I think they were well done and somewhat interesting. But I'm not sure they accomplished much other than to humanize Kylo, whom I don't think needed to be humanized and is beyond redemption for most. I would much rather have used that time getting to know Rey better.CJS4715 said:Belton Ag said:
Instead she spent the entire time talking to Kylo through some contrived mind bridging, which ultimately led nowhere and had no real impact on the story.
See, this is where I see the most disagreement on the film. I thought the scenes between Rey and Kylo were the best part of The Last Jedi. To me it is interesting that both seemingly need one another for validation, but only one is willing to walk away from it.
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This reminds me of Kingdom of Heaven, with Orlando Bloom. Certainly, Christians and Muslims believed similarly, but that doesn't make it so.CJS4715 said:Flashdiaz said:
What's the point in training if the force is just going to cheat code someone to get the force balanced? What happens if Rye joined Kylo, the broom kid gets super mega jedi upgrade?
Well, we can explain it all away, thanks to Magic Stick Man.
In this case, one would have to believe that the Force willed the Jedi to get obliterated and the Empire take power. Which is why I have a huge issue with the idea that the force acts as an omnipotent entity that pushes pieces around like pawns. Which, again, comes back to continuity within Star Wars from movie to movie.
Kylo is a sith? I don't think he is.Ulrich said:
The worst example is when Kylo tries to read her mind and she instantly reverse engineers the technique and reads his instead. Ok, let's say that you can defeat a Sith in physical combat because he's injured and you've got some skill with a bowstaff. What exactly in a desert scavenger's experience prepares you to read minds?
I'm still somewhat hopeful that Abrams will provide an explanation that she is unlocking skills she already had learned.
He's not.
The last jedi sucked.
Somebody crack some eggs, we got us a sizzlin' hot take up in here.mntamu23 said:
The last jedi sucked.
Belton Ag said:Somebody crack some eggs, we got us a sizzlin' hot take up in here.mntamu23 said:
The last jedi sucked.
I laughed
Belton Ag said:
But I'm not sure they accomplished much other than to humanize Kylo, whom I don't think needed to be humanized and is beyond redemption for most. I would much rather have used that time getting to know Rey better.
So, I'm not sure that I agree, but I've tried to respond twice and can't coherently put together my argument. I'm not sure if that says more about me or the film. I'll think on it a bit more.
I believe in ya.CJS4715 said:Belton Ag said:
But I'm not sure they accomplished much other than to humanize Kylo, whom I don't think needed to be humanized and is beyond redemption for most. I would much rather have used that time getting to know Rey better.
So, I'm not sure that I agree, but I've tried to respond twice and can't coherently put together my argument. I'm not sure if that says more about me or the film. I'll think on it a bit more.
I am going to keep this short, but I'm just debating the point that the force talk scenes did nothing for Rey's character. Defending TLJ as a whole is difficult, but I did enjoy the Rey / Kylo sequences. The challenge is that these two characters needed to develop a relationship (not romantic) somehow without trying to kill each other. While backstory on Rey would be interesting, I liked the decision to focus on her emotions and motives.
At the start of the film, Rey believes (like much of SW fandom) that Luke Skywalker is the last hope for the galaxy. She looks to Luke for answers about her purpose, the force, her past, etc. When she first force chats with Kylo, she is still angry at him. As the scenes progress and Luke's unwillingness sinks in, she begins to latch to Kylo. Rey is desperate for answers and for a hero, but she is unable to process that she is the hope that the resistance needs. So, she runs to Kylo thinking her part in this story is redeem him, mirroring Luke's approach with Vader.
Kylo is on the opposite end of the spectrum. He wants power and control, but he also desperately needs validation from others. Rey provides that. Kylo delivers a message that greatly resonates (tempts) Rey, that she is important to him and the past should be forgotten. It seems effective, but she realizes it is not the correct path, and at that point, their paths completely diverge. By the end of the film, Rey closes herself off from Kylo for good, and Leia delivers the key lesson to Rey that the resistance has what it needs.
So, I guess to me, these scenes are what propel Rey forward. They get us to the point where she finally accepts that she is the hope for the galaxy.
At the start of the film, Rey believes (like much of SW fandom) that Luke Skywalker is the last hope for the galaxy. She looks to Luke for answers about her purpose, the force, her past, etc. When she first force chats with Kylo, she is still angry at him. As the scenes progress and Luke's unwillingness sinks in, she begins to latch to Kylo. Rey is desperate for answers and for a hero, but she is unable to process that she is the hope that the resistance needs. So, she runs to Kylo thinking her part in this story is redeem him, mirroring Luke's approach with Vader.
Kylo is on the opposite end of the spectrum. He wants power and control, but he also desperately needs validation from others. Rey provides that. Kylo delivers a message that greatly resonates (tempts) Rey, that she is important to him and the past should be forgotten. It seems effective, but she realizes it is not the correct path, and at that point, their paths completely diverge. By the end of the film, Rey closes herself off from Kylo for good, and Leia delivers the key lesson to Rey that the resistance has what it needs.
So, I guess to me, these scenes are what propel Rey forward. They get us to the point where she finally accepts that she is the hope for the galaxy.
CJS4715 said:
I am going to keep this short, but I'm just debating the point that the force talk scenes did nothing for Rey's character. Defending TLJ as a whole is difficult, but I did enjoy the Rey / Kylo sequences. The challenge is that these two characters needed to develop a relationship (not romantic) somehow without trying to kill each other. While backstory on Rey would be interesting, I liked the decision to focus on her emotions and motives.
At the start of the film, Rey believes (like much of SW fandom) that Luke Skywalker is the last hope for the galaxy. She looks to Luke for answers about her purpose, the force, her past, etc. When she first force chats with Kylo, she is still angry at him. As the scenes progress and Luke's unwillingness sinks in, she begins to latch to Kylo. Rey is desperate for answers and for a hero, but she is unable to process that she is the hope that the resistance needs. So, she runs to Kylo thinking her part in this story is redeem him, mirroring Luke's approach with Vader.
Kylo is on the opposite end of the spectrum. He wants power and control, but he also desperately needs validation from others. Rey provides that. Kylo delivers a message that greatly resonates (tempts) Rey, that she is important to him and the past should be forgotten. It seems effective, but she realizes it is not the correct path, and at that point, their paths completely diverge. By the end of the film, Rey closes herself off from Kylo for good, and Leia delivers the key lesson to Rey that the resistance has what it needs.
So, I guess to me, these scenes are what propel Rey forward. They get us to the point where she finally accepts that she is the hope for the galaxy.
This the most compelling argument I have heard in defense of TLJ.
My two counter points are 1. this really speaks to the narrative failure in 7 and 8 that this was the best way to unfold this plot device. 2. I think We needed more Luke/Kylo/Rey
Except the movie spends a lot of time telling us the hubris of the Jedi thinking they were the "saviors" is what doomed them and Luke, plus showing us how somebody acting as a hero on their own (Poe & Finn) endangers the group and/or is bad.
Of course, Rose stops Finn from killing himself to save the rebellion and delivers the apparent moral of the film, that we fight for what we love or whatever, right after Holdo kills herself saving the rebellion and right before Luke kills himself to save the rebellion.
I think it's hard to say there are any true themes in this movie that aren't contradicted in the very same movie. It is a sloppy mess.
Of course, Rose stops Finn from killing himself to save the rebellion and delivers the apparent moral of the film, that we fight for what we love or whatever, right after Holdo kills herself saving the rebellion and right before Luke kills himself to save the rebellion.
I think it's hard to say there are any true themes in this movie that aren't contradicted in the very same movie. It is a sloppy mess.
VERY good points.
This is why I greatly limited the scope of my argument. The movie as a whole falls to shambles with contradictions.
But her main motive the whole time leading up to this was trying to find out who she was and what her lineage was. These scenes are fine on their own but Johnson used them to switch gears on us and ignore the mystery about Rey set up in TFA. It became all about her coming from "nothing", which fit in line with Johnson's theme of "you can be a nobody and still be special" which was hammered home at the end with the stable boy using the force to pick up the broom and then stare at the stars.CJS4715 said:
I am going to keep this short, but I'm just debating the point that the force talk scenes did nothing for Rey's character. Defending TLJ as a whole is difficult, but I did enjoy the Rey / Kylo sequences. The challenge is that these two characters needed to develop a relationship (not romantic) somehow without trying to kill each other. While backstory on Rey would be interesting, I liked the decision to focus on her emotions and motives.
Yes, and she fell right into Snoke's trap. All the more frustrating for me because had Luke not been the way he was, had he been more attentive to Rey, that never would have happened. And goes back to my previous posts about Johnson's treatment of Luke.Quote:
At the start of the film, Rey believes (like much of SW fandom) that Luke Skywalker is the last hope for the galaxy. She looks to Luke for answers about her purpose, the force, her past, etc. When she first force chats with Kylo, she is still angry at him. As the scenes progress and Luke's unwillingness sinks in, she begins to latch to Kylo. Rey is desperate for answers and for a hero, but she is unable to process that she is the hope that the resistance needs. So, she runs to Kylo thinking her part in this story is redeem him, mirroring Luke's approach with Vader.
You're correct. This is where the scenes impact Kylo such that he decides to kill Snoke.Quote:
Kylo is on the opposite end of the spectrum. He wants power and control, but he also desperately needs validation from others. Rey provides that. Kylo delivers a message that greatly resonates (tempts) Rey, that she is important to him and the past should be forgotten. It seems effective, but she realizes it is not the correct path, and at that point, their paths completely diverge. By the end of the film, Rey closes herself off from Kylo for good, and Leia delivers the key lesson to Rey that the resistance has what it needs.
I really don't disagree that the scenes accomplished what Johnson wanted them to accomplish. I was wrong in saying they didn't play a role in the plot. I guess my problem is that they even exist in the first place.Quote:
So, I guess to me, these scenes are what propel Rey forward. They get us to the point where she finally accepts that she is the hope for the galaxy.
This likely means no Star Wars movie in 2020, which is pretty shocking, with Rian Johnson's trilogy potentially releasing in 2021.
Part of me can't believe this news, but ultimately, yeah, this development of course makes perfect sense in light of Solo's failure.
I could not care less about not getting a Boba Fett movie, but man, no Obi-Wan movie really sucks.
Part of me can't believe this news, but ultimately, yeah, this development of course makes perfect sense in light of Solo's failure.
I could not care less about not getting a Boba Fett movie, but man, no Obi-Wan movie really sucks.
******* it, you stupid nerds broke it.
same thing that made Lucas bail on making any more. Ridiculous.
grrrrr.
grrrrr.
No Star Wars movie in 2020 means Avatar 2 now has Christmas all to itself that year. Someone was always going to have to move, but now we're going to have a legit showdown in 2021, after each franchise will have claimed/showed success on that date. And I'm afraid SW will be the one who has to find a new date at that point.
This also goes back to what I originally thought / mentioned was probably going to happen anyway, with Johnson's trilogy in 2021, Benioff & Weiss' series/trilogy in 2022, and then just alternate years between those two iterations for the next four years after, through 2026. I just assumed Kenobi would be the last of the "Star Wars Stories" until after 2026.
This.TCTTS said:
I could not care less about not getting a Boba Fett movie, but man, no Obi-Wan movie really sucks.
TCTTS said:
This likely means no Star Wars movie in 2020, which is pretty shocking, with Rian Johnson's trilogy potentially/likely releasing in 2021.
Part of me can't believe this news, but ultimately, yeah, this development of course makes perfect sense in light of Solo's failure.
I could not care less about not getting a Boba Fett movie, but man, no Obi-Wan movie really sucks.
I bet Kenobi happens eventually, but I think they're in a bit of a spot given the less than stellar reception to TLJ and the under performance of Solo.
I like this news. The only way I think an Obi-Wan movie would've been worthwhile is if it was Lawerence of Arabia in space. And I doubt that's what it would have been. Hopefully this means Disney is slowing down, and checking story quality before green-lighting stuff.
NVM it was 2020
they're just going to wait for Ewan to age naturally a bit more before filming Obi Wan
I'll go with that.
They're going to write the Lawrence of Arabia version for the next year, then have Ewan come on stage at Celebration to make the announcement.
They're going to write the Lawrence of Arabia version for the next year, then have Ewan come on stage at Celebration to make the announcement.
FIFYBrian Earl Spilner said:
******* it, Disney broke it.
Zombie Jon Snow said:
same thing that made Lucas bail on making any more. Ridiculous.
grrrrr.
I highly recommend watching the Star Wars Episode of The Toys that made Us on Netflix.
It advances the argument that 1-3 were only greenlighted after Lucas recovered the merchandising rights from the Kenner deal. And could get more from Hasbro.
Then by Episdoe 3 Star Wars was no longer moving merchandise.
I wonder how much of this news is about merchandizing?
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