Buzz's job security

9,530 Views | 79 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by greg.w.h
bobinator
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In reply to Proposition Joe • 1:17p, 7/7/21
AG
I don't want to have this whole argument again because we know where each other stand, but I think it's worth noting that he was voted SEC coach of the year by the media, so it's not like it's just A&M folks trying to spin an objectively bad season.

To me, this is all true:
- We were worse at the beginning than we should have been
- We improved a lot over the course of the year
- We were not very creative on offense
- That roster was limited
- That recruiting class was mostly bad
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Proposition Joe
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In reply to greg.w.h • 1:18p, 7/7/21
greg.w.h said:
I guess we could rag on Kennedy more to make a better contrast with what Buzz is doing differently that is appealing.

I mean, I'd take Buzz here 10 times over 10 vs Kennedy... and I want Buzz here for the next 3 years despite the mis-steps in the first two seasons.

But when a (9-20) Louisiana Monroe team takes you to the wire in Game #2 -- but then you go on prove to be an average major conference team -- it's clear you didn't have your team ready to play to start the season which is why it's difficult for me to give him a whole lot of credit for over-achieving somehow in Year 1.
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Proposition Joe
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In reply to bobinator • 1:28p, 7/7/21
bobinator said:
I don't want to have this whole argument again because we know where each other stand, but I think it's worth noting that he was voted SEC coach of the year by the media, so it's not like it's just A&M folks trying to spin an objectively bad season.

To me, this is all true:
- We were worse at the beginning than we should have been
- We improved a lot over the course of the year
- We were not very creative on offense
- That roster was limited
- That recruiting class was mostly bad

The SEC Coach of the Year think is such a tired bit. Someone has to win it, and when you give it to a coach whose team did not make the tournament it's essentially a "Most Improved" award -- and yeah, we were definitely that.

As for your bullet points, 100% agreed, but your first bullet-point is why I don't give Buzz a whole lot of credit for Year 1. We weren't going to be a tournament team, but we came out of the gate looking lost and wholly unprepared. Buzz has even admitted he didn't have his guys ready (though many coaches say as much with their coach-speak).

It wasn't until conference play (ironically in a game where we lost by double-digits to Arkansas) that we actually looked like we understood what we were doing out there. Jan/Feb we looked like a team lacking talent but playing to their abilities. He had his team underachieving for 2 months of the season. As a Top 10 salaried coach I don't see how people can somehow give him credit for a good year when that occurs.

And when many of those same people use the same type excuse in Year 2 with "oh well Buzz' style really got hurt by covid!". Give me a break.

He hasn't had his team ready to play in either of his first two years here.

He's still a great coach with skins on the wall. He's still a coach that should do great things here.

But let's call a spade a spade.
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bobinator
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In reply to Proposition Joe • 1:47p, 7/7/21
AG
But isn't it only underachieving if you compare us to the end of the year? I think we should have been better than we were to start the year, but I also don't think it would be reasonable to expect us to be as good at the beginning of the year as we were at the end with a first year coach.

I don't think it's really fair to look at the team at the end and say we should have been that good the whole time right?
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greg.w.h
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In reply to Proposition Joe • 1:54p, 7/7/21
AG
Agreed. And thanks for re-stating most of that. I didn't like what I saw other than the finish the first year. That was amazing.
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Proposition Joe
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In reply to bobinator • 2:07p, 7/7/21
bobinator said:
But isn't it only underachieving if you compare us to the end of the year? I think we should have been better than we were to start the year, but I also don't think it would be reasonable to expect us to be as good at the beginning of the year as we were at the end with a first year coach.

I don't think it's really fair to look at the team at the end and say we should have been that good the whole time right?

I know at least CBS Sports penned as "NIT-level" team in preseason predictions, which is seemingly the level we were playing at in conference. So while I wasn't disappointed in our conference performance, I wouldn't exactly consider it some significant achievement. We beat 1 ranked team, lost to 8 unranked teams (plus a double-digit loss at home to Okie Lite). Average margin of victory was 7 points, average margin of defeat was 13 points... so we weren't unlucky.

10-8 in a mediocre conference in Buzz first year? Yeah I'm fine with that, but certainly not wowed.

But pair that with nail-biters against UL Monroe, Troy and Texas A&M-CC (at home), a game that was over at halftime vs Gonzaga, and losses to Harvard, Temple and Fairfield?

Based on NET rating, we weren't even a NIT team.

Now to be fair one week in Florida basically took us from an over-achieving team to an under-achieving team... but your record is your record.
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bobinator
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In reply to Proposition Joe • 2:21p, 7/7/21
AG
I just think waving away how much that team improved by saying we should have been that good all along is a little unfair.

We don't really know that. The team didn't have Nebo in the preseason, it did have Starks, quite a few new players in the mix along with a new coach, I'm not sure there was any way to know what to expect to start the season, but what we got was definitely a worse-than-we-all-imagined scenario.

I dunno, the difference is all academic I guess at this point, but I didn't just see a team that went from underperforming to performing (though that was the case with several players like Flagg), there was also some individual improvement over the course of the season (especially Q and Miller).
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Ulrich
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In reply to Proposition Joe • 3:38p, 7/7/21
I'm not making any grand claims about making the tournament or whatever, but are you arguing that a team getting better as the first season progresses is a sign of bad coaching?
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Tavares19
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4:11p, 7/7/21
AG
My biggest complaint with Buzz's tenure so far is we had a ton of excitement around the program when he was hired. We really didn't need a complete rebuild, rather a boost. Better coaching and a key addition or two and we could've been right back in tournament contention. Instead we bottomed it out.

I'm sure some of that is Buzz's preference to build relationships rather than recruit one year rentals combined with some admittedly bad player evals that he probably regrets, but that doesn't make it any less frustrating, especially at a time when it's easier than ever to reload with the free transfer rule.

He has at least 2 more seasons to put a good product on the floor, let's see if that happens
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bobinator
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In reply to Tavares19 • 4:24p, 7/7/21
AG
This makes it sound like he tanked on purpose, when I'm sure that's not the case.

I do think, for better or worse, Buzz only knows one way of doing things and that way didn't work right away so here we are.
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Proposition Joe
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In reply to Ulrich • 4:30p, 7/7/21
Ulrich said:
I'm not making any grand claims about making the tournament or whatever, but are you arguing that a team getting better as the first season progresses is a sign of bad coaching?

Did anyone actually watch non-conference play in Buzz Year 1?

bobinator - did you see a team out there that was losing solely because they weren't talented enough, or did you see a team out there that didn't seem to know what they were supposed to be doing?

Does Buzz deserve credit for "getting them to figure out what they were supposed to be doing" by the end of the year? Sure... He also deserves blame for them not understanding it until 3+ months after practices started.

The guy has even admitted as much that he did not have his team ready that first year, so I'm not sure what we're even trying to debate?
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Proposition Joe
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In reply to bobinator • 4:33p, 7/7/21
bobinator said:
This makes it sound like he tanked on purpose, when I'm sure that's not the case.

I do think, for better or worse, Buzz only knows one way of doing things and that way didn't work right away so here we are.

And I think everyone would be OK with that, if it weren't for it happening again in Year 2.

Obviously a black swan event played a role in that... But when you pay a guy Top 10 money and the roster he is taking over while by no means a world-beater has solid pieces and for two years in a row *for whatever reason* his normally process didn't work... well he deserves the blame for it.

That doesn't mean abandon the process - obviously the guy has the skins on the wall and no reason to believe it won't eventually work (though obviously the recruiting game is changing tremendously)... but trusting the process doesn't mean you absolved of the results along the way.
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bobinator
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In reply to Proposition Joe • 4:44p, 7/7/21
AG
My question to you is do you not think a coach can help players get better during the season? Like the difference in Quenton Jackson from November to March was just "getting it" and that a coach should be able to have brand new players "get it" from the start of the season?

That's what I'm saying. Even if we were worse at the start of the year than we should have been, the improvement was still impressive. Both from a team standpoint and the individual players.

It's like saying if you look at Miller last season and saying his improvement from 2019 wasn't impressive, he was just underperforming that whole time because he didn't know what he was doing.
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Proposition Joe
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In reply to bobinator • 4:45p, 7/7/21
Ok, now do Savion Flagg.
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bobinator
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In reply to Proposition Joe • 4:49p, 7/7/21
AG
I mean I don't know what Savion Flagg's deal is. He was up and down the whole time here. Maybe it was coaching, maybe it's him, without being in practice how would we know.

My point wasn't that Buzz deserves all the credit for Miller improving, he doesn't, I was just saying that if you take the end product and compare what came before it and just always say that anything not as good as where you are now is 'underperforming' then that's a weird way of looking at things.
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Proposition Joe
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In reply to bobinator • 5:00p, 7/7/21
bobinator said:
I mean I don't know what Savion Flagg's deal is. He was up and down the whole time here. Maybe it was coaching, maybe it's him, without being in practice how would we know.

My point wasn't that Buzz deserves all the credit for Miller improving, he doesn't, I was just saying that if you take the end product and compare what came before it and just always say that anything not as good as where you are now is 'underperforming' then that's a weird way of looking at things.

And my point is you can segment it out and always find some reason why the coach did well (or didn't do well). That's why looking at the overall picture is always going to be less biased view -- especially since fans tend to only notice the roadblocks that THEIR team had, without realizing that every teams have these type roadblocks. Overcoming deficiencies is part of the game. "Oh well COVID really hurt how he readies his team" is excuse making. Every team dealt with COVID.

So yeah you can give Buzz credit for Miller improving, but you can't then ignore Flagg going from a key piece to seemingly lost.

Fact is we had a 84 NET Rating in Kennedy's final year.

Buzz was set to return 5 of the 6 top scorers from that team.

We put up a 134 NET Rating in Buzz' first year.

Anyone who says that was expected when Buzz took over is kidding themselves.

Sure you can twist one way and say who knew he wouldn't land of any of the big transfer talent, and turn that way and say who knew Flagg would regress, and twist that way and say who knew that Starks would leave the team, and then turn that way and say who knew Nebo would be hurt to start the year, etc, etc... Except 50+ other teams deal with issues like that every year. It's a regular part of college basketball, not some inconceivable bad luck that befell only us.

Ditto "Buzz not being able to do his normal prep due to COVID" in Year 2.


Is it reason to panic? No. But if you have to zig and zag to explain why a season ended up the way it did, well it's easier just to say it wasn't a good season. We dropped 50 spots in NET Ranking. It wasn't a good season.
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bobinator
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7:15p, 7/7/21
AG
I just think you can be impressed with the improvement while also thinking the overall season sucked.

Saying that just because we ended up being pretty good meant we always should have been that good because the players were the same is just an odd way of looking at it.
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CactusThomas
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7:42p, 7/7/21
AG
Going back to Fairfield in year one -

I am absolutely convinced that if all of our coaches had forgotten to show up for that game, the team would have won. Sometimes you have to get out of your own way and let the guys play ball.
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_lefraud_
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In reply to CactusThomas • 9:46p, 7/7/21
AG
It would be fun to see coaches be held accountable for the WTF loss. Like they should have to donate one months salary back to the Association or have them hang out by MSC all day signing autographs.
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WallyWonka
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In reply to bobinator • 12:03a, 7/8/21
AG
bobinator said:
WallyWonka said:

In his first season he may have made the tournament, but we'll never know.
It's absolutely crazy that some people still believe this.

Crazy, no.

This is a debate with no winner or loser as either side can't prove to be right/correct. It's a matter of if you see half full or half empty. You obviously believe/feel the Ags didn't have the ability to play themselves in. I believe/feel they had the ability to do just that.

I know you're a big basketball contributor and respect that and your opinion, but that doesn't mean your opinion on this matter is correct, nor my opinion correct.

However, Crazy, no.
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Hop
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In reply to Proposition Joe • 1:46a, 7/8/21
Staff
AG
Proposition Joe said:
greg.w.h said:
I guess we could rag on Kennedy more to make a better contrast with what Buzz is doing differently that is appealing.

I mean, I'd take Buzz here 10 times over 10 vs Kennedy... and I want Buzz here for the next 3 years despite the mis-steps in the first two seasons.

But when a (9-20) Louisiana Monroe team takes you to the wire in Game #2 -- but then you go on prove to be an average major conference team -- it's clear you didn't have your team ready to play to start the season which is why it's difficult for me to give him a whole lot of credit for over-achieving somehow in Year 1.


Who said he overachieved? I simply disagree that it was a failed year one as you suggested.
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_lefraud_
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In reply to WallyWonka • 2:07a, 7/8/21
AG
WallyWonka said:
bobinator said:
WallyWonka said:

In his first season he may have made the tournament, but we'll never know.
It's absolutely crazy that some people still believe this.

Crazy, no.

This is a debate with no winner or loser as either side can't prove to be right/correct. It's a matter of if you see half full or half empty. You obviously believe/feel the Ags didn't have the ability to play themselves in. I believe/feel they had the ability to do just that.

I know you're a big basketball contributor and respect that and your opinion, but that doesn't mean your opinion on this matter is correct, nor my opinion correct.

However, Crazy, no.

The only way the Ags were making the tourny was to win the SEC tournament. Yes, you are absolutely crazy to think that was a realistic probability.
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bobinator
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8:15a, 7/8/21
AG
There's absolutely no way we were getting in without winning the SEC Tournament, so the question is really is it crazy to think we had a decent chance of winning the SEC Tournament.

Let's be generous and give us a 60% chance of beating Missouri, and why not, we already beat them once, let's give ourselves a 50% chance of beating Auburn. Maybe LSU sleepwalks so let's give ourselves a 45% chance there, and why the hell not, if we make the finals we have all the momentum and Kentucky (or whoever) didn't need the game so let's give ourselves a wild 50% chance there.

We still would only have like a 7% chance of pulling all that off.

So is 7% possible? Sure, but it's pretty crazy to think it was going to happen.
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bobinator
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8:22a, 7/8/21
AG
It doesn't really matter, except that "We could have made the NCAA's!" does not paint an accurate picture of that first season.

Just like I think Prop Joe is a little too hard on that season, I think this take is too far the other way.
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AggieTFA06
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7:27p, 7/8/21
AG
Team making the NIT would make Buzz safe. I think that would mean progress. I like Buzz, but I hope his seat heats up because I want him to have the urgency to win. It sucks to watch other schools in the state of Texas have a basketball team they can be proud of. When can I get a basketball team that I can finally be proud of?
To 1,000,000 touchdowns ...and beyond
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greg.w.h
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In reply to AggieTFA06 • 2:50p, 7/9/21
AG
I was gone over 20 years from the campus when Gillispie showed up. Let's just say after all that time I had ZERO expectations of excellence. And then without falling into deep nostalgia, let me offer that I was more than pleasantly surprised.

For lots of reasons the situations are distinct and will not play out the same. But I want that wow factor and I don't mind the rough and tumble climb back to even a S16 game even if it takes a bit. My hope is that Buzz brings a moderated emotional reaction among his players so neither the highs nor the lows change the game they play and that it then proceeds in a positive direction.

That if we see some of it by Christmas will make me giddy again. Justneedearnest "money" in escrow for that.
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bobinator
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In reply to greg.w.h • 3:02p, 7/9/21
AG
You've been posting here consistently for several years and I still only understand about 30% of what you say.
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greg.w.h
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In reply to bobinator • 3:55p, 7/9/21
AG
And yet I support others saying what they want to and generally try to find things to discuss that are interesting. I don't see an issue with my participation,
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Maroon Dawn
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5:18a, 7/10/21
AG
My biggest concern for Buzz is that he doesn't seem to operate well in the new reality of the transfer portal and his recruiting is showing it

We went from a great incoming class to a completely mediocre one in a matter of a month thanks to transfers

We went from hopeful for the coming season to everyone already writing it off because our talent will still be bottom tier

He needs to figure it out quick because we are paying him way too much for the results we've gotten so far
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Maroon Dawn
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In reply to Maroon Dawn • 5:21a, 7/10/21
AG
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bobinator
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In reply to Maroon Dawn • 7:56a, 7/10/21
AG
If anything I think this off-season is showing that he is doing that. Like the only positives at all is how we've done with this recruiting class and in the portal right?
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sharpdressedman
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3:04p, 7/10/21
Buzz has proved elsewhere that he is a talented coach. Here, he has not been able to excel.

Edits for spelling failures.
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rangerdanger
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10:02p, 7/11/21
AG
I only want him gone in 2 years if Billy Clyde is his replacement. Has been, is, and will be my choice for this team. A&M and BCG need each other.
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DukeMu
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10:43p, 7/11/21
Year 2 did not advance the clock. Two more bad seasons would yield a warm to hot seat.

Coach K had a terrible year during COVID. Duke and Buzz's systems require teams to PRACTICE to be their best.

Looking forward to a great 2021-2022. Go Ags!
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DukeMu
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In reply to Maroon Dawn • 10:47p, 7/11/21
Maroon Dawn said:
My biggest concern for Buzz is that he doesn't seem to operate well in the new reality of the transfer portal and his recruiting is showing it

We went from a great incoming class to a completely mediocre one in a matter of a month thanks to transfers

We went from hopeful for the coming season to everyone already writing it off because our talent will still be bottom tier

He needs to figure it out quick because we are paying him way too much for the results we've gotten so far

Except for when Buzz was coming in, the portal over the last year from a b'ball skill and awareness of the game perspective has been addition by subtraction. Not trying to be harsh.

It will take a lot of practice and discipline to build team chemistry. However, I like most of our new talent. They have potential, and will do much better than the predicted 10th in the league IMO.
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