterfell when she sees Jon getting all the love for riding her dragons. She feels ostracized and separated from the people, even though they would have all died without her. And they don't giver her any credit for it.
Yes. She explains it to Jon. She people to be obedient to her out of love. After Jon denied her advances, she chose fear. Destroying the red keep gets rid of Cersei, but it doesn't stop revolts happening by troops and houses still loyal to her.
Her burning Utica to the ground ensures that everyone is afraid of her and what she can and will do. Similar to the Tarly's, but on a much bigger scale.
Dany is smart. She remembers Mereen and the bloodshed that followed because she didn't just kill them all. She now has nobody she trusts to stop her from giving in to her worst impulses.
You can not like the reasons, all I'm saying is that the reasons are there.
I think your whole post is completely off base, but this right here is the main reason.cbr said:
If youve been watching the show you know that burning kl is not only not insane, it was her only possible choice.
Because she did this, the only people that have stood by her are definitely going to try and kill her. So killing the innocent people did the exact opposite of what you're saying.
Sooo many damn whiners on here. It's a TV show based on fantasy. I'll be sure to avoid this thread next season. 
It's Monday morning. Adorable.gigemJTH12 said:
MOVING ON...
Lets talk next week.
No. Just the expectation of a decent ending after several seasons of greatness.G Martin 87 said:It makes 100% sense. Every season has hinted that this was a possibility. Every single one. I can't figure out why you're so surprised by this. First stage of grief, perhaps?aTmAg said:My eyes are open. You are blindly defending the indefensible (writing wise).G Martin 87 said:Yes, the show absolutely did. Do the body count yourself. Every person Dany ever cared about either died or betrayed her. Every male advisor tried to get her to not give in to her worst impulses. Every female advisor encouraged her to do the opposite. Open your eyes.aTmAg said:Please. They? The civilians didn't murder her entire family. They didn't kill all her friends and her "children". They didn't make her brother bang Jon's mom. None of this comes close to explain why she'd burn a million civilians after the battle is won.Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:No they aren't.Champ Bailey said:bobinator said:
This 'rule by fear' thing is the lazy bit.
She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.
But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.
No particular reason? The reasonings are 8 seasons in the making.
These people have benefitted off the power her ancestors amassed centuries ago after they betrayed them. They murdered her entire family and have tried to kill her since the moment she left Westeros using this power that was stolen from her. She lost all her friends along the way, had sacrificed two of her "children," for this cause, and right at the end it turns out that even her central belief that it was her destiny by right to take the throne was a lie due to Jon.
GRRM may have better explained it (in books or his mind), but the show sure as hell didn't.
I can see her wasting the castle and Cersei's army without mercy. But for her to sit there, hear the bells ring, and then decide "nah I'm going to roast all these people who had nothing to do with it while letting Cersei hang out at her perch for a while" made ZERO sense.
The only "hints" are "her dad was crazy", the "coin flip", and BS like that. None of her actions hint that. Not burning the Tarlys, her would be assassins, etc.
What was Davos supposed to smuggle for Tyrion?
This past episode was the best of the season.
This past episode was the best of the season.
The boat for Jaime and Cersei.
That's how I took it. I think that they built this up to the point that Dany, Grey Worm, and what's left of the Unsullied and Dothraki simply hate Westeros. And further, they don't trust any of the Westerosi. Why would they?Belton Ag said:
I keep seeing that Dany just decided go scorched earth at that last second but when Grey Worm speared the soldier who had laid down his sword I figured she probably told him she was going to do it and to go ahead and wreck shop no matter what.
Arya - ambivalent towards her at best
Sansa - complete beeotch to her. For choosing to sacrifice her forces to stop the NK, Sansa (and everyone else for that matter) should have gladly bent the knee.
Jon - spurned her and refused to keep their secret (which he could have reasonably done until after KL was sorted out). Plus Jon is why she took her army north. It was as much because she had fallen for him by then as anything else.
Tyrion - made enough bad decisions that hurt her and helped her enemies to the point that being suspicious is more than warranted, and, when finding out about Jon being Aegon he tells Varys first instead of going to her
Varys - flat out commits treason, warranted or not
Brienne, Jamie, Tormund, Arya, Sandor, Pod, Sam - all relevant, she saved their skins at Winterfell, not one of them goes south with her
Yara - where the hell is she?
Lady Olena - perfectly clear she didn't give a rip about Dany she just wanted revenge on Cersei
Jorah and Missandie diead. Her inner circle is gone.
What was the last thing Tyrion told the slaver at Merreen when Dany was slaughtering their navy? Go home and tell everyone what you saw here so they know what will happen if they F with Dany Targaryen. Dany's thinking, as cruel and frankly evil as it was, was correct. Fear was the only thing she had left.
the whole episode i couldn't help but think Arya was the "I like turtles" guy
Lol I didn't mean stop the discussion. I just meant I am moving on to next week. Didn't mean to come off passive aggressive.
What part of "mad" do you not understand?Brian Earl Spilner said:
Dany going full MQ was expected, but the way it happened really pissed me off. The city was taken. They had surrendered.
Ugh.
"I expected her to do something irrational and evil but her doing something irrational and evil pissed me off."
He smuggled Jamie out to King's Landing, right? Because Dany had him captured and in chains. Tyrion did this as his only way to save his family, and possibly himself, and preserve peace in the realm. As a result, he's gonna get executed by Dany once she finds out that he had Jamie smuggled out. A huge gamble that ended up not mattering either way once Dany torched King's Landing. He was likely dead given any possible outcome.aggiepaintrain said:
What was Davos supposed to smuggle for Tyrion?
This past episode was the best of the season.
After Sansa is executed, John kills Daenerys and scene.
The show writers said after the show that she decided to 'make this personal' right in that moment. So this 'she told Grey Worm ahead of time' stuff isn't what happened.
Despite the mass suicides I've read about from TexAgs people not being able to handle a TV show playing out different than the version in their heads, last night was dynamite for the players of Game of Game of Thrones.
First off, give a dilly dilly to both Walton Loads and Geoff H. for going 8-for-8 on character deaths (assuming we count the Mountain dead, which we - me - are).
Second, Geoff H. and SpreadSheetAg had forged a three-way tie for first with AgSquirrel97 at 102 points apiece. Meanings it's possible the end of Game of Game of Thrones might be more interesting than the end of Game of Thrones.
Third, major shoutout to Coach RTM, who had more points last night (41) then he had the entire rest of the season (35).
Deaths: Varys, Cersei, Jamie, Sandor, Gregor, Euron, Qyburn, Harry
Clegane Bowl happens (+10)
Red Keep destroyed (+10)
Cersei killed by dragon damage (nobody picked it right, Valonqar my ass!)
1) AgSquirrel97 102
Spreadsheet Ag 102
Geoff H. 102
4) Sam S 95
5) Texas Aggie '99 93
6) Walton Loads 88
7) oldag00 85
8) wangus12 82
9) Urban Ag 76
Derek J. 76
Coach RTM 76
12) TxRunner97 73
Brian Earl Spilner 73
Saint Arnold 73
15) Rex Racer 71
16) Myles Moore 67
17) ChipolteMonger 63
18) Andy W. 59
Muckraker96 59
First off, give a dilly dilly to both Walton Loads and Geoff H. for going 8-for-8 on character deaths (assuming we count the Mountain dead, which we - me - are).
Second, Geoff H. and SpreadSheetAg had forged a three-way tie for first with AgSquirrel97 at 102 points apiece. Meanings it's possible the end of Game of Game of Thrones might be more interesting than the end of Game of Thrones.
Third, major shoutout to Coach RTM, who had more points last night (41) then he had the entire rest of the season (35).
Deaths: Varys, Cersei, Jamie, Sandor, Gregor, Euron, Qyburn, Harry
Clegane Bowl happens (+10)
Red Keep destroyed (+10)
Cersei killed by dragon damage (nobody picked it right, Valonqar my ass!)
1) AgSquirrel97 102
Spreadsheet Ag 102
Geoff H. 102
4) Sam S 95
5) Texas Aggie '99 93
6) Walton Loads 88
7) oldag00 85
8) wangus12 82
9) Urban Ag 76
Derek J. 76
Coach RTM 76
12) TxRunner97 73
Brian Earl Spilner 73
Saint Arnold 73
15) Rex Racer 71
16) Myles Moore 67
17) ChipolteMonger 63
18) Andy W. 59
Muckraker96 59
I don't mind that she is genocidal. They just did a poor job of showing the turn. I thought the SW Prequels were bad. But this is like Anikin being a little kid, killing a spider that bit him, people whispering "he's crazy" a bunch, and then suddenly killing a million people because somebody rang a bell.Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:Pffft. Up until now, Dany has been pretty smart (way smarter than Jon Snow). You don't waste a million people because they "might" rebel. You take out Cersei, her army, her castle, etc. And THEN if the civilians start a revolt you roast them. If you can wipe out armies in 20 minutes, you can easily wipe out civilians if the need arises.Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:And so she kills a million civilians, that had nothing to do with any of that, after the battle is won?Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:Please. They? The civilians didn't murder her entire family. They didn't kill all her friends and her "children". They didn't make her brother bang Jon's mom. None of this comes close to explain why she'd burn a million civilians after the battle is won.Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:No they aren't.Champ Bailey said:bobinator said:
This 'rule by fear' thing is the lazy bit.
She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.
But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.
No particular reason? The reasonings are 8 seasons in the making.
These people have benefitted off the power her ancestors amassed centuries ago after they betrayed them. They murdered her entire family and have tried to kill her since the moment she left Westeros using this power that was stolen from her. She lost all her friends along the way, had sacrificed two of her "children," for this cause, and right at the end it turns out that even her central belief that it was her destiny by right to take the throne was a lie due to Jon.
GRRM may have better explained it (in books or his mind), but the show sure as hell didn't.
She talks about it at Winterfell when she sees Jon getting all the love for riding her dragons. She feels ostracized and separated from the people, even though they would have all died without her. And they don't giver her any credit for it.
Yes. She explains it to Jon. She people to be obedient to her out of love. After Jon denied her advances, she chose fear. Destroying the red keep gets rid of Cersei, but it doesn't stop revolts happening by troops and houses still loyal to her.
Her burning Utica to the ground ensures that everyone is afraid of her and what she can and will do. Similar to the Tarly's, but on a much bigger scale.
Dany is smart. She remembers Mereen and the bloodshed that followed because she didn't just kill them all. She now has nobody she trusts to stop her from giving in to her worst impulses.
You can not like the reasons, all I'm saying is that the reasons are there.
Sorry, if you think those were the "only" hints, then you should actually *watch* the show. Better yet, *rewatch* the show, Because you definitely missed it the first time.aTmAg said:No. Just the expectation of a decent ending after several seasons of greatness.G Martin 87 said:It makes 100% sense. Every season has hinted that this was a possibility. Every single one. I can't figure out why you're so surprised by this. First stage of grief, perhaps?aTmAg said:My eyes are open. You are blindly defending the indefensible (writing wise).G Martin 87 said:Yes, the show absolutely did. Do the body count yourself. Every person Dany ever cared about either died or betrayed her. Every male advisor tried to get her to not give in to her worst impulses. Every female advisor encouraged her to do the opposite. Open your eyes.aTmAg said:Please. They? The civilians didn't murder her entire family. They didn't kill all her friends and her "children". They didn't make her brother bang Jon's mom. None of this comes close to explain why she'd burn a million civilians after the battle is won.Champ Bailey said:aTmAg said:No they aren't.Champ Bailey said:bobinator said:
This 'rule by fear' thing is the lazy bit.
She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.
But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.
No particular reason? The reasonings are 8 seasons in the making.
These people have benefitted off the power her ancestors amassed centuries ago after they betrayed them. They murdered her entire family and have tried to kill her since the moment she left Westeros using this power that was stolen from her. She lost all her friends along the way, had sacrificed two of her "children," for this cause, and right at the end it turns out that even her central belief that it was her destiny by right to take the throne was a lie due to Jon.
GRRM may have better explained it (in books or his mind), but the show sure as hell didn't.
I can see her wasting the castle and Cersei's army without mercy. But for her to sit there, hear the bells ring, and then decide "nah I'm going to roast all these people who had nothing to do with it while letting Cersei hang out at her perch for a while" made ZERO sense.
The only "hints" are "her dad was crazy", the "coin flip", and BS like that. None of her actions hint that. Not burning the Tarlys, her would be assassins, etc.