agforlife97 said:

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We're destroying the economy over a virus that killing tons of people who have already outlived their life expectancy. I have really lost a lot of faith in our policymaking process and frankly I think "science" has really discredited itself in worrying ways here.

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do you think its mask mandates destroying the economy or that maybe some people don't want to catch a fairly contagious disease and thus stay home?

superunknown said:

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agforlife97 said:

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We're destroying the economy over a virus that killing tons of people who have already outlived their life expectancy. I have really lost a lot of faith in our policymaking process and frankly I think "science" has really discredited itself in worrying ways here.

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do you think its mask mandates destroying the economy or that maybe some people don't want to catch a fairly contagious disease and thus stay home?

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It's policy's forcing businesses to not open thus making people stay home that is killing the economy.

AustinCountyAg said:

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superunknown said:

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agforlife97 said:

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We're destroying the economy over a virus that killing tons of people who have already outlived their life expectancy. I have really lost a lot of faith in our policymaking process and frankly I think "science" has really discredited itself in worrying ways here.

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do you think its mask mandates destroying the economy or that maybe some people don't want to catch a fairly contagious disease and thus stay home?

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It's policy's forcing businesses to not open thus making people stay home that is killing the economy.

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Name one that is not open by policy in Texas. I don't care what is happening in California, but I imagine the story is much the same there. Nothing is "closed". People simply choose not to go places because they are scared, often rightly so.

https://www.kxxv.com/brazos/community-members-call-foul-after-brazos-valley-bars-forced-to-close-due-to-rising-covid-19-hospitalizations


here is one tiny example. add in the fact that the majority of all business's all tie in to each other somehow the economic impact is felt far and wide.

Go on, would love more examples. Bars for sure. Live events, for sure.

Can't think of much else, though.

There are so many businesses listed as "essential" and other than the first month or so back in March..the highways are still crowded, the parking lots at retail are still crowded. So, I guess I just don't see it, but I'm a solid 10 years past my barfly days, though.

culdeus said:

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AustinCountyAg said:

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superunknown said:

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agforlife97 said:

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We're destroying the economy over a virus that killing tons of people who have already outlived their life expectancy. I have really lost a lot of faith in our policymaking process and frankly I think "science" has really discredited itself in worrying ways here.

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do you think its mask mandates destroying the economy or that maybe some people don't want to catch a fairly contagious disease and thus stay home?

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It's policy's forcing businesses to not open thus making people stay home that is killing the economy.

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Name one that is not open by policy in Texas. I don't care what is happening in California, but I imagine the story is much the same there. Nothing is "closed". People simply choose not to go places because they are scared, often rightly so.

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https://texags.com/forums/37/topics/3110681/1
Nothing is closed except for the businesses that have closed forever.

If the right protocols are in place why would people be scared? What more should be done?
We don't go the movies because they are closed. City parks and playgrounds were closed. Attending professional sporting events is essentially closed. Participation and attendance in childhood sports is at a decades-long low. Sometimes the costs, hassles and delays of dealing with current restrictions outweigh the benefits of even participating. (This is similar logic used by gun waiting periods). Not everyone has the same needs and preferences.


edit to add: Several theaters here in Dallas are still performing plays but attendance is virtual. So they aren't "closed" per se but likely wont bring in nearly the same amount of revenue through high margin segments like wine/beer sale and merchandise. And the would-be attendees aren't attending restaurants before or after, stimulating additional middle class jobs. Saying 'Nothing is closed' is almost insulting to the small business owners struggling to get by and doing what they can to keep their employees paid and clients serviced.

Here in New Mexico, there is plenty closed. No indoor dining. No movie theaters. No putt putt golf. No amusement parks. Lots of schools closed.

Young girls are quitting dance lessons because 3 year olds shouldn't be forced into masks while exercising.

superunknown said:

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Go on, would love more examples. Bars for sure. Live events, for sure.

Can't think of much else, though.

There are so many businesses listed as "essential" and other than the first month or so back in March..the highways are still crowded, the parking lots at retail are still crowded. So, I guess I just don't see it, but I'm a solid 10 years past my barfly days, though.

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Your post deserve no response from be because clearly you have no idea of what you're talking about blinded by the media and all of your other branch covidians. BUT, since I'm slow at work, because of the covid, I have time to respond and give you a brief little example of how our economy has been effected by the closure's.


bars close-bar owners lose money and jobs
beer distributor-sales dip, hours are cut, employees lose money, lose their job, etc
no need to distribute beer, so the diesel companies who sell diesel for the beer trucks are losing revenue, employees are cut, etc



I prolly need to go on and give more examples for you, or perhaps draw some type of picture, but I don't feel like it now.

Community hospital where I am a rehab director had a census of 67 to start the day with 29 COVID+ patients. 3 are in ER hold status for over 24hrs because we do not have a bed available.

This is getting worse before it gets better and the holidays are going to show that we are not getting a handle on this and it is getting worse. We will be in this state until end of Feb at the least IMO

superunknown said:

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Go on, would love more examples. Bars for sure. Live events, for sure.

Can't think of much else, though.

There are so many businesses listed as "essential" and other than the first month or so back in March..the highways are still crowded, the parking lots at retail are still crowded. So, I guess I just don't see it, but I'm a solid 10 years past my barfly days, though.

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bars are closed, which you listed. Restaurants are at reduced capacity and many cannot survive long term at 50% occupancy. Sports venues - did you watch bowl games? The economies of all of those cities took huge hits.

Disney - still operating at reduced hours and reduced capacity.

So many businesses are hurting, and it is absolutely due to covid.

Can everyone please stop arguing about the economy on this thread?

proc said:

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Can everyone please stop arguing about the economy on this thread?

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There are plenty of other places on Texags to argue your point. This one thread , just leave it be. Please.

superunknown said:

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agforlife97 said:

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We're destroying the economy over a virus that killing tons of people who have already outlived their life expectancy. I have really lost a lot of faith in our policymaking process and frankly I think "science" has really discredited itself in worrying ways here.

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do you think its mask mandates destroying the economy or that maybe some people don't want to catch a fairly contagious disease and thus stay home?

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I was referring to the lockdowns. There's a lot of desperate people out there right now because of job loss, etc. I own a business and I see it every day, people living in their cars coming in wanting a job. I have a two page list of people who want to work. Elites and policy makers don't see these folks, they aren't being counted. There's a vague notion they are there, but $600 ain't going to go far.

I do appreciate the people on the front lines discussing what is happening and the reasons why they think it is happening. Seems like most want to change to political post which is why most get moved to forum 16.

One of the rules I like to follow, listen to the boots on the ground.

I find it interesting that on a thread where doctors are discussing how close to a breaking point their situation is, certain people still feel the need to discuss the economic damage. We all get it and all of the consequences and struggles associated, but frankly the callousness that some of you have to the situation being discribed in this thread is disheartening. Some of these places are at a breaking point with society acting the way they are right now. What about that suggests the actual solution is to pretend it's 2019 again? Clearly the solution is not to weld ourselves shut in our homes, but it cannot be to ignore what's clearly going on around us either. The government is not stopping you from flying, but if you look at airline capacity a week or two out (post holiday rush), many flights are at 10% capacity. Lack of societal demand is driving the vast majority of the economic damage. And when the only real alternative is systemic healthcare collapse (the point of this thread after all), maybe they should be. You all want doctors to not play God, treat every patient well, and things return to normal. That is all impossible as it stands right now let alone in some hypothetical world where society ignores the virus.

Let's get the vaccine rolling and rebuild. That's the only real solution.

tysker said:

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OP specifically mentions trade-offs. If you can't appreciate the ethical trade-offs being made in OP and are able to relate it to overall decision making than I dont know what to tell you...

Quote:

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Just consulted on my 7th covid of the day. 1/2 of them elderly DNR, in ICU - beginning to think we are going to have to make tough decisions. Don't think those pts should occupy precious ICU beds now. Terrible.

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He is talking about medical trade offs. He is talking about having to make decisions about life/death, deciding who gets care and who doesn't.

I get it we made strange decisions that effected the economy. But that's not what the intent or this thread is about. I think an economic trade offs discussion would be great just on this thread, it just derails it and brings it back around to politics and who is right and wrong.


[Agree. Do not derail the intent of this thread. - Staff]

AustinCountyAg said:

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Gordo14 said:

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I find it interesting that on a thread where doctors are discussing how close to a breaking point their situation is, certain people still feel the need to discuss the economic damage. We all get it and all of the consequences and struggles associated, but frankly the callousness that some of you have to the situation being discribed in this thread is disheartening. Some of these places are at a breaking point with society acting the way they are right now. What about that suggests the actual solution is to pretend it's 2019 again? Clearly the solution is not to weld ourselves shut in our homes, but it cannot be to ignore what's clearly going on around us either. The government is not stopping you from flying, but if you look at airline capacity a week or two out (post holiday rush), many flights are at 10% capacity. Lack of societal demand is driving the vast majority of the economic damage. And when the only real alternative is systemic healthcare collapse (the point of this thread after all), maybe they should be. You all want doctors to not play God, treat every patient well, and things return to normal. That is all impossible as it stands right now let alone in some hypothetical world where society ignores the virus.

Let's get the vaccine rolling and rebuild. That's the only real solution.

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while I agree with much that you said this point can't be ignored.

Rules/regulations are playing a large part as well. We (my family) are itching to travel to multiple places, but with the govt forcing you to quarantine when arriving, or the lack of open businnesses/attractions in those places makes it not worth flying there for vacations. I'd venture to say their are millions of people across the world in the same boat as us.

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See the content of this thread to figure out why those restrictions are in place.

Gordo14 said:

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I find it interesting that on a thread where doctors are discussing how close to a breaking point their situation is, certain people still feel the need to discuss the economic damage. We all get it and all of the consequences and struggles associated, but frankly the callousness that some of you have to the situation being discribed in this thread is disheartening. Some of these places are at a breaking point with society acting the way they are right now. What about that suggests the actual solution is to pretend it's 2019 again? Clearly the solution is not to weld ourselves shut in our homes, but it cannot be to ignore what's clearly going on around us either. The government is not stopping you from flying, but if you look at airline capacity a week or two out (post holiday rush), many flights are at 10% capacity. Lack of societal demand is driving the vast majority of the economic damage. And when the only real alternative is systemic healthcare collapse (the point of this thread after all), maybe they should be. You all want doctors to not play God, treat every patient well, and things return to normal. That is all impossible as it stands right now let alone in some hypothetical world where society ignores the virus.

Let's get the vaccine rolling and rebuild. That's the only real solution.

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No one is saying ignore the virus. I'm saying don't ignore the people also that are being harmed by dumb covid response policies.

Callousness works both ways ok? Our policy choices in response to covid have caused tremendous harm, especially to people like laborers, bartenders and servers who are working paycheck to paycheck. Yes, there is lack of demand for some things. But there has been endless fearmongering by the media, elites and government entities over a virus that by and large affects only very specific segments of the population. Government policy should be based on statistics, ok? Not on emotion. That seems callous to people who don't understand the big picture, clearly.

I have tremendous respect for the doctors who are working this pandemic. But these guys also work the flu seasons every year and in bad years it's also really busy, and literally no one cares. Is that callous also?

And we are nowhere near systemic healthcare collapse. That's just fearmongering. If we were we'd be opening field hospitals and by and large we are not, and the ones that are there are empty.

Cactus Jack said:

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The most frustrating aspect to me is something you touched on several weeks ago. We have 40-year-olds who need to be in ICU and our ICU beds are currently occupied by a bunch of people who had no quality-of-life even before Covid. We had a lady on our floor who was in her late 80s, dementia, no movement on the right side due to a stroke, needing constant suctioning because she couldn't even clear her own secretions. She should have been in hospice months ago. Family wanted her to be a full code. We had to code her, probably broke half her ribs. Now taking up an ICU bed.

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Seeing this daily. I have a DNR 89 y/o end stage dementia pt with covid. Dying. Absolutely miserable. Several days in ICU. The family is withdrawing today. Since March I have not seen one pt like her survive. I was reading in So Cal there are areas where EMS is telling NHs that they won't transport these type pts to hospitals because there are no beds.

Hope it doesn't come to that nationwide but at our current trajectory, I suspect there will be other regions making hard decisions like these.

agforlife97 said:

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Gordo14 said:

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I find it interesting that on a thread where doctors are discussing how close to a breaking point their situation is, certain people still feel the need to discuss the economic damage. We all get it and all of the consequences and struggles associated, but frankly the callousness that some of you have to the situation being discribed in this thread is disheartening. Some of these places are at a breaking point with society acting the way they are right now. What about that suggests the actual solution is to pretend it's 2019 again? Clearly the solution is not to weld ourselves shut in our homes, but it cannot be to ignore what's clearly going on around us either. The government is not stopping you from flying, but if you look at airline capacity a week or two out (post holiday rush), many flights are at 10% capacity. Lack of societal demand is driving the vast majority of the economic damage. And when the only real alternative is systemic healthcare collapse (the point of this thread after all), maybe they should be. You all want doctors to not play God, treat every patient well, and things return to normal. That is all impossible as it stands right now let alone in some hypothetical world where society ignores the virus.

Let's get the vaccine rolling and rebuild. That's the only real solution.

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No one is saying ignore the virus. I'm saying don't ignore the people also that are being harmed by dumb covid response policies.

Callousness works both ways ok? Our policy choices in response to covid have caused tremendous harm, especially to people like laborers, bartenders and servers who are working paycheck to paycheck. Yes, there is lack of demand for some things. But there has been endless fearmongering by the media, elites and government entities over a virus that by and large affects only very specific segments of the population. Government policy should be based on statistics, ok? Not on emotion. That seems callous to people who don't understand the big picture, clearly.

I have tremendous respect for the doctors who are working this pandemic. But these guys also work the flu seasons every year and in bad years it's also really busy, and literally no one cares. Is that callous also?

And we are nowhere near systemic healthcare collapse. That's just fearmongering. If we were we'd be opening field hospitals and by and large we are not, and the ones that are there are empty.

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This response, especially the bold, makes me think you haven't read the thread or don't care?

We should reach nationwide, field hospital levels of surge before we do anything?

agforlife97 said:

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Cactus Jack said:

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The most frustrating aspect to me is something you touched on several weeks ago. We have 40-year-olds who need to be in ICU and our ICU beds are currently occupied by a bunch of people who had no quality-of-life even before Covid. We had a lady on our floor who was in her late 80s, dementia, no movement on the right side due to a stroke, needing constant suctioning because she couldn't even clear her own secretions. She should have been in hospice months ago. Family wanted her to be a full code. We had to code her, probably broke half her ribs. Now taking up an ICU bed.

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This is such an important point. From a high level, the country just seems to have had a psychotic break. It's as if 50% of the population or more just realized that death is a thing, and it's going to happen to them one day too. We're destroying the economy over a virus that killing tons of people who have already outlived their life expectancy. I have really lost a lot of faith in our policymaking process and frankly I think "science" has really discredited itself in worrying ways here.

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Back near the beginning you said the same thing... except you estimated 20,000 dead in the US... But same thing -- "virus killing tons of people who have already outlived their life expectancy".

You've been off, by a bit.

Seems like the # of dead really isn't going to change your view, it will only change once it hits closer to home.

Slight thread derailment but seemed fitting, this is a good reminder to have your wills and such updated and to get your family to do the same. My wife and I agreed we don't want the other to be responsible for the hard decision.

Updating a previous post. MIL has been in home hospice now for 36 hours, the hospice nurse has been a positive force. Oxygen, nebulizer treatments every four hours, Z pack.

Her oxygen is actually up slightly from yesterday. She's still in the fight.