Everyone I know hated the faceless men season becuse all it gave us was Arya killing the Frey's and it seemed pointless otherwise. Littlefinger actually being alive because he is a faceless man too gives that season a little more meaning.
****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******
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Last: 1 yr ago by Prosperdick
I thought it was good tv, don't get me wrong. I just thought the architect of the GOT would go out with more of a bang than begging some teenagers for his life. I am just whinging at this point.
He dead dude.
Room temperature.
Pushing up daisies.
Worm food.
Direwolf poop.
He dead.
Room temperature.
Pushing up daisies.
Worm food.
Direwolf poop.
He dead.
Yeah my take on Littlefinger was that he had to be so good at playing the game to get to the Small Council from literally nothing, that it felt a little cheap for him to just get caught by the kid that can see everything that ever happened in the past.
Well the same reason why Ned was out maneuvered in Kings Landing is because he didn't understand how things worked in Kings Landing. Vice versa with Littlefinger in Winterfell.Urban Ag said:
I guess my problem with Littlefinger's demise was that it too obvious, at least to me. I can't believe anyone thought that Sansa would really hold some kangaroo court to go after her own sister who had gone through hell and back to get home to Winterfell.
LF was hated by the lords of the Vail. Hated by Sansa. Sansa didn't trust him, she knew what he was. Brienne hated him. Arya hated him. Bran used Bran-raven-vision to find out he put a knife to Ned's throat. It just seemed to easy, to obvious, and too contrived to me.
I guess you can make the argument that LF sending the Knights of the Vale north to save Jon's butt indebted Sansa to him but as a realist I know that women don't work that away. Sansa used him. And she'd never forget nor forgive that he gave her to the Bolton's so that she could be defiled by Ramsay, over and over again. LF was never going to "get right" with Sansa or the Starks. Ever.
LF maneuvering in KL is believable. LF maneuvering in the Vail is believable. LF manipulating the Stark kids in Winterfell while surrounded by Start allies? Nope.
Look, Littlefinger saved Sansa from Kings Landing (+1)
He saved her from the weirdly insane Aunt Lysa (we'll call that a wash)
He married her to Ramsay (-2)
He saved her and Jon at BoB (+2)
So he's at least at a +1 in his mind, and he's still holding out hope that Sansa will want to marry him. I think it is certainly believable that he is tricked into thinking he successfully turned the sisters against each other.
Look, he did screw her by marrying her to Ramsay but if you re-watch it, he DEFINITELY gives her the choice. He tells her he would never make her do something she didn't want to do. He talks her into the plan by convincing her to start taking control of her own life and her own actions, hinting at her getting revenge on Roose. She agrees and then continues with him to Winterfell. Afterwards, she certainly isn't taking any personal responsibility for the decision she made. Even in Winterfell, Littlefinger grills Ramsay hard about taking care of Sansa and treating her right, because he honestly doesn't know him. Then Roose comes over and assures him as well.
I know we all love the Starks and hate anyone that is mean to the Starks, but Roose was one of Rob's highest commanders and head of a well respected family in the north. He, as well as other generals in Rob's army, disagreed with Rob and Cat's leadership, especially after Ned was already executed, Jaime was freed, and Rob re-nigged on the Frey treaty. Rob wanted to continue fighting a war that had no purpose (except, ironically, to get Sansa back) and it led him into a trap with the Freys. Roose did turn on Rob, but if he hadn't, he ALSO would have been killed by the Freys thanks to Rob's leadership. Roose never hated the Starks, he just hated Rob's leadership. It was Theon who sacked Winterfell and his men who ultimately burned it to the ground. Ramsay was, by all means, the guy who went to take it back FOR the Starks.
Littlefinger sees Roose for who he is, a very cunning and smart politician, a great battle general, and someone that can bring stability to the North. If there was any reason the North was still waging war with the South, it was to get Sansa back and Littlefinger gives Sansa back to the North so they could come to peace. I believe he honestly has no idea about Ramsay (and Roose certainly underestimates how ****ty Ramsay is as well, seeing as how he's murdered by Ramsay in short order).
Hindsight is 20/20, but Littlefinger had no malice in marrying Sansa to Ramsay. He probably truly believed that was one of the safest places for her. Sure, Sansa doesn't see it that way, but that kind of context is how Littlefinger saw the world just before Sansa turned on him and had him executed.
But did they burn his body....Urban Ag said:
He dead dude.
Room temperature.
Pushing up daisies.
Worm food.
Direwolf poop.
He dead.
But then isn't that the only way he COULD get caught? If he's so good, then only someone who literally couldn't be lied to would be the one that catches him in a lie.SAtxag16 said:
Yeah my take on Littlefinger was that he had to be so good at playing the game to get to the Small Council from literally nothing, that it felt a little cheap for him to just get caught by the kid that can see everything that ever happened in the past.
If it wasn't Littlefinger, Arya would have noticed when she pulled his face off to use for later.
Did he know who Ramsay really was? Probably not.Quote:
Hindsight is 20/20, but Littlefinger had no malice in marrying Sansa to Ramsay. He probably truly believed that was one of the safest places for her. Sure, Sansa doesn't see it that way, but that kind of context is how Littlefinger saw the world just before Sansa turned on him and had him executed.
But to say there was no malice? That's generous. Hugely generous.
Littlefinger was only doing what he thought would further his own goals. (To eventually have Sansa in power and be named Warden of the North by marrying her.)
Holy crap, never thought I'd hear Ned Stark make a TWSS joke.
Ehh i suppose, but I don't think he necessarily needed to "get caught".smokeythebear said:But then isn't that the only way he COULD get caught? If he's so good, then only someone who literally couldn't be lied to would be the one that catches him in a lie.SAtxag16 said:
Yeah my take on Littlefinger was that he had to be so good at playing the game to get to the Small Council from literally nothing, that it felt a little cheap for him to just get caught by the kid that can see everything that ever happened in the past.
Maybe Sansa just finally takes a stand against him as opposed to exposing everything he's ever done. I don't know exactly how I would have preferred it, I just didn't love the way it went down. It was fine, just felt somewhat clunky. Season 7 as a whole was pretty clunky in my opinion.
My kids were bashing me for being obsessed with this show after I accused them of being obsessed with Avengers stuff. Then I thought it through and I've listened to about 8 hours of podcasts this week analyzing this first 55 minute episode along with all 1000+ posts on this thread, constant texting/talking with friends, 3 facebook groups blowing up, all the memes, rewatched season 1 this week because Arya told me too, etc. I'll watch the season 8 premier probably 2 more times this weekend. Best week ever.
Your kids may be on to something.
Littlefinger trusted Sansa with the truth about how Joffrey was murdered. She also covered for him in how Lysa was murdered (her own aunt). Littlefinger's only undoing in the world was his infatuation with Cat and then his infatuation with Sansa. You're right, he did it to put Sansa in a position of power, because he considered her a close ally and someone he could trust and control, thus, giving HIM more power.Brian Earl Spilner said:Did he know who Ramsay really was? Probably not.Quote:
Hindsight is 20/20, but Littlefinger had no malice in marrying Sansa to Ramsay. He probably truly believed that was one of the safest places for her. Sure, Sansa doesn't see it that way, but that kind of context is how Littlefinger saw the world just before Sansa turned on him and had him executed.
But to say there was no malice? That's generous. Hugely generous.
Littlefinger was only doing what he thought would further his own goals. (To eventually have Sansa in power and be named Warden of the North by marrying her.)
The only thing that makes more sense to me is to have Sansa stay with him in the Vale where he could maybe try and marry her, which (book readers can correct me on) is how GRRM actually wrote that part of the story.
Will the final prophesized betrayal of Dany, "betrayed for love", be Tyrion betraying her out of love for Jaime?
Apparently its in the books that Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen, thus, making him the next in line of succession once the Mad King and his whole line is killed off. Robert didn't insist in killing all of Ellia Martel's babies simply out of spite. He did it to legitimize his claim to the throne.Brian Earl Spilner said:I do keep wondering how/why Dany (and now Jon) can claim to be the true heirs if House Baratheon had the throne.Urban Ag said:
Jon is not the true heir to the throne.
House Targaryen was deposed. No Targaryen has any claim to the throne more legitimate than anyone else.
Robert had no legitimate heir in the form of a son because his children were not his children. And basturds don't count.
From a Westerosi legal/cultural perspective, the actual true legitimate successor to Robert was Stannis.
And all of this is simply academic because when it is all said and done the only true king or queen is the one that has the army that can take the throne and keep it. Just as the Targaryens did. Just as Robert did. Just as Cersei has done. Just as Dany intends to.
BUT, considering the "true heirs" are all dead, does it revert back to Targs? ("Legally" speaking.)
So, what happens if Jon and/or Dany decide to legitimize Gendry as a true heir of Robert Baratheon?
In rewatching a few episodes a few weeks back, another weird moment from Tyrion is when he's overlooking the battle when Dany and the Dothraki crushed Jaime, Bronn and the others on the way back from Highgarden.
Tyrion walks to the crest of the hill, sees it all unfolding before him and looks sad, defeated, confused, etc. One of the Dothraki guys with him says something like "Your people can't fight."
That's the first moment where I thought he looked "lost". Maybe he felt like he was betraying his own people, or maybe he was just appalled at how much of a thrashing it was. At that point he hadn't seen Jaime nor had he seen the dragon get hit with the scorpion. After he sees those things he visibly changes and wants Drogon/Dany safe and he doesn't want Jaime to commit suicide.
Tyrion walks to the crest of the hill, sees it all unfolding before him and looks sad, defeated, confused, etc. One of the Dothraki guys with him says something like "Your people can't fight."
That's the first moment where I thought he looked "lost". Maybe he felt like he was betraying his own people, or maybe he was just appalled at how much of a thrashing it was. At that point he hadn't seen Jaime nor had he seen the dragon get hit with the scorpion. After he sees those things he visibly changes and wants Drogon/Dany safe and he doesn't want Jaime to commit suicide.
Speaking of the Littlefinger scene, is everyone just cool with Bran being able to see the past now? When he recited Littlefinger's words to Ned, nobody was like, "Uh, you were in a coma, bud. How do you know that?" I only bring that up because if everyone at that trial was cool with Bran being the 3-Eyed Raven, then they are probably cool with Jon coming back to life.
I get that Littlefinger was already freaked because Bran had recited Littlefinger's lines to Varys back to him earlier about "chaos is a ladder" but everyone in that room seemed pretty on board with Bran being able to see the past.
I get that Littlefinger was already freaked because Bran had recited Littlefinger's lines to Varys back to him earlier about "chaos is a ladder" but everyone in that room seemed pretty on board with Bran being able to see the past.
Is that the sort of thing Northerners would be more open to because they worship the old gods and trees with faces? That seems like something where we're left to assume the dots were all connected and conversations took place off screen.
Why are people so over analyzing everything in the show after they ran out of source material. Not sure there is really THAT much depth to the characters as soon as they ran out of source... I mean the events in the north are SO different from the book the show runners just knew Littlefinger doesn't end up on the iron throne so they look for a way to kill him off that ties up some loose ends. It's not going to check every box that apparently GRRM takes 8 years to check, but it keeps the plot moving towards the ultimate conclusion.
MW03 said:
Speaking of the Littlefinger scene, is everyone just cool with Bran being able to see the past now? When he recited Littlefinger's words to Ned, nobody was like, "Uh, you were in a coma, bud. How do you know that?" I only bring that up because if everyone at that trial was cool with Bran being the 3-Eyed Raven, then they are probably cool with Jon coming back to life.
I get that Littlefinger was already freaked because Bran had recited Littlefinger's lines to Varys back to him earlier about "chaos is a ladder" but everyone in that room seemed pretty on board with Bran being able to see the past.
Why do you think anyone else knew what Bran meant?
Nobody else was there - that was just to rattle Littlefinger cuz he knows nobody else was there. He then realized they Bran everything.
Now we might assume Bran also told Sansa and Arya but anyone else there would not know the context or whether anyone witnessed it or not. And he didn't deny it. Along with all the other charges it would just be another thing - I doubt any of them would question it. They are not in charge anyway it was Sansa's court.
He's seen battles before, but I think he was shocked to see what he considered to be the greatest army, the Lannister army, get shredded to pieces so easily. I couldn't tell if it was because of the dothraki and their different style of fighting or if it was simply in awe of the destructive power of Drogon.Stive said:
In rewatching a few episodes a few weeks back, another weird moment from Tyrion is when he's overlooking the battle when Dany and the Dothraki crushed Jaime, Bronn and the others on the way back from Highgarden.
Tyrion walks to the crest of the hill, sees it all unfolding before him and looks sad, defeated, confused, etc. One of the Dothraki guys with him says something like "Your people can't fight."
That's the first moment where I thought he looked "lost". Maybe he felt like he was betraying his own people, or maybe he was just appalled at how much of a thrashing it was. At that point he hadn't seen Jaime nor had he seen the dragon get hit with the scorpion. After he sees those things he visibly changes and wants Drogon/Dany safe and he doesn't want Jaime to commit suicide.
But I agree with you, he has started to lose his wits as the story has become more physical fighting rather than political fighting and he's simply not as good at the former as the latter.
Interesting. Had no idea.
Well it sure wasn't by choice.
I mean a huge part of the appeal of the show in my opinion is the politics, character development, and the interactions between characters, so it would be pretty disappointing if they just looked for the easiest way to kill of people who don't end up on the throne.
It's about the game of thrones not just who ends up on the Iron Throne at the end.
It's about the game of thrones not just who ends up on the Iron Throne at the end.
Can only books have depth?Quote:
Why are people so over analyzing everything in the show after they ran out of source material. Not sure there is really THAT much depth to the characters as soon as they ran out of source...
We don't reach these kinds of post counts by just saying "that's nice, I like the way it ended."Quote:
Why are people so over analyzing everything in the show
Yea, it makes a lot more sense as to why Tywin and Ned supported Robert's claim after the war. Robert wasn't particularly good at being a field general or a leader (though I think he was an efficient killer in battle), and Robert's goal was never to take the throne, he just wanted to rescue Lyana. But once Ned and Tywin got into the war, they had the goal of taking out the Mad King because, well, he was mad and was murdering people all over the place. You'd think Tywin would have wanted the crown for himself if he could have gotten away with it but I suppose Ned and Robert wouldn't have let that fly.
Come to think of it, when do we meet Tywin in the show? I wonder why he wasn't around when Robert asked Ned to become his Hand? I feel like the first time we meet him is on the battlefield where he's preparing to fight Rob.
Come to think of it, when do we meet Tywin in the show? I wonder why he wasn't around when Robert asked Ned to become his Hand? I feel like the first time we meet him is on the battlefield where he's preparing to fight Rob.
Sine poena nulla lex.
Brian Earl Spilner said:Can only books have depth?Quote:
Why are people so over analyzing everything in the show after they ran out of source material. Not sure there is really THAT much depth to the characters as soon as they ran out of source...
No, but doesn't seem like we've had it from this show since source ran out. Its turned much more good guy/bad guy you know who to pull for versus the machinations of the earlier seasons when you don't know who to pull for. I still love the show but I'm not expecting stuff like Jon's heritage that was so intricately places in the books to be recreated by the show. Just like I don't think they show writers had a long drawn out meeting about how every different party would react to littlefinger dying in x way. I'm enjoying it just for the spectacle it is now.
Quote:
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You do realize I have no idea what you're trying to say, right?
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