When I go out somewhere, I wear the mask wherever I'm mandated to.

In some cases it sucks because it's hot and you are there for a long time. I don't know how grocery workers etc wear masks all day long as after Wearing one for about 10 minutes I feel like I can't breathe anymore.

I was in a pizza place the other day and it was really hot in there and I could only imagine how hot it must have been behind the counter in front of the pizza ovens.

I asked one of the workers how they do it and he said that he's had to send workers home several times because they were suffering from heat exhaustion due to wearing the mask

I just can't wait until we don't have to wear a mask anymore in public places And things can Finally get back to Some type of normal.

Hullabaloo91 said:

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Thank you for noting the publication date of the NEJM article and posting the link to the UCSF study. I hadn't seen that one. I'm surprised that the NEJM hasn't published an update if, in fact, their published opinion is no longer valid. They also decided to republish this opinion towards the end of May which could indicate that they still hold their original opinion to be valid.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on this study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25903751/ which is titled: A Cluster Randomised Trial of Cloth Masks Compared With Medical Masks in Healthcare Workers. The conclusion was:

...the results caution against the use of cloth masks. This is an important finding to inform occupational health and safety. Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection. Further research is needed to inform the widespread use of cloth masks globally. However, as a precautionary measure, cloth masks should not be recommended for HCWs, particularly in high-risk situations, and guidelines need to be updated.

This study was specific to health care workers, but if cloth masks could increase the risk of infection, then universal use of cloth masks should at least be scrutinized.

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It is worth noting that if there is an increased risk of infection, it would seem to be from bacterial or fungal infections, not viral.

According to everything I know about viruses, they cannot multiply outside of a living cell. Since there are presumably no living cells inside the mask, any viruses you may breathe in from the mask are no worse than what was breathed onto the mask. And if viruses have died on the surface of the mask, then then they are no threat at all.

NyAggie said:

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When I go out somewhere, I wear the mask wherever I'm mandated to.

In some cases it sucks because it's hot and you are there for a long time. I don't know how grocery workers etc wear masks all day long as after Wearing one for about 10 minutes I feel like I can't breathe anymore.

I was in a pizza place the other day and it was really hot in there and I could only imagine how hot it must have been behind the counter in front of the pizza ovens.

I asked one of the workers how they do it and he said that he's had to send workers home several times because they were suffering from heat exhaustion due to wearing the mask

I just can't wait until we don't have to wear a mask anymore in public places And things can Finally get back to Some type of normal.

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Also, it feels a bit odd walking into a store with your straw hat, pearl button shirt, possibly a bolo tie (if I wear a tie anymore, it is a bolo tie but only on special occasions such as weddings, funerals, Christmas, Easter, and Reformation Sunday), and a mask. I doubt that most people care about whether it looks odd to them nearly as much as we care about looking odd to others.

eric76 said:

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NyAggie said:

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When I go out somewhere, I wear the mask wherever I'm mandated to.

In some cases it sucks because it's hot and you are there for a long time. I don't know how grocery workers etc wear masks all day long as after Wearing one for about 10 minutes I feel like I can't breathe anymore.

I was in a pizza place the other day and it was really hot in there and I could only imagine how hot it must have been behind the counter in front of the pizza ovens.

I asked one of the workers how they do it and he said that he's had to send workers home several times because they were suffering from heat exhaustion due to wearing the mask

I just can't wait until we don't have to wear a mask anymore in public places And things can Finally get back to Some type of normal.

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Also, it feels a bit odd walking into a store with your straw hat, pearl button shirt, possibly a bolo tie (if I wear a tie anymore, it is a bolo tie but only on special occasions such as weddings, funerals, Christmas, Easter, and Reformation Sunday), and a mask. I doubt that most people care about whether it looks odd to them nearly as much as we care about looking odd to others.

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Who cares what other people think? They'll get over it.

Middle schoolers care what people think of them. Time for more people to be grown ass adults and get over that.

Player To Be Named Later said:

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eric76 said:

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NyAggie said:

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When I go out somewhere, I wear the mask wherever I'm mandated to.

In some cases it sucks because it's hot and you are there for a long time. I don't know how grocery workers etc wear masks all day long as after Wearing one for about 10 minutes I feel like I can't breathe anymore.

I was in a pizza place the other day and it was really hot in there and I could only imagine how hot it must have been behind the counter in front of the pizza ovens.

I asked one of the workers how they do it and he said that he's had to send workers home several times because they were suffering from heat exhaustion due to wearing the mask

I just can't wait until we don't have to wear a mask anymore in public places And things can Finally get back to Some type of normal.

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Also, it feels a bit odd walking into a store with your straw hat, pearl button shirt, possibly a bolo tie (if I wear a tie anymore, it is a bolo tie but only on special occasions such as weddings, funerals, Christmas, Easter, and Reformation Sunday), and a mask. I doubt that most people care about whether it looks odd to them nearly as much as we care about looking odd to others.

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Who cares what other people think? They'll get over it.

Middle schoolers care what people think of them. Time for more people to be grown ass adults and get over that.

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Beautifully written. I couldn't have said it better.

Great video with lots of good visualizations:

Went to have bbq tonight. Outside he had posted a sign about "masks optional, something, something, liberties."

Ok cool, i get it, we'll wear ours and sit on a patio.

What DID bother me was every bit of the staff, food preppers, etc not wearing one. Pretty much not down with strangers putting my food together not wearing one.

His place, his rules, but we will never be back.

Did you finish your meal or leave as soon as you saw the conditions?

Had already paid. Wasnt going to cause a scene, got our plates, sat on the patio, and won't go back. Simple enough.

Guy also makes a habit of showing up on negative reviews and trashing people who didn't like his place. Simple enough just to not return.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-07-14/evidence-mounts-that-masks-help-lower-your-exposure-to-the-coronavirus

More evidence, albeit somewhat anecdotal, that masks not only may work, but may be crucial to fully opening up the economy.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6928e2.htm

bigtruckguy3500 said:

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More evidence, albeit somewhat anecdotal, that masks not only may work, but may be crucial to fully opening up the economy.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6928e2.htm

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It truly perplexes me how much of a fight that masks has been turned into. One would think maybe that EVERYONE wants businesses open and wants to try to keep them open all while mitigating potential spread.

But no, this country has to fight about this **** too.

My wife works with two of the authors from that study.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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Player To Be Named Later said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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Serious question: How can any rational human being believe/think these masks are beneficial? There is no requirement for material/design/proper use. I see people wearing them with massive holes in the side as it billows from their face. Not likely helping. And material. Have materials been tested and shown to help? People are using just cotton Tshirts and other fabric bought at hobby lobby with zero consideration/design to prevent virus penetration. When I think about it logically the masks dont seem to provide any actual benefit.

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That's because you're still thinking about it wrong. The point of a mask is NOT to stop YOU from breathing in any virus in the air. It's to catch as much droplets/virus as possible coming out of your potentially asymptomatic mouth when you cough, sneeze, or standing within 6ft of someone else.

This is why Reveille feels they will be worthwhile if we get to 80% of folks wearing masks.

I'm really amazed that people still think mask usage is to prevent YOU from catching anything. That's not the point, and that's been covered ad nauseum. IF a mask was only there to stop you from catching anything, then I'd be 100% in support of voluntary mask usage as it would help be a form of Darwinism. People could feel free to just go catch it and spread to their family if they wished.

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I never said anything about me getting it or the user. Penetration works both ways. Old cotton T shirts being repurposed and worn about thinking you are protecting people is utter delusion. Especially when theres no design criteria or proper way to wear them.

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Penetration doesn't work both ways. If you blow the initial pathway with a mask, yes, the sneeze/cough/exhalation will still exit through other areas of the mask but it will be dramatically slowed and particles will not make those turns with a high frequency. The loss of speed then further reduces the distance they can travel.

I am not a doctor but I do have a graduate background in atmospheric chemistry dealing with aerosols and that is the governing principle at work for transmission via respiratory droplets. I don't have any insight to the actual disease but I can tell you with 100% certainty that a mask will 100% impede many of the aerosols carrying that diseases when it is placed over the mouth/nose where those aerosols come from.

Someone up a bit mentioned that bacteria are much larger than viruses and that is correct, but the size that matters here is that of the droplets that contain either and those are FAR larger than either.

Masks work.

MBAR said:

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I am not a doctor but I do have a graduate background in atmospheric chemistry dealing with aerosols and that is the governing principle at work for transmission via respiratory droplets. I don't have any insight to the actual disease but I can tell you with 100% certainty that a mask will 100% impede many of the aerosols carrying that diseases when it is placed over the mouth/nose where those aerosols come from.

Someone up a bit mentioned that bacteria are much larger than viruses and that is correct, but the size that matters here is that of the droplets that contain either and those are FAR larger than either.

Masks work.

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I'm sure someone with zero background in science will be along soon to tell you how a random internet study PROVES that they don't.

Player To Be Named Later said:

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bigtruckguy3500 said:

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More evidence, albeit somewhat anecdotal, that masks not only may work, but may be crucial to fully opening up the economy.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6928e2.htm

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It truly perplexes me how much of a fight that masks has been turned into. One would think maybe that EVERYONE wants businesses open and wants to try to keep them open all while mitigating potential spread.

But no, this country has to fight about this **** too.

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I think if everything was open 100% no one would oppose mask as much. In theory of mask what they are claimed to be why do we still have such restrictions to commerce? It's the selective opening coupled with masking that many have questions/reservations about.

The only reason to not wear a mask is if you legitimately have a medical reason, which is a fraction of the people actually claiming it. A former coworker of my wife has severe asthma and has been blogging about her experience, even logging her oxygen saturation multiple times a day. Long story short, wearing a mask has not affected her.

Otherwise if you're not wearing a mask, you're either a total moron or you are extremely selfish. If you're just being selfish, at least own it. Otherwise, people may assume the former.

EdmondsWay said:

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Player To Be Named Later said:

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bigtruckguy3500 said:

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More evidence, albeit somewhat anecdotal, that masks not only may work, but may be crucial to fully opening up the economy.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6928e2.htm

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It truly perplexes me how much of a fight that masks has been turned into. One would think maybe that EVERYONE wants businesses open and wants to try to keep them open all while mitigating potential spread.

But no, this country has to fight about this **** too.

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I think if everything was open 100% no one would oppose mask as much. In theory of mask what they are claimed to be why do we still have such restrictions to commerce? It's the selective opening coupled with masking that many have questions/reservations about.

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So the answer to that is just throwing a childish "Muh Freedoms" tantrum and telling everyone how you're the next great American Patriot for refusing to wear one?

People are really being pretty ridiculous out there about masks.

We had to roll back the opening because people wouldn't wear masks and social distance.

It's become a crazy lightning rod issue. There is zero doubt that it reduces droplet spread regardless of what some crackpot chiro says. I think fewer people would be opposed if the other shutdowns had been less drastic (which I agree went too far), but NOW this is something in their control where they are drawing the line. Which is incredibly ironic because I have no doubt widespread mask compliance would help us stay open and avoid the things that led to folks deciding to rebel on masks

Quote:

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I think if everything was open 100% no one would oppose mask as much. In theory of mask what they are claimed to be why do we still have such restrictions to commerce? It's the selective opening coupled with masking that many have questions/reservations about.

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People who argue that they would be willing to wear a mask if everything is open have as much credibility as a toddler who promises to eat their vegetables if they can have their dessert first.

I disagree. I don't think mask are the inherent issue. The issue is more in what business is allowable or not regardless of mask. Prior to recent EO we were opening at 25%, 50% and than 75% prior to mask mandate. If mask are the answer why are we still opening at "limited capacity".

To many, mask are, the end all be all, or, another form of suedo restriction.

EdmondsWay said:

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I disagree. I don't think mask are the inherent issue. The issue is more in what business is allowable or not regardless of mask. Prior to recent EO we were opening at 25%, 50% and than 75% prior to mask mandate. If mask are the answer why are we still opening at "limited capacity".

To many, mask are, the end all be all, or, another form of suedo restriction.

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I'm not sure the reasoning behind people making the decsions, however my assumption would be that we have an upward trajectory with lots of momentum, and we need to do something to lose that momentum.

Masks may very well mitigate a lot of spread, or may do minimal.

I'll repost my thought experiment I posted earlier somewhere else:

Let's say an infected person can spread it to 2 other people, then one person gets 2, those 2 get 4, those 4 get 8, etc.. Then masks go into effect. Let's assume a 50% decrease in infectivity, those 8 people are still going to give it to 8 people. And those 8 to 8 more. And that's assuming a 50% decrease, which is really unimaginable right now for any single intervention. I also think COVID's R0 is higher than 2, but I could be wrong.

If we use slightly different numbers and say 1 person can get 2, then 4 give it to 8. Mask goes into effect, and let's still assume a 20% reduction in infectivity. Those 8 are going to get 12 people sick, and those 12, will get 20 sick. And despite a massive 20% reduction, we still have exponential growth.

Since I don't think you were arguing against the reasoning behind it, hopefully it helps other posters who might not have thought about it that way.

EdmondsWay said:

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I disagree. I don't think mask are the inherent issue. The issue is more in what business is allowable or not regardless of mask. Prior to recent EO we were opening at 25%, 50% and than 75% prior to mask mandate. If mask are the answer why are we still opening at "limited capacity".

To many, mask are, the end all be all, or, another form of suedo restriction.

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I do think the issue is broader, but masks are what an individual can control which is why we've seen it become the odd lightning rod. They are by no means the end all be all, but I do think they could have reduced these other restrictions that are driving people to a rebel mindset. Which again, to me is kind of ironic

EdmondsWay said:

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I disagree. I don't think mask are the inherent issue. The issue is more in what business is allowable or not regardless of mask. Prior to recent EO we were opening at 25%, 50% and than 75% prior to mask mandate. If mask are the answer why are we still opening at "limited capacity".

To many, mask are, the end all be all, or, another form of suedo restriction.

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Because we screwed it up and went full throttle especially in the nightlife scene. It's not just about the mask as stated many times on this thread and in the videos. It's mask, social distance and wash hands. Limited capacity openings assist with social distancing.

I guess my question is how do we justify limited capacity and mask? If limited capacity promotes social distancing why do we still need mask. Flip side, if mask are what they claim, why not open it all up?

Because none of them are the 100% effective end all be all. Together they are quite effective. But I do think we need to be careful about limiting business and treat it as a last resort, which is why I think we need to lean in as much as possible on the other 2

EdmondsWay said:

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I guess my question is how do we justify limited capacity and mask? If limited capacity promotes social distancing why do we still need mask. Flip side, if mask are what they claim, why not open it all up?

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Because not everyone is wearing a mask and many are brazen about saying they won't and "muh freedom" - it isn't that hard. If everyone wore masks things would open up. Social distancing is ideal, but no matter how hard people try there will be situations where it's not possible, thus, the masks.

It's a little too easy and convenient to simply say "not everyone is wearing them"...kind of like the over month long mask order in California yet they have similar case rises as Texas and Florida...."but they had poor compliance"....then look over at Sweden with no mask orders and similar case/death curves as the rest of the world and its because they were compliant.

It seems simple enough. Wear a mask. But really it's more complicated than that. The entire country shut down because NY had a huge problem. You lose a lot of credibility by saying that had to be done. Then nothing changes and now we're told you have to wear a mask to bring this under control. It makes sense to me that people would question it because the original lockdown everywhere but NY looks like a knee jerk reaction that didn't accomplish anything. Legitimately asking if this truly the answer or another knee jerk reaction seems reasonable to me.

Explain Sweden?!?!?

Player To Be Named Later said:

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MBAR said:

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I am not a doctor but I do have a graduate background in atmospheric chemistry dealing with aerosols and that is the governing principle at work for transmission via respiratory droplets. I don't have any insight to the actual disease but I can tell you with 100% certainty that a mask will 100% impede many of the aerosols carrying that diseases when it is placed over the mouth/nose where those aerosols come from.

Someone up a bit mentioned that bacteria are much larger than viruses and that is correct, but the size that matters here is that of the droplets that contain either and those are FAR larger than either.

Masks work.

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I'm sure someone with zero background in science will be along soon to tell you how a random internet study PROVES that they don't.

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The same people will be arguing that the flu kills far more than covid-19.

I don't trust anyone's counts. So many limitations, so much gray area, and so many different approaches that can be used even when trying to do it honestly (which many are not). I do trust common sense of seeing droplets reduced, and if we were all reducing out droplets by wearing masks properly (another issue), spread would be reduced

Cookiemonster64 said:

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It's a little too easy and convenient to simply say "not everyone is wearing them"...kind of like the over month long mask order in California yet they have similar case rises as Texas and Florida...."but they had poor compliance"....then look over at Sweden with no mask orders and similar case/death curves as the rest of the world and its because they were compliant.

It seems simple enough. Wear a mask. But really it's more complicated than that. The entire country shut down because NY had a huge problem. You lose a lot of credibility by saying that had to be done. Then nothing changes and now we're told you have to wear a mask to bring this under control. It makes sense to me that people would question it because the original lockdown everywhere but NY looks like a knee jerk reaction that didn't accomplish anything. Legitimately asking if this truly the answer or another knee jerk reaction seems reasonable to me.

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This is why everything is going south very rapidly in so many areas. People want to argue about the past, add in misconceptions, add in feelings, spreading misinformation, politics (wow, you had lots of NY v Cali v Texas v Sweden above), etc. It's like in the Korean War when they couldn't even decide on the type of table to be used before they would hold peace talks. Regardless of the past, we know very well social distancing and masks have a very beneficial effect. Doctors have refined significantly treatment protocols and are improving even more rapidly. In the beginning I wasn't so involved with treatment of Covid cases being a vascular guy. Now, with clotting being determined as a primary factor in outcomes, I'm heavily involved. Please just wear a mask and social distance. This, combined with better treatments, will result in cases dropping drastically. Once those numbers drop, things will open up quickly; albeit likely in a much more controlled, methodical case. Continuing to argue about it just feeds into more arguing.

Cookiemonster64 said:

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It's a little too easy and convenient to simply say "not everyone is wearing them"...kind of like the over month long mask order in California yet they have similar case rises as Texas and Florida...."but they had poor compliance"....then look over at Sweden with no mask orders and similar case/death curves as the rest of the world and its because they were compliant.

It seems simple enough. Wear a mask. But really it's more complicated than that. The entire country shut down because NY had a huge problem. You lose a lot of credibility by saying that had to be done. Then nothing changes and now we're told you have to wear a mask to bring this under control. It makes sense to me that people would question it because the original lockdown everywhere but NY looks like a knee jerk reaction that didn't accomplish anything. Legitimately asking if this truly the answer or another knee jerk reaction seems reasonable to me.

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And now the entire ****ing country will be shut down because Arizona, Texas, and Florida have a huge problem.

And to see if it's truly the answer or a knee jerk reaction, let's take a page out of Pres. Young's playbook and appoint a 45 person committee that will get back to us in.....October.