quote:

---

quote:

---

I just hope they don't drag out the Jon Snow resurrection for half the season. Everyone knows it's coming, so just get it done and move on.

---

count me as someone that wouldn't be bothered by that. i'd be fine investing some time in seeing Davos, Mel, the loyal few Nights Watch dudes, and Tormund/wildlings wrecking shop first - plus we probably need Bran seeing **** (ToJ maybe?) before Jon is brought back. i could see it being a couple episodes still (and i'd like to get somewhere with Dany first, so an Essos-focused episode 2 or 3 would be my preference)

---

I would hope that the Jon stuff doesn't get dragged out too long (i'm hoping by episode 3), but I do think that they may either skip his storyline completely next week or leave it until the end of the episode. Either way, Bran's storyline coming back next week could allow the ToJ scene to happen first. That could very well be the scene right before Jon is brought back.

I was totally expecting her to freak the f-ck out. But she took it like a champ.

I wonder if she is gonna go "Varys" on religion/magics/etc. We still havent seen her fighting the Faith/Sparrows yet.

quote:

---

I'm operating under the assumption that the tv show does reveal what matters and what doesn't. The tv guys are the only people other than GRRM that know how the story ends. If they don't include certain characters, I take it as an indication those characters were ultimately not crucial to the plot endgame.

---

My perspective for the books is different I guess. There is a ton of stuff that isn't "crucial" since the story could have found a different way to the same conclusion, but they still matter based on how GRRM wrote the books. Just because the Ironborn will likely be Dany's fleet doesn't mean that they have any bearing on the final outcome of the series (although Euron in particular very well could play a major role). GRRM could have just given her a separate fleet or prevented the one she had from being destroyed in the first place.

The same can be said for Dorne. All of the plotting to mary Arianne to a Targaryen could result in nothing. Aegon's invasion of Westeros could result in him simply being killed. That doesn't mean that they don't pave the way for someone else and influence the overall arc of the story though. Aegon's presence may simply help organize support for a Targaryen that Dany can capitalize on once she returns (it would save her time after all). The show may choose to exclude any one though if they don't make it to the end and their plans aren't 100% realized because a lot of viewers would just find it as a waste of time at this point in the story. That's how I'm feeling about the Dorne storyline at this point, because I don't see what the Sand Snakes could possibly do that is bigger than what Doran had planned (sure they could kill some people, but they aren't going to replace them with a regime of their own).

An example of the things I see as relevant even though they ultimately aren't the endgame is Robb's campaign. It made sense in the story even though nothing really came of it. His decisions still influenced the course of the story though. It made the Bolton storyline possible which in turn makes a potential northern revolt and Stark comeback possible. Does it have anything to do with the White Walkers though?

Pretty good reddit post addressing some of the points people are calling out as "plot holes"

http://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/4gbjht/everything_the_plot_holes_that_werent_really_plot/

quote:

---

Just read the SHOW ONLY thread. Bubbles McNulty, but those people are a whiny, persecuted bunch of biatches.

LALALALALALALA THE BOOKS DON'T EXIST YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR OPINIONS HERE LALALALALALA

---

Are we really doing this every season?

I keep seeing people say the episode was disappointing, but I really enjoyed it. They touched on every single storyline (save Bran) which I appreciated, given that they are setting the scene for the entire season. I thought it was especially appropriate with how full the season 5 finale was with respect to major events. Each one of those topics deserved a quick touch, IMO.

I like all of your points, they are well reasoned and don't really disagree with any of them in particular. Although I do think you are giving GRRM too much credit when you assume there was a grand design to all these storylines having some tangential impact on the endgame. IMHO it seems much more likely GRRM was weighed down by his own success and fear of failing to write an epic worthy of comparison to LOTR. This created a sort of writers block which both slowed down the writing and expanded the scope of the story, number of storylines, etc. Just look at the publication timeline compared to other fantasy works:

He's part direwolf.

quote:

---

quote:

---

Just read the SHOW ONLY thread. Bubbles McNulty, but those people are a whiny, persecuted bunch of biatches.

LALALALALALALA THE BOOKS DON'T EXIST YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR OPINIONS HERE LALALALALALA

---

Are we really doing this every season?

---

Yeah, it's pathetic.

quote:

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Just read the SHOW ONLY thread. Bubbles McNulty, but those people are a whiny, persecuted bunch of biatches.

LALALALALALALA THE BOOKS DON'T EXIST YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR OPINIONS HERE LALALALALALA

---

Are we really doing this every season?

---

Yeah, it's pathetic.

---

They haven't read the books and don't want us spoiling their fun. Why is that so hard?

---

Just to clarify, I'm in agreement with you. I think it's pathetic every year when people can't accept that and go over and argue with them on the thread on how they're "not really spoiling" anything.

Kind of like Lucas and Star Wars. It is his baby, but it took Disney buying it to get it up to potential (hopefully).

quote:

---

I like all of your points, they are well reasoned and don't really disagree with any of them in particular. Although I do think you are giving GRRM too much credit when you assume there was a grand design to all these storylines having some tangential impact on the endgame. IMHO it seems much more likely GRRM was weighed down by his own success and fear of failing to write an epic worthy of comparison to LOTR. This created a sort of writers block which both slowed down the writing and expanded the scope of the story, number of storylines, etc. Just look at the publication timeline compared to other fantasy works:

---

Haha I won't argue that. I think he has mentioned that he does have a general outline of the where he is going and a few of the major events but that much of it in between is done as he goes (which is yet another reason he takes for-eh-vuh to write each book...especially when he decides to go back and re-write it a different way). The fact that he doesn't know parts of the story until he writes them though means that there definitely could be some things in the books that are meaningful that weren't included in the show. That said, I still don't think they will be the major influences on the story (which I assume are the ones he already has planned). The show is really having to do more of their own work now for sure. I'm sure the writers enjoy it, but I wonder if it is part of the reason why the next season (or two) are rumored to be shorter.

quote:

---

quote:

---

I like all of your points, they are well reasoned and don't really disagree with any of them in particular. Although I do think you are giving GRRM too much credit when you assume there was a grand design to all these storylines having some tangential impact on the endgame. IMHO it seems much more likely GRRM was weighed down by his own success and fear of failing to write an epic worthy of comparison to LOTR. This created a sort of writers block which both slowed down the writing and expanded the scope of the story, number of storylines, etc. Just look at the publication timeline compared to other fantasy works:

---

Haha I won't argue that. I think he has mentioned that he does have a general outline of the where he is going and a few of the major events but that much of it in between is done as he goes (which is yet another reason he takes for-eh-vuh to write each book...especially when he decides to go back and re-write it a different way). The fact that he doesn't know parts of the story until he writes them though means that there definitely could be some things in the books that are meaningful that weren't included in the show. That said, I still don't think they will be the major influences on the story (which I assume are the ones he already has planned). The show is really having to do more of their own work now for sure. I'm sure the writers enjoy it, but I wonder if it is part of the reason why the next season (or two) are rumored to be shorter.

---

I think this a downside to the thing that makes the world so good, it's character driven. Not only that it is a massive world of over 1000 characters and it's driven by those characters. It would take an extremely long time to sort out each story without plot driven or deus exes to drop in.

quote:

---

Pretty good reddit post addressing some of the points people are calling out as "plot holes"

http://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/4gbjht/everything_the_plot_holes_that_werent_really_plot/

---

sorry that doesn't really fill in any of the holes. it just lays out some very unsupported assertions that have already been made in post.

quote:

---

quote:

---

Pretty good reddit post addressing some of the points people are calling out as "plot holes"

http://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/4gbjht/everything_the_plot_holes_that_werent_really_plot/

---

sorry that doesn't really fill in any of the holes. it just lays out some very unsupported assertions that have already been made in post.

---

example? because i'm not convinced any of those points are plot holes at all

quote:

---

Loved seeing Theon grow back some of his testicular fortitude. He is no slouch if he can get back to his old self a little.

---

missed this post, 100% agree. Theon may be may favorite overall character in both the shows and the books (up there with Jaime), and i've been really waiting for that redemption arc

Book and show have gone down such different paths that I now expect full divergence. As in, the show could have an ending completely different from the books.

Otherwise, how would GRRM ever expect you to read another Dorne POV chapter? Especially years after the show ends? He needs divergence to sell books.

quote:

---

Book and show have gone down such different paths that I now expect full divergence. As in, the show could have an ending completely different from the books.

Otherwise, how would GRRM ever expect you to read another Dorne POV chapter? Especially years after the show ends? He needs divergence to sell books.

---

Only if GRRM totally changes his story. The show writers know the overarching stories for each character through the end (i.e. The fact that Mel is 200+ years old is straight from GRRM).

Details will be different but both will be pretty similar. For example, the Dorne storyline in the book will be more detailed and drawn out, but the important thing was getting the Sand Snakes into KL. Last night's episode implied that is basically the only important part of that story, which is why the writers had to make it work on a much more compressed timeline.

The very first point about the sand snakes on the boat. Quite literally nothing foreshadowed their appearance on the boat last season. Just because we can fill in a story how they conceivably got there does not make it so. That's bad writing.

Tristane was going to KL. Do you expect him to be surrounded by lannisters?

quote:

---

The very first point about the sand snakes on the boat. Quite literally nothing foreshadowed their appearance on the boat last season. Just because we can fill in a story how they conceivably got there does not make it so. That's bad writing.

---

or bad (lack of) imagination and critical thinking skills.

do they need to spoon feed you everything????

WHY????? would they want to foreshadow their appearance on the boat last season....or even this season???

It's called a SURPRISE or a twist. Had they shown 2 of them getting on a boat shortly after Jaime leaves well I think his murder would be a foregone conclusion and not so shocking when it happened.


I suppose you think they should have shown Bruce Willis character getting shot early in The Sixth Sense....cuz you know you wouldn't want to have the audience trying to figure out what happened. Yeah thats a better way to do it. That movie would have been awesome if they just would have given away the entire thing at the beginning.

quote:

---

Tristane was going to KL. Do you expect him to be surrounded by lannisters?

---

This is not a fully formed thought.


The issue is that nothing was shown that would indicate the sand snakes left the dock. it's bad writing or a crucial scene was left on the cutting floor. Either way that makes it a plot hole.

Wrong. It's like you guys have no understanding of foreshadowing or why it is used.

Bruce Willis being dead was foreshadowed through the entire movie. You may not have realized it before the reveal but when you think back to the movie you realize it makes sense. That's how it works.

There is like 10 of em. And thanks to lucius verrinus's wife, you know everyone in dorne despises doran and trystane.

quote:

---

The issue is that nothing was shown that would indicate the sand snakes left the dock.

---

Ever?

Agree that it would have been more linear to omit them from the dock scene ("oh so that's where they were!").

Disagree that it's a big deal to just assume they took a separate boat. I mean Jaime doesn't travel with a casket, so I assume they stopped somewhere along the way.

Also the hounds disappearing was a mistake.

FWIW
The other 3 points on that Reddit I have no problem with and don't think they were issues.

Nothing about Brienne's fighting or Melissandre or finding the ring were plot holes.

Just 1&5

Look I'm not trashing the series or trying to pick nits. They screwed up. It happens in a multi arc multi season saga. Nothing wrong with pointing it out.

Good lord dude. Calm down. The writers/directors blew it. It happens. No need for you to ride across westeros defending their honor.

quote:

---

Wrong. It's like you guys have no understanding of foreshadowing or why it is used.

Bruce Willis being dead was foreshadowed through the entire movie. You may not have realized it before the reveal but when you think back to the movie you realize it makes sense. That's how it works.

---

it's like you have no concept of not giving something away.

yes there was foreshadowing in Sixth Sense....we are talking about a full length feature film there designed to mislead you and subtly drop clues....this was a couple of segments of a TV show that were months and months apart (when shown). If they showed anything relating to the sand snakes leaving on a ship 8 months ago everyone would be convinced Trystane was going to be killed by them and they would have talked about it for 8 months. As it was....nobody saw it coming. Everyone was worried about Jon's resurrection (which has had plenty of foreshadowing, its as if you don;t think they know how to do that....they do it a lot).

I applaud them here for keeping something totally secret and a surprise.....but it still makes sense and is logical.