Wow, insiders badmouthing their own movie already. That was fast.

When I saw 100+ posts, I should have known it would be nothing but tweets and pointless bickering

redline248 said:

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When I saw 100+ posts, I should have known it would be nothing but tweets and pointless bickering

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I play to my strengths.

RDJ, Evans and Hemsworth were great casting choices and had presence on screen.

I'm not sure that all the new movies totally suck, but they definitely are lacking the gravitas that a leading man or woman can bring to a film.

Chris Pratt in the GotG movies is probably the best example of this, a ludicrous sounding film about comic characters I've never heard of, but that movie rocked.

Obviously script, plot etc. matters as well so it's not a panacea to have charismatic leads with gravitas, but I think it can kill a movie when the lead isn't convincing.

Disney itself is also likely still suffering from a lack of unified creative direction as they try to chart their course forward considering if they are a movie company or a promoter of social and progressive causes. Until they sort that and make hiring decisions based on using the best talent they can afford, I think they'll continue to put out movies that don't connect with most of us.

They're 35 movies into a 17-year-old franchise. It's a we're-running-out-of-ideas-and-A-list-actors problem, not a woke problem. Never mind that Marvel is run by a middle aged white guy.

Just got out. Mediocre and cheesy at times. Harrison Ford was good though.

Not for nothing, but there are plenty of middle aged white guys ate up with the woke.

And before you go on a diatribe, I don't think MCU suffers from that particular affliction.

Sea Speed said:

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Not for nothing, but there are plenty of middle aged white guys are up with the woke.

And before you go on a diatribe, I don't think MCU suffers from that particular affliction.

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Not to the degree some would accuse them of, but I've definitely heard the Russo brothers going woke in the past. Even to the point of writing it into Endgame as a character for one of them.

When you look at some of the MCUs recent choices for who to direct these films, I'd say it's not illogical to wonder if they are hiring the best directors they can, or if they are trying to ensure representation and opportunities for people with diverse backgrounds.

ETA, I'm not necessarily an anti woke warrior, but when you are a multi billion dollar company trying to make billion dollar movies, it shouldn't be hard to get the top directors to make your movies if you wanted them. In the post Endgame MCU, we just haven't seen them rolling out top talent IMO and seem to have been taking chances with relatively inexperienced directors to try and lead these movies.

Movies are like any other business. It's often who can deliver the best product for the lowest cost, not who is the best we can hire who's also going to cost a fortune. Not to mention, Marvel has a certain way of doing things and they aren't always looking to hire a veteran auteur who's going to be highly opinionated, wants full creative control, etc. Often the point *is* the inexperience, because that's someone they can mold/a cog they can plug into their system. I don't always agree with that approach, but either way it has next to nothing to do with diversity for diversity sake. It's all about cost and control.

In some cases I'd agree with you, but here I just have trouble making the math work.

You have a 200 million budget, and hope to net 500 million or more. But if the movie sucks, you only break even, if that. If you invest an extra 15 million for a top director, you easily make that back by helping to ensure that your product doesn't suck.

Now, on the creative control side... I get that, but why would Disney risk millions of dollars just so they can have creative control? In phase 1-3 they had experienced directors at the helm of some of these movies.

AggieEP said:

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When you look at some of the MCUs recent choices for who to direct these films, I'd say it's not illogical to wonder if they are hiring the best directors they can, or if they are trying to ensure representation and opportunities for people with diverse backgrounds.

ETA, I'm not necessarily an anti woke warrior, but when you are a multi billion dollar company trying to make billion dollar movies, it shouldn't be hard to get the top directors to make your movies if you wanted them. In the post Endgame MCU, we just haven't seen them rolling out top talent IMO and seem to have been taking chances with relatively inexperienced directors to try and lead these movies.

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The movies are set to a specific script and part of a shared universe with a specific look that's telling a linked story. There's very, very little room for individual directors to impart their ideas and fingerprint to the film. Gunn had to rework what he intended for GotG3 because of what the shared universe demanded. So I don't think established directors are exactly lining up around the block to make these movies.

Also, do you really think they didn't intentionally hire a black man to direct BNW because the lead is black? They did the same thing with hiring Coogler to run Black Panther.

Again, I'm actually pretty open minded about a lot of things that are probably considered woke, but I don't think it's crazy to think Disney is reducing the talent pool they hire from for reasons that have nothing to do with making good movies.

Cheesy. Awful plot. Harrison Ford and "Gus" (I'll spell his name wrong) from Breaking Bad were good performances

We actually left the movie with probably 10-15 mins left. It just wasn't good and we didn't care how it ended. It made Thor Dark World look like Shawshank. Whoever wrote this screen play should find a new job

I'm of the opinion that "woke," in general, went way too far these past eight or so years, but this is where the conversation/anti-woke crowd starts to lose me. I'm sorry, but it's probably a good thing to have black directors directing black-led Marvel movies. Sure, the results can be hit or miss (Coogler and Onah seemingly being on opposite ends of that spectrum), but this perfect-world, everything-should-be-ruthlessly-merit-based ideal is a pipe dream, and sometimes what matters more is hiring a black voice to tell a predominantly black story.

Also, like I've said a thousand times before, a number of these efforts are a crap shoot anyway. Onah's pitch could have very well been the legit best of the bunch, but for any number of reasons beyond his control the end result missed the mark. We also have no idea who turned down the directing gig before him, if anyone. Point is, there are so many possible variables, that pointing to "diversity" as the primary culprit is utterly pointless, unless you have every last fact at your fingertips.

AggieEP said:

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Also, do you really think they didn't intentionally hire a black man to direct BNW because the lead is black? They did the same thing with hiring Coogler to run Black Panther.

Again, I'm actually pretty open minded about a lot of things that are probably considered woke, but I don't think it's crazy to think Disney is reducing the talent pool they hire from for reasons that have nothing to do with making good movies.

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I think they hired a black director not because it was a movie about a black superhero, but because it was a movie about a black superhero from a fictional African nation that they wanted to be presented in the right way with a lot of nuance to be done well. And that makes perfect sense, and Coogler proceeded to absolutely nail it with regards to Wakanda.

He was also a highly regarded up and coming director prior to BP.

Just not a very good movie in any way. I really liked Mackie as the Falcon. Don't like him as Cap. The story was extremely weak…. The villain was really boring. The highlight was seeing Gus again, but even his role was very minimal. I don't really see any impact from this one. And even the story within this movie was just flat out boring.

Big disappointment.

Best part of all of it was the Thunderbolts trailer which I had already seen. But that one does look good.

JFC, I came to talk about how this was a pretty **** movie with awful script and dialogue and TERRIBLE special effects and editing but you guys make it hard to talk about anything other than the absolutely racist bull**** that some of you have to spew. "I don't think its outlandish to say the movie is bad because they hired a black director" is a HELL of a ****ing take.

There are PLENTY of **** movies in the MCU directed by white folks that are awful. What's the excuse there? Maybe, just MAYBE, the race of the director isn't a factor in whether or not the movie turns out as a quality product? It is insane how much it breaks some of you when someone who isn't a white male gets a part or a position in these movies and you're so damn ready to look at that as the reason a movie isn't what you wanted.

AggieEP said:

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When you look at some of the MCUs recent choices for who to direct these films, I'd say it's not illogical to wonder if they are hiring the best directors they can, or if they are trying to ensure representation and opportunities for people with diverse backgrounds.

ETA, I'm not necessarily an anti woke warrior, but when you are a multi billion dollar company trying to make billion dollar movies, it shouldn't be hard to get the top directors to make your movies if you wanted them. In the post Endgame MCU, we just haven't seen them rolling out top talent IMO and seem to have been taking chances with relatively inexperienced directors to try and lead these movies.

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BTW, the best director normal director the MCU has seen? Easily the black guy they got for the black film and IMO it's not even close. The Russos have made the best MCU products but Cooglar is the only one that has made good blockbusters away from comic book movies.

You should re-read my post and the posts that came before it. TCTTS suggested hiring decisions for directors were based on best product with the lowest cost. I simply pointed out that for the movies with a black lead they seem to have intentionally hired a black director.

As mentioned Black Panther was good. Not all movies with black directors are going to be good, and not all of them are going to be bad.

My point, which I think is valid, especially considering the early reviews of BNW insinuating that the movie seems to suffer from a lack of direction/coherence/reshoots is that Disney seems to be taking huge risks with their movies by putting relatively inexperienced directors at the helm. TCTTS provided a fairly good take on the creative control point, which I buy to a certain extent, but it still seems like a risky strategy considering the important role the director can play on making sure everyone involved with the production is on the same page. Also, the idea that Disney can "control" a young black director should be concerning to us. Is he supposed to feel lucky he got a chance and then just be a yes man for Disney? Very insulting if that's the job description.

I don't know obviously if BNW would be any better with a different director, but I do know that at least on the surface it looks like finding a black man to direct a movie with a black lead was part of the decision making process. Again, if I'm in the business of making money, I hire the best person regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, because I want to make money. If Onah's pitch was the best... so be it. Then my comments are irrelevant.

Quote:

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BTW, the best director normal director the MCU has seen? Easily the black guy they got for the black film and IMO it's not even close. The Russos have made the best MCU products but Cooglar is the only one that has made good blockbusters away from comic book movies.

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You know this movie must be bad when it doesn't even have its own designated thread.

fig96 said:

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AggieEP said:

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Also, do you really think they didn't intentionally hire a black man to direct BNW because the lead is black? They did the same thing with hiring Coogler to run Black Panther.

Again, I'm actually pretty open minded about a lot of things that are probably considered woke, but I don't think it's crazy to think Disney is reducing the talent pool they hire from for reasons that have nothing to do with making good movies.

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I think they hired a black director not because it was a movie about a black superhero, but because it was a movie about a black superhero from a fictional African nation that they wanted to be presented in the right way with a lot of nuance to be done well. And that makes perfect sense, and Coogler proceeded to absolutely nail it with regards to Wakanda.

He was also a highly regarded up and coming director prior to BP.

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100% agree with this.

A day later and I think this is probably the worst MCU film to date. I know Eternals was a mess but that film at least LOOKED damn good. There's a few shots in this film with throwing the shield that are edited so bad - and this is not hyperbole - that they reminded me of a youtube video with no budget.

Whatever magic the MCU had I think its long gone. What the hiatus made me realize is just how awful some of these movies look. The volume has not done them any favors, honestly. I don't expect these movies to completely die out, but they probably should at this point.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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Forever, I'm the only one who enjoyed the Eternals.

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There were parts of it i enjoyed, but other parts that were either dumb or boring. So there's that