How did the virtual tasting work? Everybody agree to buy the same bottles or did you distribute wine so there would be fewer left open?

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What's year was the Rising Tides, and how was it?

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2016. Decanted for about 6 hours. Was fantastic.

Have another bottle that I'll revisit in a few years.

We each opened a different bottle from somewhere we had all visited together. We've done Paso twice so lots of options.

We talked about what we remembered from the visit, shared photos, etc. Then we read the winemaker's notes and an online review to decide which was the most pretentious.

big-ag said:

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What's year was the Rising Tides, and how was it?

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2016. Decanted for about 6 hours. Was fantastic.

Have another bottle that I'll revisit in a few years.

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I'm always afraid to wait "a few years" for fear that I'll wait too long and it'll go bad and ruin. One winery told me that they use "7 year corks" if that's even a thing, and that after that time the corks will shrink or split or something and the wine will go bad.

Yes, it's a thing. Best corks in the world are about 20 year corks. Bordeaux first growths are routinely recorked due to cork age. That being said, a 7 year cork isn't that high of quality, usually cork quality and bottle price go together.

cecil77 said:

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Yes, it's a thing. Best corks in the world are about 20 year corks. Bordeaux first growths are routinely recorked due to cork age. That being said, a 7 year cork isn't that high of quality, usually cork quality and bottle price go together.

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I thought that might be the case. I seem to remember thinking they want their wines to be drunk pretty soon rather than letting them age awhile.

We opened a 1999 Frog's Leap Cabernet last night (1.5 liter).

The cork was toast and crumbled trying to take it out. Before throwing away we decided to taste and it was outstanding. That's almost never the case in my experience.

Saw where NVV is having a 2 day sale beginning tomorrow at 10 am Pacific. May be able to get some gems at more reasonable prices.

That' why things like $150 corkscrew exist.

greenband said:

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We opened a 1999 Frog's Leap Cabernet last night (1.5 liter).

The cork was toast and crumbled trying to take it out. Before throwing away we decided to taste and it was outstanding. That's almost never the case in my experience.

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A crumbled cork does not necessarily mean the wine is bad or corked.

By the way, for older wines get this:

https://thedurand.com/

For those of you with a coravin, they also make a needle that is thinner for older bottles that supposedly does less damage and gives you a chance of getting through without destroying it.

https://www.coravin.com/new-vintage-needle.html

Austintm said:

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greenband said:

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We opened a 1999 Frog's Leap Cabernet last night (1.5 liter).

The cork was toast and crumbled trying to take it out. Before throwing away we decided to taste and it was outstanding. That's almost never the case in my experience.

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A crumbled cork does not necessarily mean the wine is bad or corked.

By the way, for older wines get this:

https://thedurand.com/

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Wish I'd said that!!

we're on there, we're running a promo with 2012 Sixteen and 2014 Estate Cab...

big-ag said:

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What's year was the Rising Tides, and how was it?

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2016. Decanted for about 6 hours. Was fantastic.

Have another bottle that I'll revisit in a few years.

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We opened a 2015 Linne Calodo Rising Tides tonight. This isn't your typical big Paso gsm blend. There's a lot of restraint and elegance in this wine. I'm glad I waited on it, as I had opened my other bottle two years ago, and didn't like it because the acid was too high. It's calmed down considerably, and if you have any left, I'd drink it soon.

We opened a 2015 J Lohr Cuvee' St. E last night into a decanter, put it in the fridge overnight and then drank it tonight. It was wonderful. Merlot heavy but enough Cab Franc and Cab Sauv to make it tasty and full-bodied.

All I have is one other bottle of the 2016.

Question - what is the best way to get older vintages cost effectively but some assurance it has been stored properly? Also curious the best way to judge the quality of these older vintages as sometimes aging can really change what you might think about the wine.

We have a ton of recent vintages for Alpha Omega, Altamura, Amizetta, 7and8, Italics, Davis Estates, Signorello, Turnbull, Inglenook, DR Stephens, Saint Helena Winery, Gamble, etc. Big cabs that will drink a lot differently in 10 years, but I'd some to add some older wine that I can drink now.

Open to the collective wisdom of the board

hey man! so here's my two cents...

Wineries do a good job of storing wines, so they are a good place to look. Typically they add on storage costs as time goes on, so they tend to appreciate in price gradually. I'm running a few deals on large formats and older vintages of Appellations right now if you're interested. I'll get you the good Ag discount. if you have a napa winery you're looking for in particular i could also put a call in for you if you'd like

Other than wineries, it can be kind of a crapshoot.

WineBid - you never know. I tried them for a bit and got some good wines but ended up getting some cooked bottles and they don't stand behind them like a winery would. Their warehouse is even in Napa and i picked it up so it wasnt in transit to me, they got them that way.

Shops - If you can find a shop that's been around for a while, they can have some good deals. Just gotta find one that's been in the same place for a while and doesnt store everything standing straight up at room temp... i havent tried using shop's online platforms much.

Restaurants - this one can be kind of sneaky. if you know a place that's been around for a bit (country clubs can be good if you're a member) you can try to see if you can buy inventory off them. Now in particular could be a great time to do it. i found some great late 90s stuff at a little restaurant that had a large list, stored it all properly and just had been sitting on it a long time.

Distributors - if you know someone in the distribution business, they always have something laying around. They store stuff properly and will generally part with older inventory for a good deal. Problem is, it can be hard to find what you're looking for that way. if you know someone really well, somtimes they can ask a particular winery for a special order for you. Larger outfits won't even entertain the idea, but smaller distributors are good about it if you've got the personal relationship.

I also know some folks that buy private collections, but you never know with that either. it's kind of a gamble either way...

hope it helps!

Going down real nice and easy tonight

For Easter I opened a 2017 Camille Giroud Ladoix, and I loved it. Classic black cherry and raspberry on the nose and palate, but there was an undercurrent of earth tone that gave it complexity. Medium bodied with a silky texture, finished with medium-light tannin.

I discovered it at a tasting event in Houston, and bought two bottles. Wish I had bought more. At $40 I think it's an incredible value for Burgundy. Would recommend having your retailer call the local importer/distributor that reps it.

We opened a 2017 Capanna Rosso di Montalcino tonight. For a wine in the $30 range, rossos might be my favorite.

jh0400 said:

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We opened a 2017 Capanna Rosso di Montalcino tonight. For a wine in the $30 range, rossos might be my favorite.

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I love Rosso's as well! Reineri Rosso is a go to for me, it's available at Total Wine

We did a virtual tasting though the wine bar with Christoph Hopler from Hopler Winery in Austria. He was on a Zoom meeting from Vienna. The Gruner Vetliner and the rose were my favorites, and the Blaufrankish was good too, but you have to like Chinon without the tannin. The rose was incredibly aromatic, and is a perfect Texas summer porch pounder. A good way to spend a Sunday.

How's the best way to determine if a wine can be layed down for awhile or needs to be drunk within 3-4 years or less

There's lots of variables at play, but in general, wines that are high in acid or tannin or both need some time to lay down and evolve. This doesn't apply all the time, because wines higher in acid like sauvignon Blanc and roses are meant to be drunk young. And most high end Napa cabs drink well young, because they have been over-extracted and need to be drunk young.
Also, it depends on how you like your wines. Some people like those fresher, if more tannic and acidic, flavors, while some people like the more aged flavors that you get with aging. My taste sits somewhere in the middle, but I'd prefer to have a little less fruit if that means the tannins aren't going to give me bitter beer face.
One way to experiment with this is to buy a six pack of something, and drink it over time and see how it evolves. When it's in your sweet spot, drink it all soon. You can also subscribe to CellarTracker and read tasting notes that people post. I try to post notes on everything I open, but sometimes I don't because of, well, consumption. I've found it to be very helpful.

Along those same lines, for those of you who use Cellar Tracker...

The drinking window is obviously crowdsourced and community based. How much stock do you put in the drinking windows on CT?

Some to none. You can read consecutive comments that hardly seem like they are talking about the same wine! Quite frankly professional reviews are as varied.

And to add to HTown's comments, you can't know the peak until you're past it. So part of the fun is trying them along. Also, in general, more expensive wines have more potential to improve, that's nowhere near a hard/fast rule, but under $30 bottles will rarely get much better. That being said, virtually all modern red wines aren't going to "spoil" or anything like that in under five years (excluding the very bottom end, pricewiee).

And... MicroOx has changed everything. It is becoming pervasive because it allows yet another variable for the winemaker to design a wine. And (again in general) MicroOx will shorten the lifespan of a wine.

I had to Google MicroOx - for those like me here are some details.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microoxygenation
Micro-oxygenation is a process used in winemaking to introduce oxygen into wine in a controlled manner.

The process of micro-oxygenation involves a large two chamber device with valves interconnected to a tank of oxygen. In the first chamber, the oxygen is calibrated to match the volume of the wine. In the second chamber, the oxygen is injected into the wine through a porous ceramic stone located at the bottom of the chamber. The dosage is controlled and can range anywhere from .75 to 3 cubic centimetres per liter of wine. The process normally occurs in multiple treatments that can last anywhere from one or two treatments during the early stages of fermentation (to help avoid stuck fermentation) to a more prolonged treatment during the maturation period that can last four to eight months.

Exposure to oxygen during production may improve wine, but the exposure must be limited: too much oxygen can lead to oxidation while too little can lead to reduction, either one leading to its associated wine faults. In barrel aging, the natural properties of the wood allow for gentle aeration of the wine to occur over a prolonged period. This aids in polymerization of tannin into larger molecules, which could fall out of solution, not promoting protein precipitation in the mouth and thus improving mouth astringency. The process of micro-oxygenation aims to mimic the effects of slow barrel maturation in a shorter period or for lower cost.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microoxygenation#cite_note-Oxford_pg_442-443-1][1][/url] It also enables more control over the process.

Thanks to cecil77 for pointing out that "drop in the tank" devices are available for smaller winemakers. An example is https://aebusa.myshopify.com/products/microsafe.

Thanks for posting that.

That's a description of a large production type winery. There are "drop in the tank" devices now making MicroOx much more widely available to smaller winemakers.

cecil77 said:

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Thanks for posting that.

That's a description of a large production type winery. There are "drop in the tank" devices now making MicroOx much more widely available to smaller winemakers.

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Yes, but I can pretty much assure that the small production high-end producers (at least the ones I buy from) aren't going that direction

I'm pretty sure that many are. It (Micro Ox) has largely lost it's initial bad rep. It's now just one more tool in the winemakers arsenal.

It's being used by most top Bordeaux Chateau and many, many Napa and other very high end makers of all sizes.

Many winemakers don't discuss it or admit it, or any other techniques/methods for that matter. It's a proprietary endeavor for most.

If we've met in person, my apologies for not remembering. I also apologize for whatever I've said/done in the past to piss you off so, as you have several times posted directly to me with this sort of rancor.

I do not understand why you post things like this. I've insulted no one, and cast nothing "libelous" at all about anyone.

You believe whatever you want, we all should.

I stand by my statement and confident it is true.

It's not my place to share (or even surmise) about particular winemaker's methods or practices.

Comments about the wine industry in general is ok.

greenband said:

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Austintm - you are out of line in my opinion. He didn't name any wineries by name so business libel is impossible. cecil77 gave his opinion, which I certainly appreciate on this forum. He adds a ton a value.

I don't agree with every opinion, but this forum suffers when we attack others for no reason.

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It's not an attack. It is a statement. He is directly calling into question the business practices of others in a thinly veiled "I know some are doing it," which is unnecessary. That is an irresponsible statement that should not be made. What Cecil does, and continues to want to do, is make his case for why Texas wines are equal to or better than Napa. I have no problem with him sharing that opinion or believing it.

Stating that small Napa wineries are engaging in a practice that is viewed in a bad light, thus casting aspersion on a broad group of producers, is simply dirty pool.

And had you read my comment correctly (which you didn't), I said IF he named them, and it was not true, it would be libel. Reading comprehension helps.