Captain Positivity said:

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The issue this time is not surge beds, it's staffing. Last night we were holding many patients in the ER not because we didn't have a room to put them in but because those rooms didn't have nurses. The nurses we have working here are getting burned out because we are being asked to take more patients than we believe is safe for effective care. A lot of our staff, especially the younger staff, isn't picking up overtime. Being offered essentially four times their average pay to work in overtime shift and people aren't doing it.

What is also really starting to piss me off is we have so many people in their 80s and 90s here for non-Covid issues, including several who are frequent admits and are basically vegetables. Trached, pretty much comatose. Families refuse to make them DNR. Families refuse to put them on hospice. We have three or four of those right now. One family demanded for the patient to stay in the hospital even after being put on hospice and revoked hospice AND the DNR when we told them they had to go to a nursing home or home. It's ridiculous.

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I thought the patient had to have provided the DNR prior to becoming incapacitatedor the relative just have a medical power of attorney? It's not like families can just make decisions without the legalities in place.

bay fan said:

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Salute The Marines said:

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Aren't you in a California military hospital? I thought mask mandates would have brought your case load to near zero.

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What's wrong with you? Don't like it when someone very clearly knows more then you and it's not what you want to hear?

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No, I'm curious as to why he is seeing any cases at all with mask mandates in place by his local leadership and the DOD.

They work right?

bay fan said:

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Salute The Marines said:

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Aren't you in a California military hospital? I thought mask mandates would have brought your case load to near zero.

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What's wrong with you? Don't like it when someone very clearly knows more then you and it's not what you want to hear?

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No. He just wants to know why this is an issue if masks work.

traxter said:

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Salute The Marines said:

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bay fan said:

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Salute The Marines said:

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Aren't you in a California military hospital? I thought mask mandates would have brought your case load to near zero.

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What's wrong with you? Don't like it when someone very clearly knows more then you and it's not what you want to hear?

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No, I'm curious as to why he is seeing any cases at all with mask mandates in place by his local leadership and the DOD.

They work right?

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Probably the same reason why he never sees anyone that wears a seatbelt die in a car accident.

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So he's just seeing a few statistical outliers then? Is that what you are saying?

Why are so many hospitals not capable of handling covid patients?

larry culpepper said:

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GAC06 said:

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larry culpepper said:

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Um, no. Mask mandates dont magically undo damage already done. Hopefully in a few weeks it will slow the numbers down, but that'll only happen if people actually comply.

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Masks work and if masks aren't working it's because people aren't wearing masks because masks work.

Absolute clown world. How are people still buying this **** after seeing it not work over and over?

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Masking up and getting vaccinated has worked great in countries that have actually implemented those practices. Look at Canada and the UK. No one ever said masks are perfect. But when most people are using them in public, they have an effect.

And none of your mocking me and whining about it changes that.

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the only effective way to curb this spike is getting vaccinated. We do not need more masks, we need more vaccines in arms. Period. The rest really is theater and political strategy.

The vaccinated still have no need to wear masks. They can spread the virus most likely but its rare and no real studies prove that vaccinated are at all a major vector. This is 99% unvaccinated spread. The vaccinated and recovered are even more likely to not spread the virus. The combo of natural and vaccine immunity is just about as steel a trap as you can get.

If they want to re-institute mask mandates truly,(and not b/c a Judge Jenkins wants to make the governor look bad) than have certain conditions where us vaccinated are exempt. We have done our part. Let's face it, the majority of those getting sick made a choice not to vaccinate, so......

Capitol Ag said:

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larry culpepper said:

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GAC06 said:

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larry culpepper said:

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Um, no. Mask mandates dont magically undo damage already done. Hopefully in a few weeks it will slow the numbers down, but that'll only happen if people actually comply.

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Masks work and if masks aren't working it's because people aren't wearing masks because masks work.

Absolute clown world. How are people still buying this **** after seeing it not work over and over?

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Masking up and getting vaccinated has worked great in countries that have actually implemented those practices. Look at Canada and the UK. No one ever said masks are perfect. But when most people are using them in public, they have an effect.

And none of your mocking me and whining about it changes that.

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the only effective way to curb this spike is getting vaccinated. We do not need more masks, we need more vaccines in arms. Period. The rest really is theater and political strategy.

The vaccinated still have no need to wear masks. They can spread the virus most likely but its rare and no real studies prove that vaccinated are at all a major vector. This is 99% unvaccinated spread. The vaccinated and recovered are even more likely to not spread the virus. The combo of natural and vaccine immunity is just about as steel a trap as you can get.

If they want to re-institute mask mandates truly,(and not b/c a Judge Jenkins wants to make the governor look bad) than have certain conditions where us vaccinated are exempt. We have done our part. Let's face it, the majority of those getting sick made a choice not to vaccinate, so......

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I agree with nearly everything, especially since the CDC had previously stated that vaccinated people dont need to wear masks. They reversed course on that because of the minority of vaccinated people who are contracting delta, and spreading it to unvaccinated people.

Yes, vaccines in arms is way more important than masking up. I at least understand the local school districts' position on masks, though, since the vast majority of children and adolescents are unvaccinated.

But the issue is that children, even with delta, are statistically not at risk from covid. So why the need to "protect" them?

larry culpepper said:

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Salute The Marines said:

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But the issue is that children, even with delta, are statistically not at risk from covid. So why the need to "protect" them?

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To stop the spread of covid. This conversation gets frustrating because I think some people really don't grasp the idea that we should do everything we can to stop the spread.

Like if you go to f16 people say they wont get the vaccine because they have a HiGh ChAnCe oF sUrViVaL. Okay, fine. But when most people are vaccinated its hard for the virus to spread. Same logic applies to schools. Why would any school anywhere want to risk a covid outbreak? We know how insanely contagious delta is. If there's an outbreak it could keep most of a given grade level out of school for weeks.

Of course, kids also go home to their parents. Some parents may not be vaccinated. Timmy who got covid from his cousin who was visiting for the weekend and spreads it to 10 classmates, including Susie. Susie goes home and spreads it to her unvaccinated dad who goes to the ICU.

Last but not least, it does affect kids. Louisiana's children's hospitals have gotten a s***ton of kids in lately for covid. That's not a good thing.

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In my opinion, I don't see how the spread of COVID will be stopped. Australia and New Zealand literally locked their country and still have spread, albeit minimal and now they're locking down again. And if the vaccine is still allowing the virus to spread from vaccinated people, we will definitely not stop the spread of COVID.

The conversations have to be grounded in reality.

I completely agree but we vaccinated people are suffering masks because there is ZERO way to have minimum wage employees enforce masks only on unvaccinated..heck, you couldn't pay me enough to do that, imagine the belligerence. It's a policy of practicality and it does suck. A benefit of the vaccine ought to be no mask. Heck, I will totally support any business that requires proof of vaccine. Nobody should complain because they are all about freedoms and business owners have choices too.

larry culpepper said:

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My God, Florida and Louisiana are dumpster fires. Hospital capacity is now a serious concern. I pray we peak soon.

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Yep, you should go see Dr Pepper about it

Aggie95 said:

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Probably 20% of ICU is Covid.

Data matters...relevant data even moreso.

1) how many icu beds are unavailable due to staffing issues
2) what percent of icu patients are covid, what is percentage of other causes?
3) avg age
Etc...
These ICU stats are 100% fear porn.

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The lack of responsible reporting is the biggest issue in the entire COVID situation.

A decent reporter would know to ask these questions. And they would provide context so the public would understand that hospitals don't operate with ICUs at 50 percent capacity on a regular basis.

Today's news people don't know enough to ask, and even if they did, their mission in life is to spread narratives, not report facts.

Yesterday I saw an article out of Arkansas that quoted a pediatric resident saying she "had never seen the hospital so full." Yes, in all her years of experience as a resident ...

The hospitals aren't responsible for "fear porn." It's the media. It's what they do.

bay fan said:

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I completely agree but we vaccinated people are suffering masks because there is ZERO way to have minimum wage employees enforce masks only on unvaccinated..heck, you couldn't pay me enough to do that, imagine the belligerence. It's a policy of practicality and it does suck. A benefit of the vaccine ought to be no mask. Heck, I will totally support any business that requires proof of vaccine. Nobody should complain because they are all about freedoms and business owners have choices too.

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I'd honesty be ok with employers requiring vaccination cards to be shown to be exempt. I work for Prosper ISD and we currently are not requiring masks. If there was a push to reinstitute a mandate(which I HATE but is what it is), just have the admin require proof of vaccination and all staff and students that are vaxed are free to choose. Collin County won't reinstitute a mandate for sure. It would have to come from the Office of the Governor. I am sure a lot of districts are awaiting the outcome of Abbotts appeal. But if he were to lose the appeal, it's a compromise that would probably work. IF masks work at all, even a little bit to limit viral load, than exempting the vaccinated should be enough to curb the spread. If masks do not work, we would see a continued rise. Regardless, I think the Delta spike still goes down. Given the statistics of those still not vaccinated, the majority aren''t Right Wing anti-vaxxers, it's just regular people nervous about the vaccine that think masking is good enough and just keep masking. What I actually want to see is us to allow the spike to raise enough to get more to realize that the vaccine is the best way to curb this, hopefully before another mutation renders it ineffective. Might sound cold hearted, but I am a choice guy, not a mandate guy. Well, if the spike gets bad enough, people will start to change their minds and make a different choice.

As for retail stores and other places, obviously a store could decide to mandate now. If they have the capacity to check vaccination cards, great. If not and the store feels compelled to have people mask up, fine. Most places would find that they just aren't staffed well enough to check for vax cards. We will just deal with it until the spike lowers here in a few weeks (my assumption based on what I am reading and hearing so who knows).

Quote:

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IF masks work at all, even a little bit to limit viral load, than exempting the vaccinated should be enough to curb the spread. If masks do not work, we would see a continued rise.

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Why are you saying that like we don't already know? We've had mask mandates. We've had spikes of cases come and go. Masks had nothing to do with the surges receding.

GAC06 said:

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Quote:

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IF masks work at all, even a little bit to limit viral load, than exempting the vaccinated should be enough to curb the spread. If masks do not work, we would see a continued rise.

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Why are you saying that like we don't already know? We've had mask mandates. We've had spikes of cases come and go. Masks had nothing to do with the surges receding.

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I agree. And in schools where everyone was masked, Covid totally blew through last year. Probably where my masked self got it in January. My only thing about masks that might "work"was load of a spread. But again, how can one tell? The studies are so iffy at best one way or the other. Plus, regarding schools, teachers already have more than enough on our plate to have to police every mask that droops too low or kid that has it off too much. It's just not realistic. Just like the store clerk needs to be able to focus on their job and not be a mask police, teachers have a job too.

Part of the issue is how this has become such an ll or nothing"debate. It doesn't need to be at all. Which is why I prefer choice over mandates. Judge Jenkins wants an all inclusive mandate with no exemptions outside of rare health issues and doesn't even try to consider a more nuanced approach where you could have more generalized exemptions and use what studies there are to see where one really would need a mask. I seriously doubt masks do any good in grocery stores that have a lot of open air and space and ventilation. Same with gyms. Again, most gyms didn't require masks during the governors mandate around me. Again, Collin Cnty just didn't enforce it. Of course Jenkins is doing this fully as a political strategy to try to make the Governor look bad. Does he actually care about masking? who knows or cares. This is politics 101 here. Take whatever you have at your disposal to hurt the other side of the aisle. There are enough people out there who support masking to see Jenkins as being "n their cornor" and if he stands up to the Governor, he has potentially put himself in a wonderful position to run for Governor or another higher office someday. That's how politics works unfortunately...

Pretty much there with you.

I don't watch the news. Will listen to the radio some mornings and pretty much read headlines and move on.

But data tells a story independent of bias. A graph shouldn't have arrows and words and annotations telling someone what to believe.

larry culpepper said:

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Salute The Marines said:

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But the issue is that children, even with delta, are statistically not at risk from covid. So why the need to "protect" them?

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To stop the spread of covid. This conversation gets frustrating because I think some people really don't grasp the idea that we should do everything we can to stop the spread.

Like if you go to f16 people say they wont get the vaccine because they have a HiGh ChAnCe oF sUrViVaL. Okay, fine. But when most people are vaccinated its hard for the virus to spread. Same logic applies to schools. Why would any school anywhere want to risk a covid outbreak? We know how insanely contagious delta is. If there's an outbreak it could keep most of a given grade level out of school for weeks.

Of course, kids also go home to their parents. Some parents may not be vaccinated. Timmy who got covid from his cousin who was visiting for the weekend and spreads it to 10 classmates, including Susie. Susie goes home and spreads it to her unvaccinated dad who goes to the ICU.

Last but not least, it does affect kids. Louisiana's children's hospitals have gotten a s***ton of kids in lately for covid. That's not a good thing.

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Please show me any evidence that any of these actions stop the spread of COVID.

Newsflash. We will NOT stop the spread of COVID.

But is there any real proof that instituting a masking mandate really brings these numbers down at all? There's never been enough proof for me. Some studies show yes, and others say no and still others are inconclusive. Plus how do we not know that spikes just go down regardless of the masking mandate? I think a lot of it is as I said, a political ploy, but also a lot of it is desperation by a very taxed medical which I totally get. Just ANYTHING that might work is grabbed at. But the issue has become so divisive with the public that its become a symbol as much as anything else, whether it works or not. Do I have an issue wearing a thin piece of material on my face? Yes but I can do it. But, given that I do not like it, I at least require, personally, there be overwhelming evidence that I, being a recovered Covid infected person and also having taken the vaccine, NEED a mask to protect others. And now, when there IS a vaccine? I do not want to have the gov't or an employer to force the vaccine on anyone who doesn't want it. But I do not want to have to mitigate for the unvaccinated either.

In the end, kids wearing masks when the flu is still so much more dangerous for them, is ridiculous. Kids, I feel, need to see each others faces and be able to express themselves, play and just be kids. To me that outweighs any risk to others.

Capitol Ag said:

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But is there any real proof that instituting a masking mandate really brings these numbers down at all? There's never been enough proof for me. Some studies show yes, and others say no and still others are inconclusive. Plus how do we not know that spikes just go down regardless of the masking mandate? I think a lot of it is as I said, a political ploy, but also a lot of it is desperation by a very taxed medical which I totally get. Just ANYTHING that might work is grabbed at. But the issue has become so divisive with the public that its become a symbol as much as anything else, whether it works or not. Do I have an issue wearing a thin piece of material on my face? Yes but I can do it. But, given that I do not like it, I at least require, personally, there be overwhelming evidence that I, being a recovered Covid infected person and also having taken the vaccine, NEED a mask to protect others. And now, when there IS a vaccine? I do not want to have the gov't or an employer to force the vaccine on anyone who doesn't want it. But I do not want to have to mitigate for the unvaccinated either.

In the end, kids wearing masks when the flu is still so much more dangerous for them, is ridiculous. Kids, I feel, need to see each others faces and be able to express themselves, play and just be kids. To me that outweighs any risk to others.

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I agree with you on masks. I'm dubious of their effectiveness outside of a hospital setting. There are issues with type, quality, fit and proper use.

My point was more to the idea that ICU's aren't really packed and its overblown fear porn and hospitals are right in being cautious.

To me vaccines and natural immunity are the path forward here.

I am against masks in schools for all kids and for teachers in the k-6 environment. I'm not sure how you teach younger kids with out all the queues at your disposal.