bay fan said:Yep, I haven't stopped glowing since March which is very annoying at night. Luckily, the third arm I developed has proven handy though.Gumby said:
Not surprised you think there are chips in the vaccine. You probably think those FDA approved weight loss drugs are going to give you cancer as well.
https://www.naturalnews.com/2021-09-02-former-pfizer-vp-warns-booster-shot-extermination-weapon.htmlwbt5845 said:
Wife didn't have ICU space for transplant recipient post surgery. Other hospitals in area same boat.
Finally got ICU to set up and care for patient IN the OR post surgery. With so little space, a lot of procedures are being cancelled and room could be set aside for a day.
Until they get another kidney.
I know it's heartless, but the unvaxxed are really causing a lot of unnecessary issues for hospitals.
An Ag doc on TexAgs testifying to TRUTH. Thank you Doc. Truth, along with ER and ICU beds it seems, is in short supply these days.Port of Hepatis said:
You know that website is BS, right?
The hospital issue is due to the unvaccinated. PERIOD THE END.
I live this everyday at work. It's the same at all large urban hospitals.
That is exactly the narrative. Turn on the news and it's the thing they start with and how bad it is. Our local leaders are on TV talking about how bad it is. School districts are trying to mask kids because of how bad it is (even though the data doesn't support it). The fear is driving political policy as well. That's exactly what the narrative is because they know the average person will not bother or is incapable of looking at the data and understanding it.Irwin M. Fletcher said:aTm2004 said:The narrative that COVID is the worst thing we've ever seen, and getting it is almost a certain trip to the hospital, if you're lucky. The fact is, out of my wife and I, and my dad and his fiance (all unvaccinated), the only person who ended up in the hospital was my vaccinated aunt, who just got released yesterday after a week in the hospital. Is she an outlier? Yes. Are we? No.Irwin M. Fletcher said:
What narrative is that? Even if you are technically obese and unvaccinated you're more likely than not going to be ok overall. What I don't understand about you anti vax people is this means to you why get a vax? Well because although you're unlikely to end up in the hospital even if unvaxxed you are WAY more likely to end up in the hospital than someone who is vaccinated. Even if you're fit and lean. It's just the facts, and the vaccine is very safe. So it's an odds thing and a risk analysis thing. Long term side effects from the vaccine are tiny like very tiny. Long term events from Covid even if fit are small but not tiny. That is where some of you need to do some more research. If you go to Vegas you go to the table with the best odds, the vaccine gives you the best odds.
Do you know what, I never strayed from my position on the vaccine. Because you're right, it's an odds thing. I took the emotion out of it and looked at the numbers, took a real honest look at myself, and made my decision. COVID came and went like the numbers said it would. I chose one unknown over the other because both unknows were relatively small. For every story we all hear about how COVID got someone bad, we don't hear about hundreds or maybe thousands of others that had zero issue. That's one fact I have never lost sight of. Don't think what the media, social media, or this board portrays is an accurate reflection of the truth, because it's not. Let the numbers drive the decision.
You talk about Vegas. If I could go to Vegas and the numbers told me I had a >99% chance of winning, I'd go. So would you. Vegas knows you would as well, which is why they will ban you for counting cards.
Except that's not the narrative, I do realize there are those neurotic people who claim it's worse than Ebola, but there are also others claiming it's just the flu or not even that. Both are wrong. It's worse than the flu but it's not this plague type thing either. Reasonable people state this and know this. If you talk with reasonable physicians they basically will tell you this, not idiots on the internet from both sides. Look you took the chance and came out fine, but what you seem to not understand is that your personal experience is simply anecdotal and for you to extrapolate that to the populace as a whole is absurd and ridiculous. The odds were in your favor from the beginning but if you had also taken the vaccine your odds would have been improved with basically zero risk. Facts are facts and it's the unvaccinated causing issues now, although most unvaccinated that are getting it now will be absolutely fine, but for those that won't. Well they should have maybe improved their odds with little to no risk. That's all I'm saying and the data is on my side, real data not anecdotal from a personal experience.
You're right, the odds were low. The data told me that.Irwin M. Fletcher said:The odds of him going to the hospital were fairly low by being unvaccinated so they were in his favor; however, someone that is vaccinated has much better odds that he does.03_Aggie said:Irwin M. Fletcher said:aTm2004 said:The narrative that COVID is the worst thing we've ever seen, and getting it is almost a certain trip to the hospital, if you're lucky. The fact is, out of my wife and I, and my dad and his fiance (all unvaccinated), the only person who ended up in the hospital was my vaccinated aunt, who just got released yesterday after a week in the hospital. Is she an outlier? Yes. Are we? No.Irwin M. Fletcher said:
What narrative is that? Even if you are technically obese and unvaccinated you're more likely than not going to be ok overall. What I don't understand about you anti vax people is this means to you why get a vax? Well because although you're unlikely to end up in the hospital even if unvaxxed you are WAY more likely to end up in the hospital than someone who is vaccinated. Even if you're fit and lean. It's just the facts, and the vaccine is very safe. So it's an odds thing and a risk analysis thing. Long term side effects from the vaccine are tiny like very tiny. Long term events from Covid even if fit are small but not tiny. That is where some of you need to do some more research. If you go to Vegas you go to the table with the best odds, the vaccine gives you the best odds.
Do you know what, I never strayed from my position on the vaccine. Because you're right, it's an odds thing. I took the emotion out of it and looked at the numbers, took a real honest look at myself, and made my decision. COVID came and went like the numbers said it would. I chose one unknown over the other because both unknows were relatively small. For every story we all hear about how COVID got someone bad, we don't hear about hundreds or maybe thousands of others that had zero issue. That's one fact I have never lost sight of. Don't think what the media, social media, or this board portrays is an accurate reflection of the truth, because it's not. Let the numbers drive the decision.
You talk about Vegas. If I could go to Vegas and the numbers told me I had a >99% chance of winning, I'd go. So would you. Vegas knows you would as well, which is why they will ban you for counting cards.
Except that's not the narrative, I do realize there are those neurotic people who claim it's worse than Ebola, but there are also others claiming it's just the flu or not even that. Both are wrong. It's worse than the flu but it's not this plague type thing either. Reasonable people state this and know this. If you talk with reasonable physicians they basically will tell you this, not idiots on the internet from both sides. Look you took the chance and came out fine, but what you seem to not understand is that your personal experience is simply anecdotal and for you to extrapolate that to the populace as a whole is absurd and ridiculous. The odds were in your favor from the beginning but if you had also taken the vaccine your odds would have been improved with basically zero risk. Facts are facts and it's the unvaccinated causing issues now, although most unvaccinated that are getting it now will be absolutely fine, but for those that won't. Well they should have maybe improved their odds with little to no risk. That's all I'm saying and the data is on my side, real data not anecdotal from a personal experience.
You seem to be somewhat rational but you do realize these are contradictory, right?
Actual experiences make up the data that set the "odds." Odds were in his favor because that's what the data says too. Not anecdotal personal experiences.
I have natural immunity now, which is looking more and more each day to be better than the vaccine. Why should I get it? Go back and re-read what I wrote about my aunt. It's bolded above for easy reference. Point out, with supporting evidence and with detail me saying her experience was anecdotal.Quote:
He stated he still does not see the value of the vaccine based on his personal experience. His aunt who was vaccinated went to the hospital, yet that is just anecdotal.
You're right. The data does show those who are vaccinated are less likely to experience a negative outcome with COVID. I've stated before that if I were older or had health issues, my decision on whether or not to get the vaccine would be different.Quote:
The data is that those that are vaccinated are far less likely to experience negative outcomes from COVID than those that are not on the whole, but the odds of hospitalization even for the unvaccinated are lower than the odds of being hospitalized. My point is get as many odds in your favor as possible without taking on much or really any risk. I am betting his aunt would have died if she had not been vaccinated as she more than likely is older and has underlying issues.
It's the narrative on CNN maybe, but anyone can seek actual physicians opinions many on this thread that back me not you. Your experience is ANECDOTAL period. I can easily say this because the data on the unvaccinated versus vaccinated is pretty clear. The vaccinated have better outcomes overall, and it's not close. The 'millions' of others you claim that did ok, also anecdotal. Look at the overall data, including younger and healthier unvaccinated, they are WAY more likely to have negative outcomes. I don't know why you argue this, you can't win the data does not back you in any form.aTm2004 said:That is exactly the narrative. Turn on the news and it's the thing they start with and how bad it is. Our local leaders are on TV talking about how bad it is. School districts are trying to mask kids because of how bad it is (even though the data doesn't support it). The fear is driving political policy as well. That's exactly what the narrative is because they know the average person will not bother or is incapable of looking at the data and understanding it.Irwin M. Fletcher said:aTm2004 said:The narrative that COVID is the worst thing we've ever seen, and getting it is almost a certain trip to the hospital, if you're lucky. The fact is, out of my wife and I, and my dad and his fiance (all unvaccinated), the only person who ended up in the hospital was my vaccinated aunt, who just got released yesterday after a week in the hospital. Is she an outlier? Yes. Are we? No.Irwin M. Fletcher said:
What narrative is that? Even if you are technically obese and unvaccinated you're more likely than not going to be ok overall. What I don't understand about you anti vax people is this means to you why get a vax? Well because although you're unlikely to end up in the hospital even if unvaxxed you are WAY more likely to end up in the hospital than someone who is vaccinated. Even if you're fit and lean. It's just the facts, and the vaccine is very safe. So it's an odds thing and a risk analysis thing. Long term side effects from the vaccine are tiny like very tiny. Long term events from Covid even if fit are small but not tiny. That is where some of you need to do some more research. If you go to Vegas you go to the table with the best odds, the vaccine gives you the best odds.
Do you know what, I never strayed from my position on the vaccine. Because you're right, it's an odds thing. I took the emotion out of it and looked at the numbers, took a real honest look at myself, and made my decision. COVID came and went like the numbers said it would. I chose one unknown over the other because both unknows were relatively small. For every story we all hear about how COVID got someone bad, we don't hear about hundreds or maybe thousands of others that had zero issue. That's one fact I have never lost sight of. Don't think what the media, social media, or this board portrays is an accurate reflection of the truth, because it's not. Let the numbers drive the decision.
You talk about Vegas. If I could go to Vegas and the numbers told me I had a >99% chance of winning, I'd go. So would you. Vegas knows you would as well, which is why they will ban you for counting cards.
Except that's not the narrative, I do realize there are those neurotic people who claim it's worse than Ebola, but there are also others claiming it's just the flu or not even that. Both are wrong. It's worse than the flu but it's not this plague type thing either. Reasonable people state this and know this. If you talk with reasonable physicians they basically will tell you this, not idiots on the internet from both sides. Look you took the chance and came out fine, but what you seem to not understand is that your personal experience is simply anecdotal and for you to extrapolate that to the populace as a whole is absurd and ridiculous. The odds were in your favor from the beginning but if you had also taken the vaccine your odds would have been improved with basically zero risk. Facts are facts and it's the unvaccinated causing issues now, although most unvaccinated that are getting it now will be absolutely fine, but for those that won't. Well they should have maybe improved their odds with little to no risk. That's all I'm saying and the data is on my side, real data not anecdotal from a personal experience.
I didn't take a chance. I made an educated decision that was based in numbers and odds. Also, my personal experience isn't anecdotal. There are millions before me with the same experience that went into the data that I used (CDC demographic data), and my experience will go into that data set and hopefully help someone else make an informed decision.
Guy hasn't worked in an ER in two months and is a per diem contact hire. Someone should be fired over this. pic.twitter.com/yWOFB40bWy
— Stephen L. Miller (@redsteeze) September 5, 2021
The media tells me these are healthy 16 year olds. pic.twitter.com/CviX9BVLkv
— Marina Medvin 🇺🇸 (@MarinaMedvin) September 5, 2021
Irwin M. Fletcher said:
You want to know how I know you know absolutely nothing about statistics and what is anecdotal and what is not. I laid it out for you and you still don't get it. I have acknowledged that most whether they are vaccinated or not will not end up in the hospital have long covid or die. What you still will not admit or see is that the vaccinated are SIGNIFICANTLY less likely to end up hospitalized, develop long covid or die than the unvaccinated. This is at every age group and regardless of underlying health issues. That means if you take 100 vaccinated healthy people and 100 unvaccinated healthy people with no underlying issues. The probability of the unvaccinated group having some negative outcome is much higher. The bigger the N the more likely you will see it. Your experience is anecdotal because you say the only one in your circle that ended up hospitalized was the vaccinated one. Then you take that and extrapolate it the populace as a whole and use the data on overall outcomes and deaths breakdown by age to confirm that the vaccines are not good. The overall data doesn't back you but you just keep doubling down and will not acknowledge this. You can not be reasoned with, you can not grow and you are incapable of even seeing what I am saying because you believe what you want and seek confirmation bias to prove it.
Where have I said what is bolded? Go find where I have said the vaccine does not reduce the risk? I haven't. I have been consistent in everything I've said, which is I did not feel I needed the vaccine because the numbers told me my risk was low. The numbers you said do not support me, which is inaccurate.Irwin M. Fletcher said:
You want to know how I know you know absolutely nothing about statistics and what is anecdotal and what is not. I laid it out for you and you still don't get it. I have acknowledged that most whether they are vaccinated or not will not end up in the hospital have long covid or die. What you still will not admit or see is that the vaccinated are SIGNIFICANTLY less likely to end up hospitalized, develop long covid or die than the unvaccinated. This is at every age group and regardless of underlying health issues. That means if you take 100 vaccinated healthy people and 100 unvaccinated healthy people with no underlying issues. The probability of the unvaccinated group having some negative outcome is much higher. The bigger the N the more likely you will see it.
You are flat out lying and making claims I never said. I admitted her case was an outlier. Nowhere did I say what she experienced is the norm or try to use that as a case to justify not getting the vaccine. Again, you're lying.Quote:
Your experience is anecdotal because you say the only one in your circle that ended up hospitalized was the vaccinated one. Then you take that and extrapolate it the populace as a whole and use the data on overall outcomes and deaths breakdown by age to confirm that the vaccines are not good. The overall data doesn't back you but you just keep doubling down and will not acknowledge this. You can not be reasoned with, you can not grow and you are incapable of even seeing what I am saying because you believe what you want and seek confirmation bias to prove it.
I never said or claim to know more than physicians. But I am capable of reading data and making educated decisions. That's the same thing physicians do.Quote:
By the way the media I will admit sensationalizes everything, they want people to think this is ebola or something, but I am not really looking to them. I can read raw data and talk with many physicians in my line of work and also get data from physicians on this site in fact many on this very thread. Yet you seem to think you know more than them because you are a sheep that is totally a lap dog to the media both left and right. You see the sensationalism on CNN and run to Fox to let them tell you how they overblow it. I just look at raw data and talk with people that know things.
Irwin M. Fletcher said:
I realize that, go back and read some of his early posts on this thread. He is claiming why would anyone like him even consider the vaccine. I laid out many reasons why it might be a good idea, that is all.
And yet - after seeing the same data you see, the vast majority of physicians, regardless of age or specialty, choose to take the vaccine. Yes, maybe they know they'll be exposed more often to higher viral loads. I'd be curious to see though how many radiologists are vaccinated. My bet is that the vast majority of them are.aTm2004 said:
I never said or claim to know more than physicians. But I am capable of reading data and making educated decisions. That's the same thing physicians do.
We can start scheduling all the elective surgeries everyone has been forced to postpone. I've got a friend waiting for hernia repair... and waiting... and waiting.tysker said:
How are hospitals going to stay in business if we get to 100% vaccinations?
You sure do seem to care because you cheerlead it like no other. Also, I never "started in with I didn't need the vaccine..." Again, you're making things up. I looked at the numbers and felt I would be OK with COVID, thus would not get the vaccine.Irwin M. Fletcher said:
Look I really don't care if you are vaccinated or not. But early on you started in with I didn't need the vaccine and I looked at overall outcomes etc etc. OK, and I acknowledge you were right in saying looking at yourself and the overall outcomes you were unlikely to have a negative outcome.
For you not to care if I get the vaccine, you sure are posting a lot about why I should get it. Look dude, I've never once said the vaccine was ineffective nor have I said it's bad for me. I looked at the data and chose to not get it because the data said I would be OK with COVID. Could I have been an exception? Of course. That's a chance I was willing to take because the odds were very low. I know the odds of something going wrong with the vaccine were low, but again, I chose one unknown vs. another. You chose differently. Good for you.Quote:
You then began to say things why should I have even considered it. My point is and will continue to be that healthy people like you should strongly consider the vaccine because it is very safe and has been proven so and it is also very effective. If you had the vaccine before Covid your chances of a negative outcome from COVID went from very unlikely to zero and you took basically zero risk to get a zero chance of a negative outcome.
Just a general question...how many people are in the hospital now because when they started feeling bad, they were told to go home and let it run it's course? The 2 individuals who spent time in the hospital both went to the hospital once before and were sent home and told to let it run it's course. Both developed pneumonia and ended back up in the hospital. That's when they were actually treated. There doesn't seem to be any early treatment that docs push. It's get the vaccine, or come see us when you're in desperate need and we'll admit you to the hospital. I don't see or hear about any early treatments available. Monoclonal antibodies seem to be getting more traction, but it's not something talked about as it should be, IMO.Quote:
Yeah this isn't ebola but its a lot worse than the flu however, and many younger healthier people are in the hospital now because like you they calculated they were likely to be fine. Just ask the docs on this thread what they have seen. Is it a huge number out of the total of younger and healthier people that got COVID? No it is pretty small but if they had all had the vaccine not a one would be in the hospital now. Only ones vaccinated with underlying health issues would be.
aTm2004 said:You sure do seem to care because you cheerlead it like no other. Also, I never "started in with I didn't need the vaccine..." Again, you're making things up. I looked at the numbers and felt I would be OK with COVID, thus would not get the vaccine.Irwin M. Fletcher said:
Look I really don't care if you are vaccinated or not. But early on you started in with I didn't need the vaccine and I looked at overall outcomes etc etc. OK, and I acknowledge you were right in saying looking at yourself and the overall outcomes you were unlikely to have a negative outcome.For you not to care if I get the vaccine, you sure are posting a lot about why I should get it. Look dude, I've never once said the vaccine was ineffective nor have I said it's bad for me. I looked at the data and chose to not get it because the data said I would be OK with COVID. Could I have been an exception? Of course. That's a chance I was willing to take because the odds were very low. I know the odds of something going wrong with the vaccine were low, but again, I chose one unknown vs. another. You chose differently. Good for you.Quote:
You then began to say things why should I have even considered it. My point is and will continue to be that healthy people like you should strongly consider the vaccine because it is very safe and has been proven so and it is also very effective. If you had the vaccine before Covid your chances of a negative outcome from COVID went from very unlikely to zero and you took basically zero risk to get a zero chance of a negative outcome.
You're essentially standing on the side of a public pool telling people how safe and effective lifejackets are and how we should be wearing one while swimming, and we're all like "we're not saying they don't work or aren't safe, but we don't need one."Just a general question...how many people are in the hospital now because when they started feeling bad, they were told to go home and let it run it's course? The 2 individuals who spent time in the hospital both went to the hospital once before and were sent home and told to let it run it's course. Both developed pneumonia and ended back up in the hospital. That's when they were actually treated. There doesn't seem to be any early treatment that docs push. It's get the vaccine, or come see us when you're in desperate need and we'll admit you to the hospital. I don't see or hear about any early treatments available. Monoclonal antibodies seem to be getting more traction, but it's not something talked about as it should be, IMO.Quote:
Yeah this isn't ebola but its a lot worse than the flu however, and many younger healthier people are in the hospital now because like you they calculated they were likely to be fine. Just ask the docs on this thread what they have seen. Is it a huge number out of the total of younger and healthier people that got COVID? No it is pretty small but if they had all had the vaccine not a one would be in the hospital now. Only ones vaccinated with underlying health issues would be.
As far as the docs and what they've seen. I don't care. I believe they have a jaded view it because they only see the worst of it. I don't think they're able to remove the emotion and understand for every 1 person they see in the hospital, there are thousands more who barely know they have it or have minor symptoms. It's like the cop who has spent 20 years working in the worst part of a major city and seeing the worst of humanity, and thinking the soccer mom in his middle class neighborhood is the same as a the drug addict in the hood who neglects all of her children.
You claim not one person would be in the hospital now if they had the vaccine unless they had some underlying health issues? You believe that? You're 100% confident the vaccine keeps 100% of healthy people out of the hospital? Wow. I'm not denying the vaccine works, but I don't for a second believe it's 100% effective. If they have health issues, I agree with you, they should be vaccinate. If I had issues, my choice would have been different.
CondensedFoggyAggie said:Yesterday said:CondensedFoggyAggie said:rudy99 said:You are slinging insults around yet don't comprehend a basic post? Really?CondensedFoggyAggie said:wbt5845 said:
No Wife didn't have ICU space for transplant recipient post surgery. Other hospitals in area same boat.
Finally got ICU to set up and care for patient IN the OR post surgery. With so little space, a lot of procedures are being cancelled and room could be set aside for a day.
Until they get another kidney.
I know it's heartless, but the unvaxxed are really causing a lot of unnecessary issues for hospitals.
I'm sorry, I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to see your wifes health hanging in the balance.
How is she doing now.
Yep, my mistake. Sorry my disbelief and sadness at folks endangering their lives by rejecting science for unproven remedies meant for animals is an insult to you.
The doctor who prescribed me Ivermectin was a board certified physician and I picked up my meds at Walgreens. Talk about ignorance gulped down by the gallons from the trough of CNN's fear porn.
Oh great, so you found one doc while the vast majority of medical institutions in this country strongly are against horse paste.
You can scream CNN all you want like this is f16, but that doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of people on vents and dying are unvaccinated. If someone on twitter says sheep intestine cleaner works, hey why not?
Gizzards said:CondensedFoggyAggie said:Yesterday said:CondensedFoggyAggie said:rudy99 said:You are slinging insults around yet don't comprehend a basic post? Really?CondensedFoggyAggie said:wbt5845 said:
No Wife didn't have ICU space for transplant recipient post surgery. Other hospitals in area same boat.
Finally got ICU to set up and care for patient IN the OR post surgery. With so little space, a lot of procedures are being cancelled and room could be set aside for a day.
Until they get another kidney.
I know it's heartless, but the unvaxxed are really causing a lot of unnecessary issues for hospitals.
I'm sorry, I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to see your wifes health hanging in the balance.
How is she doing now.
Yep, my mistake. Sorry my disbelief and sadness at folks endangering their lives by rejecting science for unproven remedies meant for animals is an insult to you.
The doctor who prescribed me Ivermectin was a board certified physician and I picked up my meds at Walgreens. Talk about ignorance gulped down by the gallons from the trough of CNN's fear porn.
Oh great, so you found one doc while the vast majority of medical institutions in this country strongly are against horse paste.
You can scream CNN all you want like this is f16, but that doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of people on vents and dying are unvaccinated. If someone on twitter says sheep intestine cleaner works, hey why not?
Calling the prescribed version of Ivermectin "horse paste" demonstrates your ignorance or your willingness to attempt to mislead people to defend your viewpoint. Taking prescribed Ivermectin in the pill form is extremely safe and may be helpful. More importantly, your assumption that those who take it are not vaccinated is wrong. I think you would be surprised how many people who were pro vaccine and got Covid before they could get jabbed have used Ivermectin. Plenty who have had breakthrough infection post vaccine have used it as well. Being vaccinated and Ivermectin use are not mutually exclusive.
Did you somehow miss the news last year? Not sure how anyone can say hospitals were fine last year during the multiple surges?Livewire82 said:
So, back when 100% of people were not vaxed, most hospitals were fine. Now that 70% are vaxed, the unvaxed are clogging the hospital? I smell some serious bull****. I don't believe cases are being counted/labeled symmetrically as "Covid".
You mean back during the time that many schools were offering virtual options and many people were working from home? The same time that people were masking and social distancing more than they are now? The time before the Delta variant?Livewire82 said:
So, back when 100% of people were not vaxed, most hospitals were fine. Now that 70% are vaxed, the unvaxed are clogging the hospital? I smell some serious bull****. I don't believe cases are being counted/labeled symmetrically as "Covid".
Livewire82 said:
So, back when 100% of people were not vaxed, most hospitals were fine. Now that 70% are vaxed, the unvaxed are clogging the hospital? I smell some serious bull****. I don't believe cases are being counted/labeled symmetrically as "Covid".
