"They'd have to announce the movies first before saying they're on hold."

redline248 said:

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Which wouldn't look like deus ex machina at all

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I completely agree, but I don't think it matters too much anymore. The internal logic of this trilogy is broken, so I'm just hoping the last one is at least fun. I've moved my emotional investment to the next trilogies.

Render said:

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redline248 said:

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Which wouldn't look like deus ex machina at all

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I completely agree, but I don't think it matters too much anymore. The internal logic of this trilogy is broken, so I'm just hoping the last one is at least fun. I've moved my emotional investment to the next trilogies.

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why would you think the logic of the next 3 would be any better?

I quit my ****ting on these movies in this thread a while back, but one need look no further to the "Art of" books for each movie, which detail the development and story process for these movies. It is depressing how sloppy and thrown together most of the story elements are, where devices drive plot and not the other way around. More importantly, key story points are decided on only at the last minute.

They should have had a singular story vision for these movies, allowing the directors to only be creative in the presentation.

Oddly Empire earned significantly less than SW... like almost 1/3 less.

so it could be Empire great and not do as well as TFA for sure.

TCTTS said:

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I think any sort of drop off in revenue from TLJ gets Kennedy fired. I think one big change you will see regardless is Disney will require a director/ producer to sign on for the entire trilogy. I think allowing Johnson to come in and change everything for one movie really screwed the trilogy. I'd be surprised if at the end of everything it all has a cohesive feel. I think it will likely just feel like three movies rather than a trilogy. They need to have someone who can oversee the entire story arc.

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Yeah, I agree that if there's a relatively significant drop off with IX, that's when Kennedy is canned. No way it's before.

And I'm not defending Johnson at all - you're right that his ignoring/changing so much was a big issue - but I'd argue that Abrams didn't tee everything up nearly as well as he could have. I like Finn and I like his character in TFA, but he kind of had no where to go at the end of that movie. There was really nothing at all compelling for him left dangling in any way. IMO, he and Poe should have been the same character - a character that starts out as a pilot for The First Order but ultimately pilots for the Resistance by the climax. That, and The First Order should have "won" at the end of TFA. Or, rather, the Resistance should have at least been forced to retreat, not only leaving "Pinn" (Poe/Finn) with unfinished business, but a more dire situation for the Resistance in general where it makes more sense to seek out Luke for help. As is, with Starkiller base destroyed, and a seemingly tiny contingent of The First Order left and on the run, that whole beat feels off with Rey/The Resistance in desperate need of Luke at the very end. Besides, TLJ opens with that basic angle anyway - The First Order attacking a retreating Resistance - rendering the end of TFA completely moot. But in that case, I think Johnson was simply and quickly taking it to a place where the story should have already been. And with Finn, yes, the whole team up with Rose was terrible, but I honestly don't know what else Johnson could have done. Any story he gave Finn would have felt tacked on, because Finn's arc was basically already complete a third of the way into TFA. Which goes back to my point of Finn and Poe needing to be the same character, and then giving "Pinn" something else entirely to do in TLJ outside of that whole Holdo fiasco, which should have been handled differently as well. Anyway, enough fanfic, but my point is, Abrams kind of left Johnson in a sh*tty position to being with. Johnson definitely shouldn't have taken it where he did, but I also can't blame him fully.

All that said, you realize that Johnson is the person overseeing the next trilogy, right? They're doing what you're rightly suggesting, it's just with the guy who certain fans aren't happy with. I'm not super pumped on him shepherding the next trilogy either, but at the same time, I'm willing give to give him another chance with a completely blank slate. Not having to adhere/ignore already-established plot lines could definitely free up Johnson to deliver the greatness I know he's capable of.

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Take out Rose, send Finn and Poe on similar quest that Finn and Rose went on, since l, you know,Finn and Poe were a huge highlight in first movie and fans liked tha.

During quest they decide to free the SLAVE KIDS instead of the freaking horse aliens. Several of the kids are force sensitive
Broom boy is super force sensitive. Now you have Rey's first Jedi Padawans and am interesting character you can develop in next movie.

Took thirty seconds of thought to come up with better script than Johnson.

redline248 said:

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TCTTS said:

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If it did happen, it would be a better story, no doubt in my mind. The quality of effects and stuff would probably suck, but still.

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Dudes movie is going to be a literal case study in future film making classes on how to kill a golden goose and he is still being an insufferable ***** about it.

Those "fans" are being insufferable and have absolutely no clue what they're doing. They deserve ALL the mocking they've been receiving today. From Rian and everyone else.

TCTTS said:

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Those "fans" are being insufferable and have absolutely no clue what they're doing. They deserve ALL the mocking they've been receiving today. From Rian and everyone else.

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I just don't see it the way you do. You seem to think Star Wars is Rian Johnson's and Lucasfilm, I see it as the fans, as it isn't anything without them. And whether intentional or not, Johnson made decisions that were perceived by a lot of the hardcore fans as very disrespectful to the fans and the franchise as a whole. A lot of these people spent a lot of time and money on this franchise.

Honestly, this stuff reminds me of a lot of coaching debates when a coach is on his way out. Usually I am in your position of constantly defending the staff and thinking others are out of line in what they say or post. A lot of that is because to use to coach football and o am sympathetic to some of the challenges coaches face. I feel like that is you when it comes to Kennedy and Johnson.

bangobango said:

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TCTTS said:

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Those "fans" are being insufferable and have absolutely no clue what they're doing. They deserve ALL the mocking they've been receiving today. From Rian and everyone else.

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I just don't see it the way you do. You seem to think Star Wars is Rian Johnson's and Lucasfilm, I see it as the fans, as it isn't anything without them. And whether intentional or not, Johnson made decisions that were perceived by a lot of the hardcore fans as very disrespectful to the fans and the franchise as a whole. A lot of these people spent a lot of time and money on this franchise.

Honestly, this stuff reminds me of a lot of coaching debates when a coach is on his way out. Usually I am in your position of constantly defending the staff and thinking others are out of line in what they say or post. A lot of that is because to use to coach football and o am sympathetic to some of the challenges coaches face. I feel like that is you when it comes to Kennedy and Johnson.

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I'm not defending the "staff," though. I've said countless times on here how disappointed I am in what Johnson did. And yes, the franchise does belong to the fans in a way, but this group, in particular, is being ASININE. They're taking their "love" and entitlement WAY too far. That, and again, they literally have no idea what they're doing. In no way, shape, or form can they legally "remake" TLJ. Nor can these so-called producers they have on the hook fund it, same goes for the moneyless (?) "pledges" they're taking from backers. They especially can't somehow convince Disney to remake it either. None of it makes any sense, all of their actions show a vast lack of knowledge in how basic movie-making works, and they're making absolute fools of themselves all over the internet. I haven't seen a singe sane individual side with them.

By "fans", I don't think TC means your regular SW fan. He means the people who go and make a "Remake TLJ" Twitter account, bully TLJ actors, sign petitions, etc. Your average SW won't do that, because he has a job, family, life, etc. Instead, regular fans make their opinion known in other ways, such as not seeing SW movies (i.e. Solo's performance).

And I realize regular fans can be hardcore passionate about SW- they probably played KOTOR, Dark Forces, Outcast, Galactic Battlegrounds, etc. I'm in the same boat. But the fans he talks about go to a different level. Like Inception.

I mean, this truly sounds insane...

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Yes, disgruntled and out-of-their-minds Star Wars fans are pledging to straight-up remake The Last Jedi in their own image. They're taking "pledges" from fans (that don't require money to change hands; just a pledge) for this endeavour, which they assure already has the budget to get made anyway. They plan to keep the late Carrie Fisher in the film, somehow, and ensure that Luke Skywalker isn't the galaxy-saving wimp he is in the existing movie. Furthermore, they promise to write the screenplay with input from fans worldwide, in the most collaborative writing project since the naming of Boaty McBoatFace.

We could run a story about the prohibitive difficulty of raising the massive amounts of money and talent required to make such a film. We could run something about how it's laughable to think Disney would ever be on board with it. How no visual effects house in the world would take on the job, or how no members of the cast would return. How writing by committee is approximately the worst way to put together a screenplay. How plenty of people, you know, liked The Last Jedi as it was - enough to earn it over $1.3 billion worldwide and inspire many about its vision and philosophy. Or even about how this whole plan is yet another desperate and pathetic result of entitled, often misogynistic fans believing only they know what's right for a fictional universe.

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... and THAT is what Rian Johnson is mocking, as he should...

I laugh at Rian joking about this stuff, but I include him when I say it's strange that Lucasfilm is so openly antagonistic to its fans. What good comes from it?

Or don't have a public social media presence.

Being a ****, even to crazy people, will eventually drive even the best fans away. Being an ******* to fans is a game developer past time and it really never ends up well for the developer.

Also, going back a page or two, I think the previous movie drives anticipation and sales on these things a lot more than any trailers.

TLJ made a LOT of money on the good Will and anticipation created on TFA. It also benefited from ridiculous movie reviews that on hindsight I believe can only be attributable to either a massive "follow the herd" mentality among movie reviewers, a wish to kiss up to the Disney Behemoth, a complete and total disconnect between movie reviewers and the actual movie going public, or some combination of all three.

TLJ made very little money on its own merits, in my opinion, and I think the true push back on that isnt going to be felt until episode IX flops on opening weekend similar to what just happened to Solo.

Y'all think Solo was a movie nobody wanted. There are very few people who care about any of the charcacters in episode IX.

Render said:

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Agreed. That, I can't explain. They should take care to be more nuanced, instead they go scorched earth against everybody.

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It's pretty easy to understand when you realize Disney is pulling out all the stops for star Wars not to become the DCEU.

A lot of people made money criticizing the DCEU and that really caught on. Disney is terrified the same will happen with star Wars, so they're spending a lot of time characterizing anybody who criticizes it as racist, misogynist, or some type of all right fringe group in order to deny credibility to that criticism.

Take that quote TCCTS had a few post above. There is nothing I have seen to indicate the group trying to reahoot TLJ is misogynist, yet they throw that in at the end.

I hate political comparisons on these kind of threads, but it really is similar to what media and Democrats do with Trump supporters (of which I am not).

It sounds like we're on the same page overall, and I appreciate the cordial discussion. But I really don't understand this all-in it or all-out attitude everyone is seemingly demanding, re: Johnson. Did he sh*t the bed with TLJ? Yes. But he made three pretty great movies before that in Brick, The Brothers Bloom, and Looper. The guy IS a talented filmmaker. He's just a talented filmmaker who happened to overreach on TLJ. In other words, it's perfectly acceptable to be upset with him for TLJ but also know that he's talented enough, under the right conditions, to potentially make a great SW trilogy with a clean slate.

TCTTS said:

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It sounds like we're on the same page overall, and I appreciate the cordial discussion. But I really don't understand this all-in it or all-out attitude everyone is seemingly demanding, re: Johnson. Did he sh*t the bed with TLJ? Yes. But he made three pretty great movies before that in Brick, The Brothers Bloom, and Looper. The guy IS a talented filmmaker. He's just a talented filmmaker who happened to overreach on TLJ. In other words, it's perfectly acceptable to be upset with him for TLJ but also know that he's talented enough, under the right conditions, to potentially make a great SW trilogy with a clean slate.

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His response to criticism has turned me completely off the guy. If he had displayed an ounce of humility or self-reflection, then I'd probably not have such a strong disdain for him.

Defending absolutely terrible decisions by attacking your fanbase's character and intelligence take a special kind of narcissistic ahole.

A "legit" producer wouldn't go near this thing. Associating themselves with this would literally mean they are the exact opposite of legit. And if someone legit were somehow were associated with it, and that became public news, I assure you, they'd never make another movie again.