Star Wars Discussion Thread

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AliasMan02
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I think it's a valid discussion. Luke has very limited resources and experience. He only bested Vader by using the Dark Side, pulling back only at the very last second from the brink. He would have failed to defeat the Emperor, but for Vader's intervention.

I think it's valid to question if the Jedi have regained sufficient skill or power to overcome trained, fanatical Dark Side users, let alone a Sith, without taking shortcuts.
Rex Racer
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From StarWars.com:

quote:
An ancient order of Force-practitioners devoted to the dark side and determined to destroy the Jedi, the Sith were a menace long thought extinct. Thousands of years ago, a rogue Jedi had come to the understanding that the true power of the Force lay not through contemplation and passivity. Only by tapping its dark side could its true potential be gained. The Jedi Council at the time balked at this new direction. The dark Jedi was outcast, but he eventually gained followers to his new order.

With the promise of new powers attainable by tapping into the hateful energies of the dark side, it was only a matter of time before the order self-destructed. Power-hungry Sith practitioners fought amongst themselves and dwindled their numbers. Weakened by infighting, the Sith were easily wiped out by the Jedi.

One Sith had the cunning to survive. Darth Bane restructured the cult, so that there could only be two -- no more, no less -- a master, and an apprentice. Bane adopted cunning, subterfuge, and stealth as the fundamental tenets of the Sith Order. Bane took an apprentice. When that apprentice succeeded him, that new Sith Lord would take an apprentice.

Thus, the Sith quietly continued for centuries, until the time of Darth Sidious...


I had read that history but forgotten it. So from the time of Darth Bane, there were only two Sith. But honestly, Sith is just a name for the order. As some of you said, there are doubtless other dark side practitioners, and some of them may decide to take the name of "Sith Lord" for themselves.
redline248
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quote:
I think it's a valid discussion. Luke has very limited resources and experience. He only bested Vader by using the Dark Side, pulling back only at the very last second from the brink. He would have failed to defeat the Emperor, but for Vader's intervention.

I think it's valid to question if the Jedi have regained sufficient skill or power to overcome trained, fanatical Dark Side users, let alone a Sith, without taking shortcuts.


What Luke will have at the time of this movie is 35 years of honing his skill under the guidance of 3 Jedi ghosts, who just happen to be 3 of the most powerful Jedi ever. Anakin could provide any insight needed to deal with the dark side. Frankly, I think it's more likely that any new dark side user would lack the skill to deal with Luke.
jabberwalkie09
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The problem I have is that they have said that the Clone Wars and the films are cannon, but the Clone Wars kinda broke the "rule of 2" when Count Dooku had both Ventress and Savage Opress as apprentices. Though the way they tried to explain having secret apprentices is the greed inherent in the Sith Order.

If Clone Wars isn't going to be cannon, then Palpatine and Vader are the only two Sith Lords to ever appear on screen who have practiced the dark ways of the force.

I think I have to come to the same conclusion as one of the other previous posters here, that the Sith are in pairs, not only two at any one time. That would be an easy way to explain having more than one master and one apprentice.
AliasMan02
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quote:
quote:
I think it's a valid discussion. Luke has very limited resources and experience. He only bested Vader by using the Dark Side, pulling back only at the very last second from the brink. He would have failed to defeat the Emperor, but for Vader's intervention.

I think it's valid to question if the Jedi have regained sufficient skill or power to overcome trained, fanatical Dark Side users, let alone a Sith, without taking shortcuts.


What Luke will have at the time of this movie is 35 years of honing his skill under the guidance of 3 Jedi ghosts, who just happen to be 3 of the most powerful Jedi ever. Anakin could provide any insight needed to deal with the dark side. Frankly, I think it's more likely that any new dark side user would lack the skill to deal with Luke.


I highly doubt they go this way. Luke having some incidental contact with ghosts (for the sake of talking through history for the audience) is one thing, but having them continue to train him is something else. If that were the case, there is no urgency for Luke to establish the Order because there are all of these dead masters hanging around. Plus it's lame.

In the old EU, ghosts could only communicate for a short time. By a few years after Jedi, Ben was relegated to talking to Luke in dreams, and even that was waning.

I imagine we will know more when the new Luke novel comes out, which takes place before Empire. That story was chosen for a reason... Disney is being very meticulous about what they introduce into the new canon and why. If teaching by Force Ghost is to be the norm, it will be established in that book, I'm sure.
redline248
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I don't think the Clone Wars broke the rule of 2. If I remember, Dooku used Ventress as a henchmen and never took her as an official apprentice. If he had, Palpatine -who knew about her -would have killed her, and maybe Dooku too. When that other guy came along, I think Dooku decided to make a move to take down Palpatine and started to train the other guy for that purpose...which doesn't break the rule. Had he succeeded there still would have only been 2. Dooku failed, and that dude never became a Sith. Look at that guy like a Jedi Padawan. He got some training, but didn't get advanced a rank.


As to Luke being trained by force ghosts, I agree if they are always around it's overdone. I don't think that would be the case though. What I meant was they could pop up and say "go here and learn about this" or "you need to practice that."

[This message has been edited by redline248 (edited 6/17/2014 11:49a).]
AliasMan02
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quote:
I don't think the Clone Wars broke the rule of 2. If I remember, Dooku used Ventress as a henchmen and never took her as an official apprentice. If he had, Palpatine -who knew about her -would have killed her, and maybe Dooku too. When that other guy came along, I think Dooku decided to make a move to take down Palpatine and started to train the other guy for that purpose...which doesn't break the rule. Had he succeeded there still would have only been 2. Dooku failed, and that dude never became a Sith. Look at that guy like a Jedi Padawan. He got some training, but didn't get advanced a rank.


As to Luke being trained by force ghosts, I agree if they are always around it's overdone. I don't think that would be the case though. What I meant was they could pop up and say "go here and learn about this" or "you need to practice that."

[This message has been edited by redline248 (edited 6/17/2014 11:49a).]


Yep. Agreed.

In the EU, Luke used some of Ben's journals as well. I think that's a good angle.
jabberwalkie09
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Good points red.
Ulrich
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I've said it before, but the iron adherence to the rule of two that many assume is incorrect. Yes, they have a rule, but this is an order that works by secrecy, deception, plotting, and evil in a quest for power. It makes no sense for a group with that set of values to strictly adhere to any code, especially one that so obviously limits their power. You can generally assume that every Sith lord is setting up at least one apprentice on the side, and frequently more than one. Anything else would not be true to their characters.

The value in the rule is in keeping the Sith order relatively small and hidden by disincentivizing empire building and forcing secrecy in this one matter until they have the power to grab the whole enchilada, not in having literally two Sith at any point in time.

[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 6/17/2014 1:36p).]
AliasMan02
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I don't think anyone questions that Sith constantly have apprentices, are plotting against each other, etc. I just don't think there are pairs of Sith running around the galaxy as a matter of course.
redline248
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Ulrich I don't agree with that at all. If a master has multiple apprentices on the side, he's increasing the odds of being offed by one of them early, without teaching all he knows, thus watering down the Sith power. The closest you'd get to what you're talking about is how Palpatine was working to get Anakin to replace Dooku, or Luke to replace Vader.

There were no apprentices on the side. Vader didn't have one, and seemed content to stay the apprentice until Luke came along. Again, using the movies as canon, Palpatine was not the kind of guy to let other Sith be in existence. If he was powerful enough to sense Luke's threat, he would have also felt other dark side usage.
AliasMan02
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quote:
Ulrich I don't agree with that at all. If a master has multiple apprentices on the side, he's increasing the odds of being offed by one of them early, without teaching all he knows, thus watering down the Sith power. The closest you'd get to what you're talking about is how Palpatine was working to get Anakin to replace Dooku, or Luke to replace Vader.

There were no apprentices on the side. Vader didn't have one, and seemed content to stay the apprentice until Luke came along. Again, using the movies as canon, Palpatine was not the kind of guy to let other Sith be in existence. If he was powerful enough to sense Luke's threat, he would have also felt other dark side usage.


Vader's apprentice, Starkiller, was canon until a few weeks ago.
redline248
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Ok. He's not any more.
jr15aggie
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So, does this mean Han Solo has a goatee for VII??? I hope not! He still very much has that Han Solo look when he's clean shaven and his hair is the appropriate style.

Ulrich
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I'm not particularly leaning on canon, more on logic. However, the (expired) canon backs up my logic. Vader had a dozen apprentices at various times, Palpatine had several, Sidious had several, and presumably that pattern held true for most Sith lords.

The Master always wanted extra apprentices on his side to help manipulate events, to keep his main apprentice sharp, or to step up into the main apprentice's spot if needs required. The main apprentice wanted extra apprentices to keep the line going when he assassinated the master and to help in his quest to supplant the master. You can count on one thing from Sith lords: they will amass whatever kinds of power they can, whether that is money, allies, political or business power, or apprentices. Those apprentices could easily splinter off on their own because they have the same mental makeup and training as the main line Sith and because they periodically get cut off when their master is killed.
redline248
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quote:
I'm not particularly leaning on canon, more on logic. However, the (expired) canon backs up my logic. Vader had a dozen apprentices at various times, Palpatine had several, Sidious had several, and presumably that pattern held true for most Sith lords.



There's a reason it's expired.

Also, the master and apprentice can have allies and helpers and not train then to be Sith.
Ulrich
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I guess I'll never get why people are so adamant that the bad guys will follow the rules.
redline248
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B/C they made those rules, and prior to the rule they nearly became extinct b/c of constant in fighting.
Ulrich
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No, there's not a response. I don't think you get what I'm saying, and I don't get what you're saying.
1
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18 more months of this? I'm going to eat a thermal detonator.
jabberwalkie09
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quote:
18 more months of this? I'm going to eat a thermal detonator.


I was actually surprised that at the succession of force ghosts there wasn't a collective groan or debate about them.~
InnerCityAg
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I'd like to see a spin-off movie that follows the political career of a certain Jar Jar Binks. It would be funny to see him tongue slap a frog at a state dinner.
AliasMan02
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quote:
I'd like to see a spin-off movie that follows the political career of a certain Jar Jar Binks. It would be funny to see him tongue slap a frog at a state dinner.


Just watched a clone wars episode that was basically that. Great show, but... Ugh.
InnerCityAg
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You're kidding me? I have never seen the show.
AliasMan02
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quote:
You're kidding me? I have never seen the show.


It's very good. I'm in Season 3. Just saw a Jedi and his clone troopers get gunned down. It gets pretty harsh.

I just usually skip the 1 or 2 Jar Jar episodes in each season.

If you want to actually give a sheet about Anakin and watch his slow fall that we were denied in the prequels, give it a shot. It's all canon, even in the new wave. Just know that the movie that kicks it off is way more kiddie than the actual show, and there are still some annoying kiddie aspects, like the battle droids.
redline248
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Man you're in for a treat when you hit the droid centric episodes
garrettc16
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AliasMan is telling it like it is. The battle droid dialogue can get on my nerves as it is extra kid-centric/cheesy, but overall I've been really impressed with how they're not afraid to show good guys going down and what not. I'm only a season in though, trying to stretch it out a bit in preparation for the new movies.
TCTTS
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A lot of clarification, speculation, and overall design talk from Latino Review today...

http://www.latino-review.com/news/s7ar-wars-so-jedi-hunters

Namely, that bit about "Jedi Hunters" from a few days was likely a little exaggerated/misinformed. Driver and Lupita Nyong are still almost assuredly the villains, but the bit about resurrecting the Sith/Darth Sidious probably isn't quite right.

And while "Da7e" is great scoop guy, his writing is often somewhat incoherent (as evident below). Still, his basic idea for the movie, based on everything he's heard so far, sounds amazingly cool; that Luke isn't so much a prominent, featured character as he is the McGuffin of the movie. I love this notion that Luke has potentially tapped into some greater threat or knowledge, and the basic thrust of the movie is everyone trying to find him. Bad guys and good guys alike. Kind of a race to find Luke first, for whatever reasons. It would also be the perfect excuse to have to get the band back together, so to speak, to locate him. It would definitely explain why they're revisiting Tatooine as well.

Who knows if there's any truth to this, but I'm in love with the general concept...

quote:
My speculation time. Read that again. Speculation. Here is the pivot where I stop relying on reporting and turn to my blessed fan-mind that’s trying to fit all these puzzle pieces into place. I still don’t go much for “An Ancient Evil” as a subtitle and that being the main thrust of the plot. Honestly, at this point, it’s shaping up as a search for Luke or on behalf of Luke.

As a really vague guess, I’d say Luke has been tapped into whatever the greater threat to the current Star War way before everyone else did and now that Han and Leia and the children begat from characters of the original trilogy need to find Luke and...this-other-character-I-shouldn’t-talk-about-yet… to mount some sort of defense or response. I don’t who these other "mercenaries" serve, but I doubt our hero faction aren’t the only ones looking for him.

Like I said, crazy guess, but a Luke-as-MacGuffin chase can give us enough time with [***potential spoiler***]soon-to-perish[***/potential spoiler***] Han and allow Mark Hamill to Yoda his way through the trilogy if he wanted too.

ANYWAY - I thought these confirmations, denials and speculations were worth waiting to talk about Warner Bros and DC’s new line-up of superhero films (especially since I think El Mayimbe has a bit more to say about that).

I am, however, so very pleased to have real news, rumors and discussion coming out about this movie 548 days away from release. I’d be disappointed if we knew the whole thing already, honestly.


[This message has been edited by TCTTS (edited 6/18/2014 1:01p).]
MGS
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quote:
I'd like to see a spin-off movie that follows the political career of a certain Jar Jar Binks.


House of Cards - Coruscant
AliasMan02
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That plot seems awesome. Great way to get us back into the world and set up the bigger story.
TCTTS
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Agreed.
TCTTS
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More fan-made posters. Love these...



BMX Bandit
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quote:
Driver and Lupita Nyong are still almost assuredly the villains, but the bit about resurrecting the Sith/Darth Sidious probably isn't quite right.


please, please, please be Minnie Driver.
Simplebay
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reading that plot idea makes me so mad about Episodes I and II all over again. fk you Lucas. trade federation and crap.
AliasMan02
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Would be fun to get JJ off the record and hear him pitch a theoretical episodes I thru III.
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