Star Wars Discussion Thread

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Render
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AG
Technically, he may have been the grandson of the Force, but his story was told like that of an everyman protagonist. Came from nothing, and had to work to achieve his goal/destiny. But I get what you're saying and agree. I was more referring to the "original intent" of the OT, before Lucas retconned everything. To me, it's better to stay true to that original intent, than try to work with the prequel lore.

And Rey's character has kinda done that. But I also agree that Rey's parentage shouldn't have been built-up like it was, since it added nothing of substance to the story.
Ulrich
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Film Crit Hulk is a pretty good, and I believe well known, commentator. I'm not sure Twitter is the best forum for his typical in-depth analysis though, he's better suited for thousand+ word essays.

As far as Rey, I don't think it matters who her parents are. I'm on board with the general theme that innate ability/quality can arise anywhere, but it should still be earned, perhaps even moreso than before. Replacing "it seems to run in families but you really have to work for it" with "it's randomly distributed and very easy to master" doesn't feel like a step forward.

I thought that the middle piece of the trilogy was the natural place to show us how Rey earned her power so that the final installment had all the pieces on the board, so to speak. Hopefully Abrams makes it all make sense.
TCTTS
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Quote:

So is the gist of the second point (the one he/she calls "gross")... a character having a destiny (whether it plays out or is pre-ordained) is bad?

I mean, that is literally almost every damn movie.

granted he specifically mentions genetic destiny as being gross, which is relevant to only some movies (e.g, SW, Terminator etc.)_ but there is nothing nefarious in that concept. it is a way to limit and focus your story without having to bring in too many external events/factors/etc.

If noting noteworthy, interesting, terrifying, whatever is not to happen to the main character(s), then why make or watch a ****ing movie?

Maybe I am misreading what he wrote....

"Destiny" might be the wrong word, because I think there's a difference between "destiny" and being "the chosen one," the latter of which is more what FCH is calling "gross" (he's discussed this before, which is how I know what he's getting at). The Matrix will forever be one of my all-time favorite movies, but between it, Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc, the down side of "the chosen one" conceit is that it's essentially saying that only a certain blood line, mark, etc. can truly "win" or vanquish evil. Not me, not you, not Average Joe. That what makes us special or capable can only come from something pre-ordained.

And purely on storytelling level, honestly, it creates a kind of laziness and for a while became more of an annoying fad than anything (even though, yes, I realize it's something that's been around as long as time). I don't mean this literally, but theoretically speaking, it started to feel like a hero like John McLane could no longer be just an average cop who rose to the occasion. Instead, he had to be "chosen" as "the one" to fulfill the prophecy of Nakatomi Plaza or some bullsh*t, and I'm so glad that trope has faded over the past few years.

(And this is basically what TLJ is saying, btw - that any of us can find it within ourselves to lead the Resistance, defeat The First Order, etc. By saying Rey's parents are nobodies, it's saying that a nobody, or even broom boy, can ultimately be somebody - that we don't have to have special blood or a mark or be "chosen." Even though I do agree that this goes against certain elements hinted at/set up in TFA, which is why it's all so sloppy and frustrating.)

To me, "destiny" is a little more generic. It can be your "destiny" to be/do just about anything, and anyone/everyone can have one, in terms of storytelling/narrative. Sure, it still might come from a higher power in certain instances, but it's a little different than the whole "prophecy" thing. At least in my opinion.

Quote:

And the Twitter rampage? Cmon man, we can barely read 3 sentences of each other's writing, we're not reading 50 Tweets of some random idiot.

I wasn't aware that my posts were binding and that TexAgs was forcing you to read them. My bad.

Seriously, though... "rampage"? Nothing about that thread was even remotely close to a rampage. It was a level-headed critique of Abrams' storytelling insufficiencies, which most everyone here agrees with. He's calling out Abrams' tendency to not deliver on the whole mystery box thing, and is saying that's what got us into this whole, meaningless, "Who are Rey's parents?" issue to begin with. Because Abrams only had a question with no answer, it put impossible exceptions on Rey's story that could never deliver. Also, this was all from a highly respected story guru with 64K Twitter followers, who writes for Entertainment Weekly and Vulture on the side, while also working in the industry full time. He's certainly not "some random idiot."
TCTTS
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SeattleAgJr said:

Also welcome back Mr. Corleone. I see we managed to pull you back in.

:-)

Was planning on coming back right after the holiday, just didn't know exactly when. I saw that string of tweets and figured it'd at least make for interesting discussion, so now is as good of a time as any.
Ag Since 83
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I don't buy into this idea that "well he shouldn't have teased us about who Rey's parents might be since they were nobody. What a pointless JJ Abrams mystery box redirect." Now, I'm not an orphan fortunately, but I'm willing to buy that for an orphan like Rey, wondering about your family, searching for them, searching for meaning and belonging in the world/galaxy/universe, is definitely something her character would go through at some point. And one possible outcome is exactly what they did in VIII, learning that her past doesn't matter and that she can go forward and make a difference, and she can belong to a family or group of friends anyway? That's a pretty normal character arc for an orphan I think, so it makes complete sense in VII to be asking where she came from.


BMX Bandit
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Rey not being the offspring of some other known Star Wars person was one of the few good parts of TLJ.
AliasMan02
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For all the theories about Rey's parentage, none of them adequately explained her abandonment into the care of Plutt. I think that gets overlooked. Her being a nobody with jackhole parents is pretty much the only reasonable explanation. We we're just too caught up in her story to really consider that as an option.
Belton Ag
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AliasMan02 said:

For all the theories about Rey's parentage, none of them adequately explained her abandonment into the care of Plutt. I think that gets overlooked. Her being a nobody with jackhole parents is pretty much the only reasonable explanation. We we're just too caught up in her story to really consider that as an option.
This. I have several posts in this thread about this. In thinking about the whole mystery surrounding Rey, I could never square the fact that she was dumped off with Plutt with her being the offspring of Luke, Han or anyone else other than perhaps a villain.

Of all the problems with TLJ, this is one caused by Abrams, not Johnson. I like the idea that Rey is a new character; I liked the idea that Snoke was a new character. I didn't like the apparent red herrings that went with those new characters, and all of the "mystery" surrounding Snoke - perpetuated off screen by the filmmakers - wasn't explored at all in the subsequent film.
Social Media Influencer
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Quote:

and all of the "mystery" surrounding Snoke - perpetuated off screen by the filmmakers - wasn't explored at all in the subsequent film.
Yeah, like how he lost his horns and red face tattoos.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Quote:

Hard to say we haven't been to old planets when we've been to a snow planet that looked just like Hoth and a hot planet that looked just like Tatooine.


Not hard to say the truth.
MuckRaker96
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by rampage i meant you dropped 10 tweets or so in a row. not the content.

I think my problem is I'm just so sick of the whining on this board - not you - just generally speaking. i've gotten bitter since i wrecked. sorry to take it out on you.

Athanasius
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https://variety.com/2018/film/news/jar-jar-binks-ahmed-best-star-wars-suicide-struggle-1202867677/

Sad, but the actor who played Jar-Jar struggles with suicide and a harmed career. I did not know this.
Saul Goodman
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Keep posting that kind of stuff, TC - I really enjoy it.
FL_Ag1998
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Belton Ag said:

AliasMan02 said:

For all the theories about Rey's parentage, none of them adequately explained her abandonment into the care of Plutt. I think that gets overlooked. Her being a nobody with jackhole parents is pretty much the only reasonable explanation. We we're just too caught up in her story to really consider that as an option.
This. I have several posts in this thread about this. In thinking about the whole mystery surrounding Rey, I could never square the fact that she was dumped off with Plutt with her being the offspring of Luke, Han or anyone else other than perhaps a villain.

Of all the problems with TLJ, this is one caused by Abrams, not Johnson. I like the idea that Rey is a new character; I liked the idea that Snoke was a new character. I didn't like the apparent red herrings that went with those new characters, and all of the "mystery" surrounding Snoke - perpetuated off screen by the filmmakers - wasn't explored at all in the subsequent film.


Actually, this problem was caused by the horrible idea by Lucasfilm/Disney/whoever to play each movie by ear and not have **** planned out. It perfectly exemplifies what's wrong with the Star Wars universe and why the fanbase, casual and hardcore, are tearing each other apart. The real problem isn't the fans or the actors or the directors....it's the people in truly in charge of this franchise.
Belton Ag
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FL_Ag1998 said:

Belton Ag said:

AliasMan02 said:

For all the theories about Rey's parentage, none of them adequately explained her abandonment into the care of Plutt. I think that gets overlooked. Her being a nobody with jackhole parents is pretty much the only reasonable explanation. We we're just too caught up in her story to really consider that as an option.
This. I have several posts in this thread about this. In thinking about the whole mystery surrounding Rey, I could never square the fact that she was dumped off with Plutt with her being the offspring of Luke, Han or anyone else other than perhaps a villain.

Of all the problems with TLJ, this is one caused by Abrams, not Johnson. I like the idea that Rey is a new character; I liked the idea that Snoke was a new character. I didn't like the apparent red herrings that went with those new characters, and all of the "mystery" surrounding Snoke - perpetuated off screen by the filmmakers - wasn't explored at all in the subsequent film.


Actually, this problem was caused by the horrible idea by Lucasfilm/Disney/whoever to play each movie by ear and not have **** planned out. It perfectly exemplifies what's wrong with the Star Wars universe and why the fanbase, casual and hardcore, are tearing each other apart. The real problem isn't the fans or the actors or the directors....it's the people in truly in charge of this franchise.
I agree - but that's a problem with the entire story arc. The specific blame for the mystery box stuff is squarely on Abrams' shoulders (and to a lesser extent, Kasdan's).
SeattleAgJr
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Belton Ag said:


I agree - but that's a problem with the entire story arc. The specific blame for the mystery box stuff is squarely on Abrams' shoulders (and to a lesser extent, Kasdan's).
Actually, it is on Kennedy (no this is not a Kennedy bash).

She is in charge of the ship. She and her team should have had the story arc planned out in advance so that there was consistency , and the basic conflict/payoff outlined in advance.

Even with JJ's tendency to throw everything and the kitchen sink into the mix, Rian is the one that abandoned the story beats that were provided because he wanted to subvert whateverthe****hedronedonabout.

So plenty of blame to go around.

The question is whether JJ can tie it all together in any sort of satisfactory way.
Render
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FL_Ag1998 said:

Belton Ag said:

AliasMan02 said:

For all the theories about Rey's parentage, none of them adequately explained her abandonment into the care of Plutt. I think that gets overlooked. Her being a nobody with jackhole parents is pretty much the only reasonable explanation. We we're just too caught up in her story to really consider that as an option.
This. I have several posts in this thread about this. In thinking about the whole mystery surrounding Rey, I could never square the fact that she was dumped off with Plutt with her being the offspring of Luke, Han or anyone else other than perhaps a villain.

Of all the problems with TLJ, this is one caused by Abrams, not Johnson. I like the idea that Rey is a new character; I liked the idea that Snoke was a new character. I didn't like the apparent red herrings that went with those new characters, and all of the "mystery" surrounding Snoke - perpetuated off screen by the filmmakers - wasn't explored at all in the subsequent film.


Actually, this problem was caused by the horrible idea by Lucasfilm/Disney/whoever to play each movie by ear and not have **** planned out. It perfectly exemplifies what's wrong with the Star Wars universe and why the fanbase, casual and hardcore, are tearing each other apart. The real problem isn't the fans or the actors or the directors....it's the people in truly in charge of this franchise.

This. Isn't it strange that almost every attempt to replicate Marvel's cinematic universe concept has gone poorly? DC, Dark Universe, Terminator, Star Trek; I'm sure the Predator series will be getting one now, too. Poor execution seems to be the common theme among all attempts, almost like clockwork. And I guess because it's SW, people thought it wouldn't run into the problems other attempts have had.

Mavel's has worked because it has Kevin Feige. So Kevin Feige is the key to all this. We just have to kidnap him and force him to work on the SW cinematic universe. I'm sure TC knows where he lives in Hollywood...
AliasMan02
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Star Wars isn't copying the MCU model, though. It's a much different animal.
Render
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The larger point is that Marvel has been very successful at planning out stories long-term. Other franchise's have tried to do something very similar, but haven't really been able to. Hence my recommendation we kidnap Kevin Feige.
bangobango
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Render said:

The larger point is that Marvel has been very successful at planning out stories long-term. Other franchise's have tried to do something very similar, but haven't really been able to. Hence my recommendation we kidnap Kevin Feige.


Marvel has the advantage of having a rich library of stories already written and "tested" so to speak. Feige can pick and choose what stories worked and what elements from those stories worked the best.

Star Wars, for whatever reason, decided to abandon the books. In hindsight, that may have been a mistake. I've never read anything star Wars related, so I don't know how good the material actually is (although I've just started Heir to the Throne on advice from a buddy who is a lot bigger star Wars fan than me and also hated TLJ).
bangobango
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TCTTS said:


Quote:

So is the gist of the second point (the one he/she calls "gross")... a character having a destiny (whether it plays out or is pre-ordained) is bad?

I mean, that is literally almost every damn movie.

granted he specifically mentions genetic destiny as being gross, which is relevant to only some movies (e.g, SW, Terminator etc.)_ but there is nothing nefarious in that concept. it is a way to limit and focus your story without having to bring in too many external events/factors/etc.

If noting noteworthy, interesting, terrifying, whatever is not to happen to the main character(s), then why make or watch a ****ing movie?

Maybe I am misreading what he wrote....

"Destiny" might be the wrong word, because I think there's a difference between "destiny" and being "the chosen one," the latter of which is more what FCH is calling "gross" (he's discussed this before, which is how I know what he's getting at). The Matrix will forever be one of my all-time favorite movies, but between it, Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc, the down side of "the chosen one" conceit is that it's essentially saying that only a certain blood line, mark, etc. can truly "win" or vanquish evil. Not me, not you, not Average Joe. That what makes us special or capable can only come from something pre-ordained.

And purely on storytelling level, honestly, it creates a kind of laziness and for a while became more of an annoying fad than anything (even though, yes, I realize it's something that's been around as long as time). I don't mean this literally, but theoretically speaking, it started to feel like a hero like John McLane could no longer be just an average cop who rose to the occasion. Instead, he had to be "chosen" as "the one" to fulfill the prophecy of Nakatomi Plaza or some bullsh*t, and I'm so glad that trope has faded over the past few years.

(And this is basically what TLJ is saying, btw - that any of us can find it within ourselves to lead the Resistance, defeat The First Order, etc. By saying Rey's parents are nobodies, it's saying that a nobody, or even broom boy, can ultimately be somebody - that we don't have to have special blood or a mark or be "chosen." Even though I do agree that this goes against certain elements hinted at/set up in TFA, which is why it's all so sloppy and frustrating.)



I don't think anybody was disappointed she's not a Kenobi or a Skywalker in and of itself, they're disappointed there was no explanation or justification for her being so over-powered.

If they'd set it up where Rey learned about the force and then struggled to control it and had some failures and setbacks, maybe escaped some near death experiences by fortuitious events or being saved by a friend or Ally (but make sure it is not a man!) Before she eventually gains some mastery and wins some big fight on her own skill and competence, then I don't think anybody would really have any problem with her origin story (and there would be an added bonus that the theme Rian claims he was going for would actually work - anybody can be anything if they work for i).

But instead we get that you don't have to be a Skywalker to be important. You just have to get randomly bestowed with this super magical power and hope that it makes you the most magical of all magical beings and then you can win and do anything you need to do, even defeat other magical people who have trained much longer and harder than you have.

It's just another failure in writing by Johnson, similar to setting up the Jedi need to end/are bad and then revealing that the Jedi are going to be carried on and revived, because ... we'll just because.
TCTTS
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In 100% agreement.
Cinco Ranch Aggie
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Quote:

I don't think anybody was disappointed she's not a Kenobi or a Skywalker in and of itself, they're disappointed there was no explanation or justification for her being so over-powered.
After TFA, I was convinced that Rey was a descendant of Luke or Obi-Won. Part of that was due to how John Williams has scored the Star Wars movies, using his music to tell the story that we witness on screen. When she gets the lightsaber from Kylo, the music that accompanied that was virtually the same piece that accompanied the scene back on Tatooine when Luke returned to the homestead to find his aunt and uncle dead, and he sees the path his life is going to take.

I'd say that I remain convinced that Rey has a familiar familial relation, but the events of TLJ did throw a bucket of ice water on all of that. Now I am unsure what to expect with Rey and her lineage. If she is truly a no body, well, okay. I'll live with that.

The bolded part of your statement, though, corresponds to one of the biggest issues I had with TLJ. The Last Jedi opens immediately after the conclusion of TFA, correct? In TFA we see a young lady who has no idea that she has any Force abilities. Yes, she does defeat Kylo, but it's not necessarily because she overpowered him with her Jedi abilities. He was injured and seemed more interested in keeping her alive so as to have a padawan rather than just killing her. She did not end TFA as a Jedi badass as Luke was at the conclusion of Return of the Jedi. So we are to believe that in whatever short time elapses between that fight on the snow planet to the time of her arrival on Snoke's flagship, that she has amassed such Jedi powers as to walk in to that throne room to take out all those guards as she did after Kylo killed Snoke?
PatAg
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bangobango said:

Render said:

The larger point is that Marvel has been very successful at planning out stories long-term. Other franchise's have tried to do something very similar, but haven't really been able to. Hence my recommendation we kidnap Kevin Feige.


Marvel has the advantage of having a rich library of stories already written and "tested" so to speak. Feige can pick and choose what stories worked and what elements from those stories worked the best.

Star Wars, for whatever reason, decided to abandon the books. In hindsight, that may have been a mistake. I've never read anything star Wars related, so I don't know how good the material actually is (although I've just started Heir to the Throne on advice from a buddy who is a lot bigger star Wars fan than me and also hated TLJ).
Yep, they could have easily picked different parts of different books and created an amazing series of movies. Obviously, a lot of the books are just written by bad authors, but there was a lot that was high quality.
Saul Goodman
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bangobango said:




I don't think anybody was disappointed she's not a Kenobi or a Skywalker in and of itself, they're disappointed there was no explanation or justification for her being so over-powered.

If they'd set it up where Rey learned about the force and then struggled to control it and had some failures and setbacks, maybe escaped some near death experiences by fortuitious events or being saved by a friend or Ally (but make sure it is not a man!) Before she eventually gains some mastery and wins some big fight on her own skill and competence, then I don't think anybody would really have any problem with her origin story (and there would be an added bonus that the theme Rian claims he was going for would actually work - anybody can be anything if they work for i).

But instead we get that you don't have to be a Skywalker to be important. You just have to get randomly bestowed with this super magical power and hope that it makes you the most magical of all magical beings and then you can win and do anything you need to do, even defeat other magical people who have trained much longer and harder than you have.

It's just another failure in writing by Johnson, similar to setting up the Jedi need to end/are bad and then revealing that the Jedi are going to be carried on and revived, because ... we'll just because.
I see it another way. Just as Anakin was a "child" of the force, maybe that is Rey's case as well. My interpretation of it is that the force attempts to balance itself when one side, light or dark, rises disproportionately. Regardless, I think there is still a lot about Rey (and the force) we have yet to learn, which JJ will hopefully address in IX. Rey was flung around by Snoke like a rag doll, so it isn't like Rian made her this ultimate bad*** yet - she still obviously has a long way to go with her training. Part of Kylo's rage is that he isn't Darth Vader and the force obviously comes more naturally to Rey than it did him.

Regarding your last point about the Jedi needing to end...and then not. This was Luke's (erroneous) conclusion after his experience with Kylo and thinking about the Jedi failures dating back to Episode 1. Ghost Yoda comes around and tells him failure is a critical part of what a master passes down, and "we are what they grow beyond". Luke was the "A New Hope", and he comes to realize Rey is that now. Just as Kenobi and Yoda failed miserably with Anakin and the rise of Palpatine, but their legacy is ultimately defined by what they passed down to Luke, who brought down the Empire.

bangobango
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Cinco Ranch Aggie said:

Quote:

I don't think anybody was disappointed she's not a Kenobi or a Skywalker in and of itself, they're disappointed there was no explanation or justification for her being so over-powered.
After TFA, I was convinced that Rey was a descendant of Luke or Obi-Won. Part of that was due to how John Williams has scored the Star Wars movies, using his music to tell the story that we witness on screen. When she gets the lightsaber from Kylo, the music that accompanied that was virtually the same piece that accompanied the scene back on Tatooine when Luke returned to the homestead to find his aunt and uncle dead, and he sees the path his life is going to take.

I'd say that I remain convinced that Rey has a familiar familial relation, but the events of TLJ did throw a bucket of ice water on all of that. Now I am unsure what to expect with Rey and her lineage. If she is truly a no body, well, okay. I'll live with that.

The bolded part of your statement, though, corresponds to one of the biggest issues I had with TLJ. The Last Jedi opens immediately after the conclusion of TFA, correct? In TFA we see a young lady who has no idea that she has any Force abilities. Yes, she does defeat Kylo, but it's not necessarily because she overpowered him with her Jedi abilities. He was injured and seemed more interested in keeping her alive so as to have a padawan rather than just killing her. She did not end TFA as a Jedi badass as Luke was at the conclusion of Return of the Jedi. So we are to believe that in whatever short time elapses between that fight on the snow planet to the time of her arrival on Snoke's flagship, that she has amassed such Jedi powers as to walk in to that throne room to take out all those guards as she did after Kylo killed Snoke?
I believe it's around six days from the start of the TFA to the end of the TLJ.
AliasMan02
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bangobango said:

Render said:

The larger point is that Marvel has been very successful at planning out stories long-term. Other franchise's have tried to do something very similar, but haven't really been able to. Hence my recommendation we kidnap Kevin Feige.


Marvel has the advantage of having a rich library of stories already written and "tested" so to speak. Feige can pick and choose what stories worked and what elements from those stories worked the best.

Star Wars, for whatever reason, decided to abandon the books. In hindsight, that may have been a mistake. I've never read anything star Wars related, so I don't know how good the material actually is (although I've just started Heir to the Throne on advice from a buddy who is a lot bigger star Wars fan than me and also hated TLJ).
The reason Star Wars abandoned the EU was because it had zero quality control and was a mess. I know Marvel comics are also a mess, but there are a dozen different versions of things, and reboots, so while people originally were upset that we weren't getting direct adaptations of comics (like when X-Men came out), people have gotten over it.

Star Wars is a different animal because it had one supposed book canon that was in no way transferable to the big screen. If you thought TFA was a big rehash, wait until you get a few more generations of superweapons and Skywalkers falling to the Dark Side. Or resurrecting the Emperor to serve as the Big Bad. Or Chewie dying and then being effectively replaced by his son like nothing ever happened. Or no fewer than half a dozen counts of who stole the Death Star plans, including one account that included Han Solo (that were then sort of retconned to all of them stealing only portions of the plans).

In truth, the films and larger canon have dug DEEP into the EU and pulled good stuff. It's not that different than what Marvel does except Marvel's "main cast" is so much larger in the comics. The old EU books were, to their detriment, highly fixated on the characters from the OT. That's how you end up with Wedge Antilles being a General in charge of some sort of ground cleanup operation (I forget exactly what it was), and the "big three" in Luke, Leia, and Han basically ran out of things to do because they were collectively responsible for everything that happened in the whole galaxy.

The Luke that so many people wanted to see in TLJ, the Force God who was going to face off against the First Order with a laser sword, we've already seen in portions of the EU and, imo, it was SUPER boring.
Ulrich
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AliasMan02 said:

That's how you end up with Wedge Antilles being a General in charge of some sort of ground cleanup operation (I forget exactly what it was)

That was the first thing I read in the EU, I don't think I had even seen the movies yet. Still a fond memory.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Quote:

Regarding your last point about the Jedi needing to end...and then not. This was Luke's (erroneous) conclusion after his experience with Kylo and thinking about the Jedi failures dating back to Episode 1. Ghost Yoda comes around and tells him failure is a critical part of what a master passes down, and "we are what they grow beyond". Luke was the "A New Hope", and he comes to realize Rey is that now. Just as Kenobi and Yoda failed miserably with Anakin and the rise of Palpatine, but their legacy is ultimately defined by what they passed down to Luke, who brought down the Empire.


Bingo. Well said.
Render
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AG
How have the films dug deep into EU material? I haven't seen anything to indicate that.

They may have reached fatigue in the novels, but not in the films. Novels and comics have to constantly think up new stories because they're unending; eventually they'll reach fatigue, as you pointed out. But if you're kicking off a new series of films, you have it easy, because you don't have to reinvent the wheel like long-running print media does. You just adapt those home run stories that worked really well. Nolan did that with Batman. The comics may have Batman marrying Catwoman right now because they ran out of good ideas years ago, but since Nolan was doing a finite amount of movies, he simply synthesized some of the best Batman stories: The Long Halloween, Dark Victory, Son of the Demon, Knightfall, and The Dark Knight Returns. The results were tremendous.

Since the OT actors were only going to be around for 1-2 movies, Disney (like Nolan) should've just synthesized all the great EU stories: Heir to the Empire trilogy, Shadows of the Empire, Dark Empire I, and Vector Prime. After those initial 1-2 movies that kill off the old characters, insert the new characters into those stories' leading roles. Afterwards, make new stories with that initial synthesis serving as the creative catalyst. Of course, if you continue making movies for many years, eventually you'll reach fatigue, but Marvel is combating that by combining different genres with low-stakes stories: Ant-Man, Spider-Man, etc. However, if you're just starting out, make it easy for yourself - use your home run stories.
AliasMan02
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Render said:

How have the films dug deep into EU material? I haven't seen anything to indicate that.

They may have reached fatigue in the novels, but not in the films. Novels and comics have to constantly think up new stories because they're unending; eventually they'll reach fatigue, as you pointed out. But if you're kicking off a new series of films, you have it easy, because you don't have to reinvent the wheel like long-running print media does. You just adapt those home run stories that worked really well. Nolan did that with Batman. The comics may have Batman marrying Catwoman right now because they ran out of good ideas years ago, but since Nolan was doing a finite amount of movies, he simply synthesized some of the best Batman stories: The Long Halloween, Dark Victory, Son of the Demon, Knightfall, and The Dark Knight Returns. The results were tremendous.

Since the OT actors were only going to be around for 1-2 movies, Disney (like Nolan) should've just synthesized all the great EU stories: Heir to the Empire trilogy, Shadows of the Empire, Dark Empire I, and Vector Prime. After those initial 1-2 movies that kill off the old characters, insert the new characters into those stories' leading roles. Afterwards, make new stories with that initial synthesis serving as the creative catalyst. Of course, if you continue making movies for many years, eventually you'll reach fatigue, but Marvel is combating that by combining different genres with low-stakes stories: Ant-Man, Spider-Man, etc. However, if you're just starting out, make it easy for yourself - use your home run stories.
The idea of using some of the better novels as the basis for stories sounds pretty good, but when you dig down you run into some pretty big problems.

1. To really use those stories, even as a rough basis, you need the original cast to be much, much younger. It's tough to tell the Heir to the Empire story decades after RotJ, for example. Any version of Shadows of the Empire absolutely MUST have a younger cast. Etc.

Also some of those stories, like Dark Empire, hit even MORE on the themes that people rail about regarding TLJ. That series gave us Force Projection AND a Luke that didn't just have a moment of contemplation about killing his nephew, but willingly fell to the Dark Side just six years after RotJ, and includes rehashes such as superweapons and the Emperor as the antagonist. Anyone that hated Luke's arc in TLJ but would applaud an adaptation of something like Dark Empire is seriously inconsistent, so it wouldn't solve that particular problem.

2. I know we don't talk about this, really, but... are we really advocating having Mark and Carrie (who I love) carrying a new trilogy, or even a single movie? Even if it didn't require them to be out running around on their adventures (which it would, or else you're doing the AotC "sit around and talk" thing), you have Carrie who hadn't really acted aside from a cameo here or there in YEARS and Mark who has pretty much been just voice acting. Ford is Ford, so that would have been fine, but would he have signed on for another trilogy? I doubt it.



As for EU material, there has been a lot of it. Lots of worlds and ships from the EU have made it into the films. Vandor and the train. Vader's castle (though the location changed). Force Projection, a HUGE component of TLJ obviously, mentioned earlier is EU. A lot of elements about Ben Solo/Kylo Ren, really. A number of aliens. And that doesn't count the extensive amount of EU we've seen in the tv shows.

Now, have we had Mara Jade show up? Or Kyle Katarn? No. But one of the great strengths of the Story Group is giving things like this to the creatives to use to make the new canon feel familiar and authentic.
vwbug
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One story line I was wishing for in 8 and I hope they do in 9, is setup the movie like Godfather II. Have the current storyline going, and have a "flashback" story running as well, telling more of the story of Kylo and Rey's upbringing. Would be very fascinating.
Episode IV
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AG
vwbug said:

One story line I was wishing for in 8 and I hope they do in 9, is setup the movie like Godfather II. Have the current storyline going, and have a "flashback" story running as well, telling more of the story of Kylo and Rey's upbringing. Would be very fascinating.
YEAH I wouldn't mind a 4 hour movie to close it all out and basically tell the rest of 8 (as it should have been) and 9 into one mega movie.
bangobango
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AliasMan02 said:

Render said:

How have the films dug deep into EU material? I haven't seen anything to indicate that.

They may have reached fatigue in the novels, but not in the films. Novels and comics have to constantly think up new stories because they're unending; eventually they'll reach fatigue, as you pointed out. But if you're kicking off a new series of films, you have it easy, because you don't have to reinvent the wheel like long-running print media does. You just adapt those home run stories that worked really well. Nolan did that with Batman. The comics may have Batman marrying Catwoman right now because they ran out of good ideas years ago, but since Nolan was doing a finite amount of movies, he simply synthesized some of the best Batman stories: The Long Halloween, Dark Victory, Son of the Demon, Knightfall, and The Dark Knight Returns. The results were tremendous.

Since the OT actors were only going to be around for 1-2 movies, Disney (like Nolan) should've just synthesized all the great EU stories: Heir to the Empire trilogy, Shadows of the Empire, Dark Empire I, and Vector Prime. After those initial 1-2 movies that kill off the old characters, insert the new characters into those stories' leading roles. Afterwards, make new stories with that initial synthesis serving as the creative catalyst. Of course, if you continue making movies for many years, eventually you'll reach fatigue, but Marvel is combating that by combining different genres with low-stakes stories: Ant-Man, Spider-Man, etc. However, if you're just starting out, make it easy for yourself - use your home run stories.
The idea of using some of the better novels as the basis for stories sounds pretty good, but when you dig down you run into some pretty big problems.

1. To really use those stories, even as a rough basis, you need the original cast to be much, much younger. It's tough to tell the Heir to the Empire story decades after RotJ, for example. Any version of Shadows of the Empire absolutely MUST have a younger cast. Etc.

.


Well, considering they recast Harrison Ford for a Solo movie, why would they not just recast the original cast and start a few years after RotJ?

I could understand if they didn't want to do any recasting, but they did recast one of the big three so now it doesn't make any sense (other than they've not really had any direction and are making it all up on the fly).
AliasMan02
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I wouldn't have an issue but it was clear that Disney did not want to do that. The original cast was vitally important for the sequel trilogy.

Also, casting young Han has led to the same sort of incessant complaining that plagues episodes 7 and 8 already, so that doesn't exactly solve the problem.
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