Star Wars Discussion Thread

3,137,996 Views | 30169 Replies | Last: 9 hrs ago by Rex Racer
Sex Panther
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TCTTS said:

I've always disliked TLJ from the very first sequence, the very first time I saw it in theaters, but I've gone back and forth so many times as to what about it was smart, what wasn't, what worked, what didn't, etc. I've tried and tried to give certain aspects of it the benefit of the doubt, despite the fact that it's never worked as a whole, but this video finally sent me over the edge.

I officially hate The Last Jedi.




TCTTS
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zgood10
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Been waiting for the Plinkett review for months
Ag Since 83
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Can't wait to watch that later
Fenrir
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The Spaceballs comparison with respect to Domhnall Gleeson is spot on.
CJS4715
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Yea, that was a good ANALysis. I've never been so back and forth on a movie than I have TLJ. Here is what I know, it's rarely watched in my house. I'm ready for Solo to hit, because I think the kids will be watching that one a lot more.
John Matrix
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TCTTS said:



This is so, so good.

I've always disliked TLJ from the very first sequence, the very first time I saw it in theaters, but I've gone back and forth so many times as to what about it was smart, what wasn't, what worked, what didn't, etc. I've tried and tried to give certain aspects of it the benefit of the doubt, despite the fact that it's never worked as a whole, but this video finally sent me over the edge.

I officially hate The Last Jedi.

Not only that, but I can no longer be the Rian Johnson defender I once was. In a town full of assh*les, I put too much weight on the fact that he's an incredibly nice guy, and I let that cloud my judgement in terms of what he did to this movie. But this video finally opened my eyes as to just how boneheaded and pandering (not to SW fans, but certain nonsensical liberal sensibilities) he really was. I've always known this, on a certain level, but wrongfully assumed that his intentions were good natured and well meaning at their core. That's not to say I now believe his intentions were nefarious liberal propaganda or anything like that. No, now I just think his intensions were idiotic. Plain and simple.

This movie is so incredibly dumb. With maybe a couple minor flashes of brilliance here and there.

I'm not going to go as far as to b*tch and moan about Johnson ruining Star Wars, my childhood, etc - I'm a grown ass man who has more important sh*t to worry about at this point in my life - but man, The Last Jedi truly is a terrible movie, one that, for me, has extinguished all hope for the future of the franchise, save for whatever Benioff & Weiss are cooking up, and hopefully the TV show.

I'll of course continue to be curious about Episode IX, and have some faith that Abrams will end it on a fun note, if not a high one, but man, more than anything I'm just in "let's get it over with" mode when it comes to this trilogy.
I think I liked it a lot more than you did, but you hit on a point here that has bugged me since I saw it: the up and down nature of this film. There are things about this movie that I legit love. Anything that deals with Luke is aces in my opinion. I got chills when he faded away into the sun. I loved his interaction with Rey. I think because I love how they handle Luke so well, I tend to overlook the truly dumb stuff that occurs in the other plot threads. This just highlighted why that opening sequence in particular felt so off and why Canto Bright is such a brake-squealing momentum stopper in terms of plot. Again, I tend to think of The Last Jedi as an incredibly interesting mixed bag than a classic or a childhood-raping zit upon humanity that some on here and other places believe.
Saul Goodman
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Similar to my thoughts. I love everything he did with Luke and Kylo, and the cool way he added to the mystery of the Force. But I acknowledge how bad the Finn/Rose storyline is, and that the movie just feels too long.
jabberwalkie09
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Saul Goodman said:

Similar to my thoughts. I love everything he did with Luke and Kylo, and the cool way he added to the mystery of the Force. But I acknowledge how bad the Finn/Rose storyline is, and that the movie just feels too long.

I haven't had a chance to watch the video, but I think that many people would agree that the better parts of TLJ are ones that involve Luke, Rey, and Kylo but especially the interaction and scenes with Luke and Kylo. Everything with the rest of the Resistance feels like an after thought that wasn't done well at all. Hell, even Yoda was good imo.
CJS4715
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Kylo is far and away the most interesting character in this series. Heading into IX, he's the only character I semi care about.
Fenrir
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And unfortunately, the non Luke, Kylo & Rey parts of the movie are not a small percentage of the whole.
jabberwalkie09
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I'm no movie expert, but having a large cast doesn't help imo. There's just not enough time to introduce and develop new characters. Like was mentioned, I really only care about Kylo. And at this point I kind if hope he burns this ****er down to the foundation.
CJS4715
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Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to.
Fenrir
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It doesn't help but a good director can manage it (see Infinity War which has a larger main cast by a wide margin). In the end it's all the logic inconsistencies that sinks this movie. Whether people consciously realize them all or not, something just doesn't feel right. Add in the slapstick comedy of the Finn portion of the movie and you have an illogical mess that goes back and forth from original trilogy level drama to prequel trilogy level fart jokes. It's a mess of a movie that doesn't have any tonal or logical consistency.

And it's a shame because I actually don't have a problem with what they did with Luke. A passing of the torch could have been incredibly meaningful in this movie if done right. It's just that nothing seems to be thought out with respect to other events within this movie or TFA (an entire New Order planet is blown up but the Resistance is somehow the one on the run now? How?). It's like everything was done just for ****s and grins because they thought it looked or sounded funny/cool. All of that mess makes the Rey, Luke & Kylo arc of the movie just feel bleh.

Subverting expectations was more important than making a consistent ****ing movie I guess.

I hope JJ is able to right the ship to some degree but he has a lot on his plate. At least I'm confident he can make the movie fun.
Farmer1906
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Fenrir said:

It doesn't help but a good director can manage it (see Infinity War which has a larger main cast by a wide margin). In the end it's all the logic inconsistencies that sinks this movie.
To be fair, IW managed all of them because they have about 20 previous movies to develop them all.
redline248
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If it sounds like a snake, it's a mistake
Fenrir
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How many characters in TLJ really needed extra development? 4? 5? That's not an outrageous number. Good movies do it regularly.
TCTTS
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Fenrir said:

Subverting expectations was more important than making a consistent ****ing movie I guess.

This is what the video really nailed for me. Johnson seemingly never stopped to ask WHY he wanted to "subvert expectations." It sounds cool, I guess, but really, what was the point? I totally get wanting to do something different or unexpected, but the responsibility that comes with that is that your changes have to be insanely smart and warranted. Rather, I'd almost go so far as to say that subverting expectations should never be the goal. Subverted expectations should be the BY PRODUCT of an angle or an idea that you came up with that is just too good not to use. Subverted expectations should then come organically from that. Instead, Johnson basically started from a point of saying "I want to subvert expectations" and then reverse engineered the story around that empty desire because... it sounds like a cool thing to do? Who knows.

What's funny is that the end result didn't really look or feel all that different from TFA. TLJ came across as the most boring possible follow-up in a lot of ways. I remember reading a tweet when the first TLJ trailer dropped where someone said that it looked like TLJ had been made from TFA deleted scenes. I of course blew that off in the moment, but it rings so true now. When all was said and done, the "subverted expectations" resulted in the antithesis of progress, both in story and in look and tone.

Echoing the post I had a couple weeks ago where I talked about TLJ basically being an exercise in stagnation, it all makes even more sense now. Because what we inherently expected was for things to happen. And what Johnson doesn't seem to understand is that what fans want on the most primal level isn't just for Rey to be related to Han or whoever, or for Luke to take on an army all by himself, it's that those desires, as misguided as they might have been, inherently meant progress. They meant an advancement of plot. But with Johnson choosing to put "subverted expectations" above all else, he instead subverted forward movement.

As Plinkett so expertly pointed out...

- Empire gave us a wise Jedi leader teaching our hero valuable lessons. / TLJ gave us a disgruntled "Jedi leader" teaching our hero lessons of nothingness.

- Empire gave us an epic Luke/Vader duel. / TLJ gave us a fake, literally hallow duel.

- Empire gave us "Luke, I am your father!" / TLJ gave us "You're a nobody."

... and so on. Again, I get not wanting to be a carbon copy of Empire, and I applaud the efforts to purposefully veer away from that. But somehow still sticking with Empire's basic format, and just doing the opposite of what it did, wasn't even close to the right move either. It's why we got the limp-d*ck of a movie we got. Empire was PROGRESS in every sense of the word. And because, at its core, TLJ was the "subverted exception" of that progress, we're in the situation we are now.

At the very least, I know when we see Abrams' first trailer for Episode IX, there's going to be that sense of "Wow, what is that?!" "Who is that guy?!" "Where are they?!" As good as TLJ looked in the trailers, I never really got that sense of "Whoa, I didn't expect that." It all looked the same, felt the same, and none of the new locations looked all that different or interesting, which is such a weird result for something that was trying so hard to "subvert expectations." Which goes back to my original point. That's where TRYING to subvert expectations will get you. Just a make a movie that oozes ADVENTURE and PROGRESS, both in terms of story and character, and no matter how unexpected it all is, we'll go along for the ride. If your (potentially brilliant) plan for the story happens to "subvert expectations," great. But if not, who cares? I don't watch movies to have my expectations subverted. Many times I WANT the premise to deliver on my expectations, just in a WAY I hadn't considered before. It's a fine line, but there's a difference.
redline248
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Finally finished that full video. Man, F Rian Johnson.

CJS4715
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redline248 said:

Finally finished that full video. Man, F Rian Johnson.




I'm sure Rian will have a snarky comment on social media soon. The hope is that we can shame him so much that he will never actually start his SW trilogy.
TCTTS
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I know you're mostly joking, but this where it gets creepy for me. Complain on a message board, write analysis of why something didn't work, etc., but when we dislike something, we can't get in this mode of actually hitting these people up and telling them they suck to their "face" or shaming them off social media or jobs or whatever. Having their work critiqued publicly should no doubt come with the territory, but verbally attacking them like a mob in the hopes of running them out of town just ain't right.
CJS4715
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I am completely joking, but I feel like each time a video like this hits, it just all starts over again. As of now, this video is already over 700k views.
Urban Ag
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I really appreciate your candor on the topic and being stand up enough to admit some changed perspectives.

I've voiced my opinions before about my disdain for the loser nerds man children that can't seem to muster enough emotional maturity to refrain from personally attacking the actors and wailing at the sky about Lucas and Johnson destroying their childhoods. They're pathetic. But throughout this I've absolutely felt that Johnson did in fact triple down on shamelessly pandering to certain groups and demographics. Worse, the allegations leveled at many people who were critical of the film have been horribly unfair. You can in fact dislike TLJ and not be a misogynistic ass hole. That's always bothered me.

That said, if you are cyber stalking the gal that played Rose you probably are an incel, beta, loser and deserve all the scorn in the world.
M.C. Swag
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I love how people who previously defended the cheap tricks of TLJ are now admitting to the bs nature of the ruse.

Rian and Trevorrow should never touch a blockbuster series again.
Body By Fisher
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Quote:

That said, if you are cyber stalking the gal that played Rose you probably are an incel, beta, loser and deserve all the scorn in the world.
How much stalking actually happened? I think she and RJ have thrown that up as a force field to deflect all criticism of ****ty writing and bad acting.
TCTTS
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M.C. Swag said:

I love how people who previously defended the cheap tricks of TLJ are now admitting to the bs nature of the ruse.

Rian and Trevorrow should never touch a blockbuster series again.

If you're considering me as part of that group, I never once defended the "cheap tricks" of TLJ. I disliked almost everything from the get go, save for the stuff in the throne room, but I've even soured on that as of late.
TCTTS
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It was people saying HORRIBLE things to her on social media all day every day. It was documented, there for everyone to see. How could her and RJ have "thrown that up"?
amercer
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I'm glad you are all happily united in your hatred of TLJ.

Now maybe you can shut up about it.

amercer
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That review is hilarious though.

I remember the first time I saw his phantom menace review. I laughed so hard I couldn't breathe.
PatAg
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TCTTS said:

M.C. Swag said:

I love how people who previously defended the cheap tricks of TLJ are now admitting to the bs nature of the ruse.

Rian and Trevorrow should never touch a blockbuster series again.

If you're considering me as part of that group, I never once defended the "cheap tricks" of TLJ. I disliked almost everything from the get go, save for the stuff in the throne room, but I've even soured on that as of late.
I feel like that scene just makes me angry that he was capable of creating scenes of that quality, yet still made the whole casino part.

He might, and probably still will, make other good movies. Just probably not in the star wars universe, because I dont think he "gets" it.
PatAg
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Holy ****, I just saw the part with the deleted scenes.
TCTTS
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They're unbelievably bad. I mean, they were obviously cut for a reason, but I can't even fathom coming up with those bits, much less actually going through with filming them. The one with Tom Hardy as a Stormtrooper talking like a good ol' boy was just bonkers insane.
CJS4715
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Look at this deleted scene in context of where it was going to occur - completely ruins one of the more emotional scenes in the movie.
dromo07
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I won't ever fail you...

Completely ignores him seconds laters and runs to do exactly the opposite of what he wants.

The best part was her running and still being far away and she ignites her light saber. Whats the point of that?
SpreadsheetAg
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dromo07 said:

I won't ever fail you...

Completely ignores him seconds laters and runs to do exactly the opposite of what he wants.

The best part was her running and still being far away and she ignites her light saber. Whats the point of that?
I thought this exact same thing... nobody would do that:
a) the big bright shiny thing gives away your position - if you are running into battle why alert the enemy?
b) you might hack off your leg

Every movie having to do with War or Battles or fighting ought to have a damn infantry officer (O4 or better), infantry NCO (E-7 or better), and combatives expert on the script review team, on set while filming these scenes and on the cutting team to make sure it makes sense.

The idiocy in tactics and strategy in these movies by the ignorant Hollywood producers, directors, screenwriters, etc. is so damned dumb.

(It's the same reason I LOATHED the Hurt Locker - it was as if that movie was sourced from a bunch of privates telling stories from the rumor mill; infuriating in how bad the tactics and general military procedures were in that movie)
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