Deputy Travis Junior said:

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Thinking about this episode and the story some more... GRRM sure used a lot of words to say that incest leads to genetic defects and unstable kids.

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Not only is Dany a genetic defect, she basically got sold at a young age to a dothraki horse-humper. She's pretty much an entire cocktail of lifelong therapy.

hated 4, but loved that one. a few logical fallacies and timing gaffes, but overall really good.

at first i thought danarys and the dragon just attacking the crossbows, with no plan, was stupid, but in hindsight it fits their mindset, (as some others have said).

in the east, timing, destiny, loyalty were all on her side. her people loved her. they were never going to scheme against her. frankly they arent schemers. The unsullied and dothraki will always follow her.

ever since she came to the west, it's been more of the same bull**** 'game.' backstabbing, mischief, betrayal, distrust, hate, stupidity, mistakes, bad advice, murder, taunting, and liars - all of them.

she literally just said: '**** it, it's me, my dragon, and the dothraki/unsullied that love me' --- and **** everyone else.

and the funny thing is -- she's not crazy. she's perfectly rational. in fact, it was the only way for her to survive, much less rule.

Jon is just as moronic as ever.

just kiss the troll jon.

just show her some love, and you could have had a smooth ride to the throne with her. she's telling you she would share it, you can both have a good life. cities need not burn. break the wheel that way. but no, jon says '**** you' queen, and so did every single other person from the west.

Sansa turned herself into Cersi/baelish. **** that *****. She learned all the wrong lessons.

Danarys wasn't crazy to burn that city. That was the most sane thing she could do, other than just ride away back to mereen and forget the whole thing. Even that wasn't an option. You know damned well that the fleet and cersi would have chased here ass back there. Like Cersi said, win or die.

She was right when she said 'fear is all i have here.'

She HAD to burn that city. there was no other choice. They were all just the same lying, thieving, sneering mob that cheered for Ned's head and mocked him in the theater. **** them. The entire culture of the west is ****, and was against her. Look at the Tarlys. They chose to fry over freaking Cersi Lannister.

Basically, she had every right to hate the west. And every right to believe that the only way they'd ever let her live was pure fear. The whole feudal culture was a backstabbing, warring, mischievous culture... just what she wanted to break.

Jon was literally the ONLY person that wasnt scheming against her even as she was saving them, and he was too stupid to rely on for anything.

Like Cersi said, you win or die.

She's lost all her friends and lovers. Her only way to survive is to break the wheel. Her only way to break the wheel is through fear. The only way to drive that point home is to burn that ****ing city and everyone in it. She can make amends by breaking that culture, and treating the common people well, later. Or she could die herself. Easy choice for her.

So She went all in, figured she could move faster than the crossbows, and if she did, she'd win... if she didn't, she'd die. She won.

and now its everyone against the 'mad queen' -- when they left her no choice to begin with. She's not really the crazy one or the bad guy at all IMO.

I hope she fries them all and rules both continents.

But we know that now she's been labeled the 'bad guy' - and it certainly looks like Arya will sneak up on her... or maybe jon stabs her in the back too.

Hell, they even tried to make Cersi a sympathetic figure. Screw that. She and those dishonest ****s all needed to die.

Just think about all the moms that were given the "mother of dragons" gifts for Mother's Day. Awesome timing

Quote:

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She's not really the crazy one or the bad guy at all IMO.

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Qyburn death and Clegane bowl. Awesome.

The rest of this episode was ass. How are you going to rob everyone of a proper Cersei death? You don't let Arya do it, effed up Jaimies redemption arc so he doesn't do it, and you don't even let Daenerys do it directly.

I love that they have a special making of episode the week after this ends to get one more week out of HBO viewers suckers.

cbr in 'nam

this whole season has sucked. God, I'm so disappointed

Brock Sampson said:

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After the way King's Landing treated Ned I hope Dany goes scorched Earth.

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Old Tom Morris said:

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My point is they went from :"I'll save the realm of men" to burning everyone in a couple of episodes. The speed jacked up the transition. I get where this was headed and it's what I was actually hoping for and expected. It's been headed this way, but the speed of the final switch was just extreme IMO. I'm glad we didn't get the happy ending nor was I ever expecting it. I just wanted a little more sign of cruelty capability. The Tarly thing was weak sauce

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Disagree. I think this was foreshadowed with her siege of Mereen (sp? I think) when Jorah reminded her that there were good people on both sides of every war and she didn't care. It's always been building more and more to her way or the highway. She could not accept that there were people in KL that weren't slaves that were just living life and not in rebellion. I think I'm her crazy mind she thought the civilians were also evil for letting Cersei rule them. She somehow has morally convinced herself that she's all good and her means are for the good of everyone no matter the cost.

Isn't that the whole point of the story. The game of thrones. When we seek power, power consumes us and makes us terrible. We all hate Cersei but we all have some Cersei in us. We all have some Dany, some Jon, some Arya/Hound, etc. humans are flawed, it's bittersweet because there are no true happy endings.

I just want to know who left the coffee cup on the back of the white horse...

Old Tom Morris said:

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cbr in 'nam

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LOL, well, if you're going to war, call it what it is....

tailgatetimer10 said:

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Rode in on a black horse and out on a white... I took it as she's found a new purpose

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She was dressed in all black entering in and when she left she was red/white.

Actually, I don't think you disagree. I'm on the same page as far as I think her character was building in this direction from the beginning. i just didn't like the final step. The extremity of it just seemed a bit fast and strong for me to find believable. Thought it could have been done much better, but was likely a victim of the rushed final 2 seasons. To torch a giant city full of innocents, after a surrender, is such a giant step from anything she's shown she's capable of doing so far. Just give me a little more tinge of recent cruelty than that Tarly stuff, or maybe somehow trigger it in the action of the battle a little better.

C@LAg said:

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Silvertaps said:

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C@LAg said:

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to annie and her ilk.

yes. some of you do need to chill the f out.

This is a discussion forum, If some of us want to rant, we can rant. Just as easily as you tell us to scroll down and skip something we do not like, follow your own suggestions.

You do not like the conversation here, you can always log off.

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You've been bi.tching more than anyone on this thread about your displeasure in every episode this season. It's what makes your response to Annie and ilk even more laughable.

It's simple...if you don't like it, turn it off. It's annoying as f*** for you and others to keep running to your computer/phone to tell the world about it.

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oh **** off. it is easy to ignore me. Use your ****ing stars.

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I honestly think there are children among us that snuck off with their parents phones.
Time for bed little one...there are grown ups talking in here.

mazzag said:

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What did Davos smuggle!

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Tyrion in to see Jaime

My thought was Jamie into Kings Landing.

oragator said:

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This episode is getting mediocre (at best) reviews from critics.
Best episode for me in a while, (which isn't saying much given he the season has gone), but also disappointed in how little set up there was for Dany's Transformation. Didn't feel right and hung over the episode.

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this season was too rushed, but honestly, i think that particular 'transformation' wasnt. She tried everything - Tyrion's merciful way. She tried to love Jon. She tried to win Sansa. She saluted Arya. She sacrificed every single thing for these people, and they hate her and didnt wait a week after beating the devil himself and saving the entire world.

She gave up everything to save the whole damned world, and in 2 days everyone is scheming to push her aside anyway.

All she got from 'mercy and trust' was losing her 2 best friends she ever had.

I think that particular 'arc' was perfect. **** em all. Win. Break the wheel. or die.

Is Jon going to go Kenobi next week and yell at Dany "YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE!" haha jk couldnt resist.

Anyway, is Tyrion all but dead? When Dany finds out he let Jamie escape he's done right?

Zombie Jon Snow said:

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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Episode title: The Bells

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Kinda funny.... but too soon???

Did anyone else think a giant bell fell OVER Arya???? the bell tower crumbled over her and made a bell ringing sound as it went dark. I thought she was trapped inside a 1000 pound bell for a second.

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Arya has the biggest bells of anyone on this show...

Rewatching the beginning. The dragon coming out of the dark behind Dany as she sentences Varys to death is badass.

chase128 said:

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Is Jon going to go Kenobi next week and yell at Dany "YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE!" haha jk couldnt resist.

Anyway, is Tyrion all but dead? When Dany finds out he let Jamie escape he's done right?

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Dany has the high ground though.

MuckRaker96 said:

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sorry for wtl;dr

Since the death of Khal Drogo, pretty much everything Dany's done has been a success, or has led to a success.
Let's start with Dany at her peak, Ruling Mereen, worshipped by its people, breaker of chains, Has all 3 dragons

Immediate "family" - Jorah Mormont, Barristan Selmy, Missandei, Grey Worm, Daario Naharis - all loyal unto death for her and have been for years.
New advisers: Tyrion Lannister, Varys - both with extensive knowledge of Westeros and determined to help her retake the throne, but definitely not willing to die for her.

Descent to the Mad Queen
Incident #1 - Barristan Selmy killed by Sons of the Harpy thugs in an alley brawl. Loses her most true father figure.
Incident #2 - Sons of the Harpy attack the arena and slaughter hundreds, while she escapes on Drogon - citizens lose trust in her.
Incident #3 - She leave Essos behind to retake Westeros, leaving Daario Naharis behind - her lover and confidante who does not judge her at all, and provides easy comfort.
Incident #4 - Against the strong advice of her Hand, she burns the Tarly Lords when they won't bend the knee. Very akin to what her father preached instead of taking hostages.
Incident #5 - Viserion dies at the hands of the Night King. Her invincibility factor by dragon no longer exists, and she has lost 1/3rd of her children.
Incident #6 - She travels to Winterfell and finds not everyone wants to accept her as Queen or even like her. This is after she has collected the Unsullied, the Dothraki, and made alliances with Dorne, High Garden, the King of the North, and the Iron Islands who have all bent the knee to her.
Incident #7 - Jon Snow reveals he is really Aegon Targaryen. Instead of being her strongest ally and paramour, replacing Daario Naharis, she now doesn't know what to make of him, and fears he could be a rival for her claim.
Incident #8 - Jorah Mormont is killed by wights. Now she has no father figure at all. Tyrion Lannister and Varys might be shrewd, but they are poor replacements for Ser Jorah and Ser Barristan in terms of the support she has come to rely on.
Incident #9 - The Army of the Dead is defeated with very little help from her. Drogon can't kill the Night King and her two main armies are largely decimated. Two players younger than she is - Bran and Arya - combine to kill the Night King with one distracting him and the other ending him. Attention is lavished instead on Jon Snow / Aegon Targaryen, and even her advisers begin to question if he might be the right choice to sit the Throne.
Incident #10 - An ambush decimates her fleet, kills Rhaegal and sees Missandei taken hostage. She is outsmarted for a second time by Cersei/Euron and is down to one dragon now.
Incident #11 - She watches Missandei be executed by the Mountain. Her only female adviser is dead, and perhaps her only real friend as well. The death affects Grey Worm as it affects her. He no longer wants a life beyond the war. He has become vengeance, and will gladly go to his death if it means slaughtering the people who killed his love.

Dany is now alone with a military commander she knows is out for blood like she is, two advisers who are questioning whether she's fit to command, and a sort of boyfriend but also your nephew, who swears he doesn't want the crown, but whom she can't believe. And his great secret, once known only by her, him, Sam, and Bran, has now stretched to Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, and Varys, except she doesn't know that they know.

On the flip side, every one of her greatest successes has been born out of fire.
#1 The birth of the dragons
#2 Acquisition of the Unsullied/death of the slavers
#3 Escape from death at Vas Dothrak and having the Dothraki serve her without question
#4 Victory at the Battle of Slavers Bay with all three dragons unleashed

Fire could not beat the Night King, but it can surely burn Euron Greyjoy's fleet and destroy the Red Keep and Cersei with it. Her string of recent events will have her doubting every strategy but the one that her family is built on - winning the Iron Throne with fire and blood.

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^nailed it

I don't think Jor-Bear would be happy with what Dany has done. Hope somebody brings that up

Zombie Jon Snow said:

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Urban Ag said:

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jtstanley4621 said:

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Fair point. I guess I just mean like Dany getting super consumed with getting the throne at all costs, likely at the risk of innocent lives.

Her circle is shrinking and they're really hammering home her feeling isolated and powerless. Feels like she's going to take King's Landing with the unsullied and Drogon at any cost. Which I think is just a shame in terms of all the things we've been through with her character throughout the seasons.

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Good take. I agree that it feels like it's building up to this.

Missanandie is gone. Jorah gone. Jon unwilling to agree to her every demand. Sansa openly against her. Tyion delicately challenging her. Varys (potentially) turning on her. Carefully shot scene that shows Dany observing the cliques form during the celebration, with no one really including her. Down to one dragon. Majority of her army destroyed. Everything she built is crashing down around her.

I think Ep5 is building up to be the crazy sh** one just as Emelia alluded to. And there won't be any sort of conventional wisdom type ending. I think we're going to see something of an ant-war statement in how this plays out. And I don't mean that in a political sense, more of a not willing to sacrifice the lives of the innocent for power, no matter how good intentioned you may be.

It is a grind though watching her massive army, the dragons, and her coalition, get dismantled. It just builds her frustration and rage. Rhaegal/Missy is the tipping point IMO.

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every time Dany seemed really down and out and about to be destroyed

1. walked into a burning fire pit and walked out with 3 dragons

2. went into the house of the undying alone to rescue her dragons and burned the guy alive

3. Traded for the Unsullied and then Dracarys-ed the slave trader and then ordered the unsullied to kill the rest

4. Walked alone into the Khal temple and killed them all with fire and walked out

5. Under attack in an assassination attempt in the dragon pit she mounted the dragon, torched people and flew off.

6. Returned to Mereen amidst an assault and unleashed Drogon on the ships and slayed the masters and loosed the dothraki on the harpy's


In each of those cases she didn't listen to any advisers - particularly Tyrion or Jorah - and just unleashed her instincts. In the preview we see her standing alone at Dragonstone back to Tyrion..... probably planning something.

Considering she had a huge advantage when she came over from Westeros but listened to Tyrion and Jon and got 75% of her army and 2 of her dragons killed - I'm thinking she is done listening to others.

I'd be shocked if we didn't have a shocking twist of some epic proportions.

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^also

gigemJTH12 said:

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Zombie Jon Snow said:

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So...how bout some actual strategery......

those platforms with the dragon killer weapons are completely made of wood and vulnerable from the underside.

I'd use flaming arrows to light those on fire and try to take those out of commission.

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Or just fly high as **** in the air with the dragon and come down right on top of them and torch them with dragon fire. That thing cannot shoot straight in the air.

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^also pretty spot on