bangobango said:

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G Martin 87 said:

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redline248 said:

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Don't think the books made it that far yet

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In the books, Jaqen transformed his face in front of Arya at Harrenhal. He did not do so by putting on a "skinned" face like we've seen in the show.

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Yeah, this is what I was thinking of. Pretty sure he does something similar in the show, too. Like waves his hand in front of his face and it changes or something like that.

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My head canon is that if the goal is to impersonate someone specific and fool friends and family, the Faceless Man has to have that person's actual face to achieve the realism necessary to make it believable. If the Faceless Man only needs to change their appearance, like to an anonymous serving girl or a nondescript soldier, then he/she doesn't need a harvested face.

G Martin 87 said:

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redline248 said:

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Don't think the books made it that far yet

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In the books, Jaqen transformed his face in front of Arya at Harrenhal. He did not do so by putting on a "skinned" face like we've seen in the show.

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In the show he turned his back to her before his face changed. I don't remember the exact details in the book. Either way, the books have not given an explanation of how it's done.

Couple things:

1) People saying there is a spy in Dany's camp are way off-base. The simple fact is that Jamie is a seasoned military commander and Tyrion is not. It absolutely makes sense that Jamie out-maneuvered his less-experienced brother. I tend to think this extends to the Yara/Euron battle as well.

2) That being said, why wasn't Highgarden better equipped for that fight? Weren't they supposed to have an untouched army preparing to march on KL? I'm not REALLY going to complain as I'm fine glossing over this if you consider the strategic strength of Jamie and the Lannister army with Randall and the Tarley army, but hindsight sure makes you wonder how the Tyrell army was supposed to lay siege to KL effectively if they couldn't even defend their own castle. Also, someone asked this: when Highgarden was attacked, they easily could have sent a raven to Dragonstone to let Dany know what was happening. Dany would know quickly. Same with CR.

3) Honestly, I'm really surprised the greyscale thing worked. I thought it was going to require dragon glass. Speaking of dragon glass/greyscale, didn't Melisandre say she was going to Volantis? Is that similar/close to Valyria (the old city that is overrun with greyscale?). Just seems weird to me to go through all this history and agony about greyscale if the only upside is that Jorah gets saved. I really thought there would be a larger play here in reclaiming the old city or discovering something there that would help in the war with the undead.

4) I didn't notice Euron's ship in the CR bay, though someone else said they saw it. Assuming it was not his ship, it would make sense to me that Euron left KL shortly after Yara/Greyworm left Dragonstone. He caught up with Yara and took her out. Then he told half his fleet to keep following Greyworm while he took the other half back to KL. Doesn't really bother me either way, but maybe that would make people feel better about Euron's super fast ships. Let's not forget he and his men are seasoned pirates. They could easily follow an unsuspecting navy without being detected, waiting for the ideal moment to strike.

5) Never heard of this theory before, but someone mentioned it is more likely that Jamie and Cersi were Arys' children than Tyrion because of this "wedding day" situation. I didn't read the books, but is it possible they are twins but from different fathers? Apparently this is a very rare thing, but not unheard of. That would explain why Cersi is so similar to the Mad King while Jamie is so similar to Tywin. HIGHLY doubt this is a real thing, but who knows, crazier things have happened.

smokeythebear said:

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2) That being said, why wasn't Highgarden better equipped for that fight? Weren't they supposed to have an untouched army preparing to march on KL?

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In the scene when Jaime comes in Olenna asks:

"Did we fight well? It was never our forte. Golden roses indeed."

Besides maybe book Loras, the Highgarden people aren't known for their fighting skills. Also, I assume many of their bannermen are on the other side with the Tarlys.

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but is it possible they are twins but from different fathers?

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No.

M.C. Swag said:

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I think LF still has it from when Catelyn brought it to KL in season 1 but I could be wrong.

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Maybe LF has it. Bran outs him to them. Arya kills him with it and then carries it. It is valerian steel. She will assassinate a few Walkers.

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2) That being said, why wasn't Highgarden better equipped for that fight? Weren't they supposed to have an untouched army preparing to march on KL? I'm not REALLY going to complain as I'm fine glossing over this if you consider the strategic strength of Jamie and the Lannister army with Randall and the Tarley army, but hindsight sure makes you wonder how the Tyrell army was supposed to lay siege to KL effectively if they couldn't even defend their own castle. Also, someone asked this: when Highgarden was attacked, they easily could have sent a raven to Dragonstone to let Dany know what was happening. Dany would know quickly. Same with CR.

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This was supposed to be a Dorne + Tyrell tag team event + more of the Lannister army was supposed to be at least somewhat occupied defending/getting killed at Casterly Rock. In that view, there is at least a plausible scenario where the golden roses are useful enough to help with an effective siege.

Yea, I know. And like I said, I'm not really complaining about it because it is easy enough to explain away with Tarly switching sides. I suppose Olenna was expecting Tarly to be leading the siege on KL instead of the siege on HG. Meaning HG didn't even have a competent commander to defend the city.

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Never heard of this theory before, but someone mentioned it is more likely that Jamie and Cersi were Arys' children than Tyrion because of this "wedding day" situation. I didn't read the books, but is it possible they are twins but from different fathers? Apparently this is a very rare thing, but not unheard of. That would explain why Cersi is so similar to the Mad King while Jamie is so similar to Tywin. HIGHLY doubt this is a real thing, but who knows, crazier things have happened.

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I only brought it up to evidence the incredulity of Tyrion being a Targaryen. The books are soo detailed and broad in scope that almost any single line of dialogue in thousands of pages of text can be used to support almost any far fetched 'theory.'

I don't believe any of the Lannister children are Targaryens. It would just cheapen the story. Cersei being a reflection of the mad king is just a poetic arc for Jamie. And Tyrion represents a physical representation of Tywin. A literal 'shortcoming' of his characteristics (in the eyes of Tywin).

FightinTexasAg15 said:

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smokeythebear said:

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2) That being said, why wasn't Highgarden better equipped for that fight? Weren't they supposed to have an untouched army preparing to march on KL?

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In the scene when Jaime comes in Olenna asks:

"Did we fight well? It was never our forte. Golden roses indeed."

Besides maybe book Loras, the Highgarden people aren't known for their fighting skills. Also, I assume many of their bannermen are on the other side with the Tarlys.

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but is it possible they are twins but from different fathers?

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No.

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Yep. Jaime flipped Tarly and a lot of bannermen followed him, just as Jaime said in their conversation.

Dammit, I just wrote out a long piece about the book's version of the catspaw and lost it all...

Basically:
--The unnamed dagger is described as plain with a smooth dragonbone hilt
--Littlefinger had the dagger originally
--LF lost it to Robert in a bet (but Robert was really drunk)
--Catelyn brought it to Kings Landing after the catspaw made his attempt
--LF told Catelyn he lost the dagger to Tyrion to frame Tyrion
--Catelyn gave it to Ned and took off for home, but encountered Tyrion along the way and brought him to the Eyrie for "justice"
--Tyrion denied ever owning it
--LF took the dagger back from Ned when Ned was arrested at KL
--When Tyrion became Hand, he wanted to confront LF about the dagger that almost got him killed
--When Joffrey is given Widow's Wail he brags its not his first time handling Valyrian steel
--Tyrion figures out that it was probably Joffrey who ordered the assassination, stealing the blade from his father's weapons cache (because Robert only ever used the hunting knife given him by Jon Arryn)
--<Joffrey dies>
--Jaime confirms it was Joffrey during a conversation with Cersei, and that Joffrey had stolen it and sent the catspaw as a twisted way of pleasing his "dad" who he overheard saying "someone should put the boy out of his misery"...
--When Jaime releases Tyrion from the Red Keep dungeons they agree it was Joffrey who made the clumsy attempt

tldr; LF still has the dagger in the books...

Awesome info, thanks!

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Valyrian_steel_dagger

Anyone else notice how Sansa is starting to trust and listen to LF again? The quick glance at him when Jon declared her in charge before leaving last week, and then his little teaching lesson this week about her needing to be even more strategic and always thinking of every possibility? Pair that with her less than stellar reunion with Bran, her less than stellar reunion with Jon, and her cold-hearted "Rickon is dead, there's no saving him now". I imagine Arya makes it back to Winterfell and, I'm going to go out on a limb here, it's not going to be as warm of a reunion as viewers are expecting. Sansa is starting to feel trust in LF and realizing she doesn't know her siblings at all anymore (especially once she learns that Jon isn't actually her brother).

Also, another crazy theory: What if there's proof of Jon's parentage in the Dragonstone crypt that Jon stumbles upon while looking for the dragon glass?

I thought it was a great episode, but I was kinda disappointed with how quickly they glossed over the Unsullied taking CR and the Lannisters taking Highgarden. I know time is at a premium this close to the finale, but it seems like we should have had a more drawn out battle sequence with each of those, especially considering the lengthy histories of those two castles and all involved.

BallerStaf2003 said:

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redline248 said:

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BallerStaf2003 said:

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Tyrion is also a dragon rider/Targaryen and she hasn't caught onto that either.

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absolutely zero evidence of this being the case.

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Yes, there is.

Tyrion's mother died at childbirth. So did Jon Snow and Daenerys' mother.

The Mad King visited and always bedded the Lord of where he was visiting's wife.

Tywin said "you are a Lannister since I cannot price you are not mine"

The dragons did not attack him when he entered their crypt.

In the books he frequently talks about how interested he is in dragons and fire.



He is absolutely half Targaryen

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They also make an issue in the books that "blood will tell."

Several of Robert's *******s look just like him - that was how Jon Arryn knew that Cersi's kids weren't Roberts.

Books mention several times that the Targs have white hair and purple eyes, and that the Lannisters have green eyes. Book describes Tyrion as having one green eye and one black (it appeared purple) one peered out from under a lank of hair so blonde it seemed white.

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Cersei being a reflection of the mad king is just a poetic arc for Jamie

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This is it. In the book Jaime's internal monologue gives you a very good understanding of his motivations and beliefs. He killed the king knowing it would stain him, but as Aery's was about to burn Kings Landing so he did what he had to. Cersei blowing up the sept(sp?) is not something that would sit well with him. That part of Jaime doesn't come through as well in the show.

smokeythebear said:

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Couple things:

1) People saying there is a spy in Dany's camp are way off-base. The simple fact is that Jamie is a seasoned military commander and Tyrion is not. It absolutely makes sense that Jamie out-maneuvered his less-experienced brother. I tend to think this extends to the Yara/Euron battle as well.

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Although he gets little credit Tyrion is the reason his side won the Battle of the Blackwater. He's a great strategist. The show did a poor job of conveying the machinations it took for him to set up the chain in the river. I felt like his being "outsmarted" was more of a show only occurrence to have Daenerys take some punches.

Dan 07 said:

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I thought it was a great episode, but I was kinda disappointed with how quickly they glossed over the Unsullied taking CR and the Lannisters taking Highgarden. I know time is at a premium this close to the finale, but it seems like we should have had a more drawn out battle sequence with each of those, especially considering the lengthy histories of those two castles and all involved.

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Has there really been much of a lengthy history in the show for either of the castles?

You know, there has been almost no mention of Littlefinger by Cersei or Jaime. They believed him an ally of the crown last season, right? Right up until he led the vale against the Boltons. I assume they know about that. Surely they haven't forgotten about him.

Streetfighter 02 said:

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smokeythebear said:

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Couple things:

1) People saying there is a spy in Dany's camp are way off-base. The simple fact is that Jamie is a seasoned military commander and Tyrion is not. It absolutely makes sense that Jamie out-maneuvered his less-experienced brother. I tend to think this extends to the Yara/Euron battle as well.

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Although he gets little credit Tyrion is the reason his side won the Battle of the Blackwater. He's a great strategist.

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Tyrion is a good military commander. He isnt the battle field general that Jaime is, but these weren't exactly bad moves. Tyrion doesn't know Casterly Rock's gold is gone. I'm sure there was selfish motivation too, but the resources that he thinks are there would have been greatly beneficial.

Predicting that Euron is going to stage a night time raid to wipe out part of the fleet isn't exactly realistic, but even if he thought there was a good chance he would try to hit them wouldn't he need Yara to simply win that battle? That was Yara's fleet ****ting the bed.

Streetfighter 02 said:

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smokeythebear said:

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Couple things:

1) People saying there is a spy in Dany's camp are way off-base. The simple fact is that Jamie is a seasoned military commander and Tyrion is not. It absolutely makes sense that Jamie out-maneuvered his less-experienced brother. I tend to think this extends to the Yara/Euron battle as well.

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Although he gets little credit Tyrion is the reason his side won the Battle of the Blackwater. He's a great strategist.

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Ummm....yeah....Jamie was outsmarted several times by less seasoned leaders (Robb for example which is why he was a captive).

And uhhhh....if he were smarter he would still have 2 hands - instead he was showboating with Brienne underestimating her skill and lost the hand to Boltons bannermen since they can't kill him.

Not only that how stupid do you have to be to push a kid out a window and not make sure he dies.


I'm thinking he is benefitting from a very shrewd scheming Cersei and very very dirty fighter in Euron. Going to sack Highgarden was very much Cersei - she needed the gold. And Euron coming behind the fleet to demolish them was likely Eurons doing. All Jamie had to do was wipe up a lesser army at Highgarden. And Euron again was the protagonist and maybe even acting alone in attacking Yara and Ellaria for his own gains.

Am I the only one that thinks Euron found Yara's fleet by coincidence? Cersei/Jaime predicted Dany would go to Dragonstone, so did they tell Euron to sail that way? He couldn't have possibly known that Yara's fleet had already left to go to Dorne.

Along those lines, did Yara or Tyrion think the seas were completely empty of any opposition?

Sorry, I meant to say that Yara was just out maneuvered by her more seasoned uncle. Euron is just a better pirate than Yara which explains why he won. Not that it was Tyrion's fault she lost.

Jamie said it himself, he learned after being bested by Robb. Jamie definitely outsmarted Tyrion.

I'm just here for the death of the sand snakes.

DannyDuberstein said:

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Semantics. He snuck up on her fleet and basically drove his boat thru her cooch before she knew he was there. Seems like some form of out-maneuvering was involved.

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Just making the point that due to what appeared to be gross negligence, Yara was beaten before she even entered the fray.

Zombie Jon Snow said:

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Streetfighter 02 said:

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smokeythebear said:

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Couple things:

1) People saying there is a spy in Dany's camp are way off-base. The simple fact is that Jamie is a seasoned military commander and Tyrion is not. It absolutely makes sense that Jamie out-maneuvered his less-experienced brother. I tend to think this extends to the Yara/Euron battle as well.

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Although he gets little credit Tyrion is the reason his side won the Battle of the Blackwater. He's a great strategist.

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Ummm....yeah....Jamie was outsmarted several times by less seasoned leaders (Robb for example which is why he was a captive).

And uhhhh....if he were smarter he would still have 2 hands - instead he was showboating with Brienne underestimating her skill and lost the hand to Boltons bannermen since they can't kill him.

Not only that how stupid do you have to be to push a kid out a window and not make sure he dies.


I'm thinking he is benefitting from a very shrewd scheming Cersei and very very dirty fighter in Euron. Going to sack Highgarden was very much Cersei - she needed the gold. And Euron coming behind the fleet to demolish them was likely Eurons doing. All Jamie had to do was wipe up a lesser army at Highgarden. And Euron again was the protagonist and maybe even acting alone in attacking Yara and Ellaria for his own gains.

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Jaime said in his discussion with O that it was the same maneuver Robb Stark pulled on him in the early campaign. I think we are supposed to take that Jaime is becoming a more wizened and seasoned military leader.

We will have to see what the fallout is for Tyrion as the Hand. If there is little to no repercussion other than Dany getting pissed and riding off with her Dragons, then I would say much of this is drummed up to add to the drama and we are not supposed to read too much into Tyrion getting his ass worked over by Jaime. If Tyrion is demoted from the Hand, then it may be important as a plot element, too.

redline248 said:

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Am I the only one that thinks Euron found Yara's fleet by coincidence? Cersei/Jaime predicted Dany would go to Dragonstone, so did they tell Euron to sail that way? He couldn't have possibly known that Yara's fleet had already left to go to Dorne.

Along those lines, did Yara or Tyrion think the seas were completely empty of any opposition?

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Not to get back into this, but Euron finding Yara in the dead of night like that without some serious intel that was not revealed to us is really, really unrealistic. Even then, it would be hard to believe. The way that they had it was beyond ridiculous and completely unrealistic for how naval warfare with less sophisticated technology really happens.

yeah, yeah, I know the show has magic and dragons. yada yada save your breath.