Son has applied to AF and Naval Academies and wants to be a pilot. If things dont go as planned what are other paths to being a pilot? Do you go to an Aviation College, which ones are good/best? Just wanting to make sure he has a fall back plan just in case.
Path to Becoming a Pilot
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Last: 10 mo ago by D2F1D0
Air National Guard. Go to a tanker unit to build time.
The University of North Dakota has an excellent reputation for aviation-related degrees and earning a pilot's license, including helo and multi-engine certificates.
UND
UND
Apply to USMA as well, lots of aircraft in the Army, they are just rotary-winged.
Does Air Force still give out pilot scholarships? Apply that way and join the Corps at A&M.
Yes, there are several aviation schools that get you a license and a degree. Seems like one of them (Embry-Riddle?) commissions the second most AF officers after A&M.
Don't know if your username means Alpine, Texas, but seems like MIdland College had a program a while back where you had a guaranteed job on graduation.
Does Air Force still give out pilot scholarships? Apply that way and join the Corps at A&M.
Yes, there are several aviation schools that get you a license and a degree. Seems like one of them (Embry-Riddle?) commissions the second most AF officers after A&M.
Don't know if your username means Alpine, Texas, but seems like MIdland College had a program a while back where you had a guaranteed job on graduation.
If he just wants to be a pilot, there are simpler paths that have a more guaranteed path to reach that goal. Going the military route is risky. The physical qualifications to be a pilot in the military are much tougher than in the civilian world. And, in general, it's far more competitive. When the Navy has 100 slots, and 300 applications that all pass the flight physical, and have good grades, etc., they sometimes attrite even very bright candidates.
Now doing it on your own is going to be costlier, but I think the airlines need pilots so bad they're creatine fast track programs for civilians to go through aviation training with scholarships and stuff. Might be something to look into.
I know a kid from high school that went to LeTourneau University. I can't remember what he did there exactly, but I think they have a big aviation program, and now he's an air traffic controller and has his private pilot's license.
Also, the Navy has a lot of helo pilots. As do the Marines. Most of them at one point wanted to be fixed wing pilots, but didn't make the grades in flight school. If he ends up doing helos in the Navy, he'll just need to do some time being a fixed wing instructor at some point to get enough fixed wing hours to be marketable to the airlines.
If I'm not mistaken the Army does not teach all pilots to fly fixed wing like the Navy/Air Force does. Most pick up their fixed wing later, after learning rotary. At least that's what a former black hawk pilot told me.
Now doing it on your own is going to be costlier, but I think the airlines need pilots so bad they're creatine fast track programs for civilians to go through aviation training with scholarships and stuff. Might be something to look into.
I know a kid from high school that went to LeTourneau University. I can't remember what he did there exactly, but I think they have a big aviation program, and now he's an air traffic controller and has his private pilot's license.
Also, the Navy has a lot of helo pilots. As do the Marines. Most of them at one point wanted to be fixed wing pilots, but didn't make the grades in flight school. If he ends up doing helos in the Navy, he'll just need to do some time being a fixed wing instructor at some point to get enough fixed wing hours to be marketable to the airlines.
If I'm not mistaken the Army does not teach all pilots to fly fixed wing like the Navy/Air Force does. Most pick up their fixed wing later, after learning rotary. At least that's what a former black hawk pilot told me.
You have a point, in that the standards are tough, and it's impossible today to predict what the needs of the military will be in 5 years, when he/she is ready to fly.
Way back when I was at A&M, and dinosaurs ruled the earth, I had a friend in the class of '75, who attended A&M on a pilot scholarship. Weeks before graduation, they told him that due to the post-Vietnam RIF, they had no need for him, and he didn't owe them any service obligation.
I also know of a hot shot USFA grad circa 2010, who not only had a pilot slot, but a slot to ENJPT, the joint NATO training in Wichita Falls. Going ENJPT is a guaranteed fighter pilot slot. A few weeks before graduation, the Air Force suddenly decided that some minor medical condition he had, and that they had said was no big deal, back when he was a freshman, was suddenly A Very Big Deal.
Not only did he lose the pilot slot, but that late in the game, all the good jobs were gone, and he had to be a supply officer in Outer Slobbovia.
Way back when I was at A&M, and dinosaurs ruled the earth, I had a friend in the class of '75, who attended A&M on a pilot scholarship. Weeks before graduation, they told him that due to the post-Vietnam RIF, they had no need for him, and he didn't owe them any service obligation.
I also know of a hot shot USFA grad circa 2010, who not only had a pilot slot, but a slot to ENJPT, the joint NATO training in Wichita Falls. Going ENJPT is a guaranteed fighter pilot slot. A few weeks before graduation, the Air Force suddenly decided that some minor medical condition he had, and that they had said was no big deal, back when he was a freshman, was suddenly A Very Big Deal.
Not only did he lose the pilot slot, but that late in the game, all the good jobs were gone, and he had to be a supply officer in Outer Slobbovia.
Thanks for all the info. He has been accepted to Embry Riddle and is contemplating Letourneau we just don't know much about it. I believe ultimately he wants to do military above all and fly. Either Academy is a top priority but if all else fails flying becomes the next thing.
For the academies all he has left is the congressional appointment interview.
For the academies all he has left is the congressional appointment interview.
Driving into work to plan for a local training flight so I'll get you more complete thoughts later.
I'd advise against an "aviation" degree personally. I see no noticeable difference in my peers with one and they have zero fallback if their flying career doesn't pan out.
I'd advise against an "aviation" degree personally. I see no noticeable difference in my peers with one and they have zero fallback if their flying career doesn't pan out.
Don't forget the Coast Guard Academy. They've got fixed wing and rotary.
What degrees are best (or does it matter) if you are wanting to fly? If not at an Academy, Is it more just taking flight training in addition to whatever degree you're getting?
He has ruled out the Coast Guard Academy.
He has ruled out the Coast Guard Academy.
I don't know which degrees are "best", but the UND program I linked above offers several to choose from. Getting a pilot's license is offered as a minor there, so it is in addition to the primary degree. Having an aviation-related degree allows people with a passion for aviation to have a better chance of continuing to work in the field when their flying days are over. If that's the case for your son, I'd think he would want to read up on what's out there and decide which is of most interest.
My nephew is a UND grad. His degree is Airport Management and he took flying as his minor, finishing with a multi-engine license and an instrument certificate. After several years as a flight instructor at UND and then briefly flying for a small company, he now works for John Deere piloting their corporate jets.
My nephew is a UND grad. His degree is Airport Management and he took flying as his minor, finishing with a multi-engine license and an instrument certificate. After several years as a flight instructor at UND and then briefly flying for a small company, he now works for John Deere piloting their corporate jets.
I was going to suggest Embry Riddle.Alpine said:
Thanks for all the info. He has been accepted to Embry Riddle and is contemplating Letourneau we just don't know much about it. I believe ultimately he wants to do military above all and fly. Either Academy is a top priority but if all else fails flying becomes the next thing.
For the academies all he has left is the congressional appointment interview.
If he just wants to fly period, there are firms in Anchorage that will teach you to fly but I understand that you become somewhat of an indentured servant for a few years.
My father served in the Army and instead of using his GI Bill to go to college he used it to go to ground school in Puerto Rico. Spent a lot of time learning to fly in Puerto Rico and Southern California. Then when we moved to Alaska to work on the Trans-Alaska Pipeline in the mid 1970s, he had a lot of opportunity to fly. He became multi-engine commercial rated in Alaska. There's a lot of need and opportunity in Alaska.
The way my dad described learning to fly in Puerto Rico in the late 1960s, early 1970s was that "The Smokers and The Boozers paid for him to learn to fly". He would fly frequently to close by islands so that people in his group could buy smokes and booze duty free.
Unfortunately, after Alaska, we moved to Saudi Arabia and they didn't allow private aviation so my dad lost all of his hours and ratings. Sure was fun while it lasted, flying over glaciers and what not.
What about an RPA pilot?
Just to make sure, is he looking at ROTC if the academies don't work out?
He will still have a good chance of getting a pilot slot going through ROTC.
The Army's Flight Warrant program is another option. He would be a Warrant Officer focused on flying more than leadership initially and be flying helicopters.
He will still have a good chance of getting a pilot slot going through ROTC.
The Army's Flight Warrant program is another option. He would be a Warrant Officer focused on flying more than leadership initially and be flying helicopters.
I had a 20 year career as an Army helicopter pilot, 3+ as a Warrant after my fish year at A&M, came back to A&M and ROTC to get commissioned. Your son can get an ROTC scholarship anywhere, if he's accepted. And he can track aviation if he qualifies. The flight physical is very tough, always has been. IMO he has a better shot at tracking aviation via ROTC than at one of the academies, as it's simply numbers at those schools and at the USAFA for example everyone wants to fly and not everyone can.
After Vietnam the Army WO program became very selective, and you had to have 5 years or more service just to apply. I hear it's harder now. So scratch that unless he wants a 20 year military job.
Bottom line is go ROTC and try and get on the aviation branch track.
FWIW the Army is on track to phase out the Blackhawk in favor of a tilt rotor.
After Vietnam the Army WO program became very selective, and you had to have 5 years or more service just to apply. I hear it's harder now. So scratch that unless he wants a 20 year military job.
Bottom line is go ROTC and try and get on the aviation branch track.
FWIW the Army is on track to phase out the Blackhawk in favor of a tilt rotor.
I'm going to disagree a little with you regarding USAFA. Not everyone wants to fly, and it's about 50/50 between flying and non flying assignments at graduation.
This may be old info, but this was how it was when our kid was a zoomie in 2011
Half of the AFA graduating class are pilots, and they get half the pilot slots given out each year. About 1000 slots, they get 500 and the rest of the ROTC units have to split the other 500.
And when flight school assignments are given, AFA is assigned to the first classes, ROTC has to wait until later in the year
This may be old info, but this was how it was when our kid was a zoomie in 2011
Half of the AFA graduating class are pilots, and they get half the pilot slots given out each year. About 1000 slots, they get 500 and the rest of the ROTC units have to split the other 500.
And when flight school assignments are given, AFA is assigned to the first classes, ROTC has to wait until later in the year
Yes and no on how the year is split.
Zoomies immediately enter active duty and take a 2 month vacation based on leave accrued while "serving" at the Academy. Not really something I agree with or see the merit of but that's a different conversation…then they have to immediately be sent somewhere since they're active. Some go to UPT bases to start quickly, some go to UPT bases to sit causal jobs. Typically admin crap around bases. Others go causal at real bases until they get their training slot for UPT and then PCS there.
ROTC has up to 365 days from when you commission to when you enter active duty. I commissioned in May and arrived at Columbus in August for UPT. My class was about 1/3 ROTC, 1/3 Academy, 1/3 part timers.
My commissioning year group (2018) pretty much everyone that was medical qualified to be a pilot, got a pilot slot. That was after a few years of tightened rated slots (13-16). The pipeline is still forcing as many through as it can but that could be totally different by the time OPs kid is up for a rated board in 26 or 27.
Zoomies immediately enter active duty and take a 2 month vacation based on leave accrued while "serving" at the Academy. Not really something I agree with or see the merit of but that's a different conversation…then they have to immediately be sent somewhere since they're active. Some go to UPT bases to start quickly, some go to UPT bases to sit causal jobs. Typically admin crap around bases. Others go causal at real bases until they get their training slot for UPT and then PCS there.
ROTC has up to 365 days from when you commission to when you enter active duty. I commissioned in May and arrived at Columbus in August for UPT. My class was about 1/3 ROTC, 1/3 Academy, 1/3 part timers.
My commissioning year group (2018) pretty much everyone that was medical qualified to be a pilot, got a pilot slot. That was after a few years of tightened rated slots (13-16). The pipeline is still forcing as many through as it can but that could be totally different by the time OPs kid is up for a rated board in 26 or 27.
Maybe it's a bad sample size…but I've never been impressed by a riddle grad. And it's an odd group of people that self select to spend that much money on an aviation degree, get a PPL, and join the military to redo all that.
If he wants to be a military pilot, get a solid degree that can be a career if it doesn't work out, get good grades and show out during ROTC training/classes to have a strong ranking and it'll take care of itself.
USAF looks more kindly at engineering type degrees but the degree doesn't matter for flight school.
If he just wants to fly, get the cheapest degree possible and find a flight school that has a strong program to take him from PPL to CPL to CFI to IFR to CFII to multi. Then build time getting paid **** to get hired by a regional to still get paid **** to eventually beat me to a major by like 2 years. The commercial only path is an expensive grind without the same kind of high level training or experience a military pilot gets. Plus I have a friend who just had a medical condition pop up that's going to ground him as a civilian right after his multi. That money is all just gone, if he was mil he'd have the option to retrain, would still be getting paid and have insurance. Your mileage may vary.
If he wants to be a military pilot, get a solid degree that can be a career if it doesn't work out, get good grades and show out during ROTC training/classes to have a strong ranking and it'll take care of itself.
USAF looks more kindly at engineering type degrees but the degree doesn't matter for flight school.
If he just wants to fly, get the cheapest degree possible and find a flight school that has a strong program to take him from PPL to CPL to CFI to IFR to CFII to multi. Then build time getting paid **** to get hired by a regional to still get paid **** to eventually beat me to a major by like 2 years. The commercial only path is an expensive grind without the same kind of high level training or experience a military pilot gets. Plus I have a friend who just had a medical condition pop up that's going to ground him as a civilian right after his multi. That money is all just gone, if he was mil he'd have the option to retrain, would still be getting paid and have insurance. Your mileage may vary.
Good posts CB17. As I said, I was telling how it appeared to shake out in 2011, filtered through "what I heard" and 12 years of fading memories. I will say that when My Favorite Pilot was a FAIP, she indicated there was a definite order that various groups went through SUPT
And as you said, one never knows what the "needs of the Air Force" will be in a year, much less 4-5. And no one knows what their medical status will be in that time.
As you probably recall, My Favorite Pilot had a severe car crash at the end of her FAIP tour, before she could go to B school for the 16. She was out of the cockpit for 18 months. Because the AF was so desperately short of pilots, especially fighter pilots, they let her fly again
She has zero doubt, that had there been a pilot surplus, she would have been medically retired
Always, always, always have a fall back plan.
And as you said, one never knows what the "needs of the Air Force" will be in a year, much less 4-5. And no one knows what their medical status will be in that time.
As you probably recall, My Favorite Pilot had a severe car crash at the end of her FAIP tour, before she could go to B school for the 16. She was out of the cockpit for 18 months. Because the AF was so desperately short of pilots, especially fighter pilots, they let her fly again
She has zero doubt, that had there been a pilot surplus, she would have been medically retired
Always, always, always have a fall back plan.
Just a crusty CW2 Blackhawk pilot here. This was my own personal experience and I have no knowledge of academies or other branches.
WOFT does not require prior service to apply. In fact, my WOCS class was half prior service and half street-to-seat. I have a degree from A&M but there was a good 7 year gap from when I graduated to when I joined the Army. In my WOCS class, no one was prior aviation (except crew members), including the street-to-seat candidates.
There are other non-degree paths that he can choose from too. Albeit, they are expensive. ATP Flight School is an option that will take someone from 0 time to a CFII and allow them to teach while building enough time to apply to airlines.
The program I'm currently in is a flight school in partnership with a community college. Same idea applies with their CFIIs.
I liked that you mentioned LeTourneau, I'm a Longview native so this made me happy.
WOFT does not require prior service to apply. In fact, my WOCS class was half prior service and half street-to-seat. I have a degree from A&M but there was a good 7 year gap from when I graduated to when I joined the Army. In my WOCS class, no one was prior aviation (except crew members), including the street-to-seat candidates.
There are other non-degree paths that he can choose from too. Albeit, they are expensive. ATP Flight School is an option that will take someone from 0 time to a CFII and allow them to teach while building enough time to apply to airlines.
The program I'm currently in is a flight school in partnership with a community college. Same idea applies with their CFIIs.
I liked that you mentioned LeTourneau, I'm a Longview native so this made me happy.
As of right now, pilots can leave Rucker as a fixed wing pilot. They first have to learn rotary, then may be given the option to select fixed wing based on two criteria: there are slot available as per congressional allotment for that class (selection is every two weeks and it changes from each selection which airframe is available) and two, they have to be high enough on the OML (Order of Merit List) to get a top selection.bigtruckguy3500 said:
If I'm not mistaken the Army does not teach all pilots to fly fixed wing like the Navy/Air Force does. Most pick up their fixed wing later, after learning rotary. At least that's what a former black hawk pilot told me.
When I was at Rucker (2016-2018), the slots were only for Active Duty. However, the Reserves still have and will retain fixed wing units. Active duty may be phasing their fixed wing assets out or maybe already have.
The active duty, flight school selection route is very tricky but works out for some people.
What's the plan when the Army starts phasing out the Blackhawks?Pirate04 said:As of right now, pilots can leave Rucker as a fixed wing pilot. They first have to learn rotary, then may be given the option to select fixed wing based on two criteria: there are slot available as per congressional allotment for that class (selection is every two weeks and it changes from each selection which airframe is available) and two, they have to be high enough on the OML (Order of Merit List) to get a top selection.bigtruckguy3500 said:
If I'm not mistaken the Army does not teach all pilots to fly fixed wing like the Navy/Air Force does. Most pick up their fixed wing later, after learning rotary. At least that's what a former black hawk pilot told me.
When I was at Rucker (2016-2018), the slots were only for Active Duty. However, the Reserves still have and will retain fixed wing units. Active duty may be phasing their fixed wing assets out or maybe already have.
The active duty, flight school selection route is very tricky but works out for some people.
Go ask all the OH-58 pilots
Funny story here about LeTourneau. Way back in the early 80's, I'm a USN LT. T-2 Instructor, Beeville. This USMC 2ndLT comes in for his FAM 1, first hop ever in a jet. FAM 1 was a "freebie". ungraded, I did a lot of the flying, just to get the guy used to the fast paced environment. This kid was short, freckle faced, looked to be about 12 years old, and he had a chipped tooth which made him look like Alfred E. Newman. So in the brief I ask him where he grew up, where he went to college, he says "LeTourneau College Sir". I says " LeWHAT? Where in the hell is that"? " Longview, Texas Sir"Pirate04 said:
Just a crusty CW2 Blackhawk pilot here. This was my own personal experience and I have no knowledge of academies or other branches.
WOFT does not require prior service to apply. In fact, my WOCS class was half prior service and half street-to-seat. I have a degree from A&M but there was a good 7 year gap from when I graduated to when I joined the Army. In my WOCS class, no one was prior aviation (except crew members), including the street-to-seat candidates.
There are other non-degree paths that he can choose from too. Albeit, they are expensive. ATP Flight School is an option that will take someone from 0 time to a CFII and allow them to teach while building enough time to apply to airlines.
The program I'm currently in is a flight school in partnership with a community college. Same idea applies with their CFIIs.
I liked that you mentioned LeTourneau, I'm a Longview native so this made me happy.
Now wait a minute, I wasn't from Texas, but my mom was born and raised in Henderson, just down the road. I had tons of kinfolk in and around Longview, but I had NEVER heard of La Whatever College.
So we go off on our hop. I did the TO, we got to altitude, I showed him some stuff, let him toss it around to get some feel, then we go back to the Field for some bounces. I do the first pass, show him how to fly the ball, then I let him fly the 2nd pass. And Alfred E. Newman proceeds to fly the most beautiful centered ball pass I'd ever seen. Every other FAM 1 (including me) was all over the sky, snakes in the cockpit. So I says "Do that again!" So he comes around and does it again, as good or better than me, and I had a Fleet Tour under my belt. We land, debrief...of course I ask him if he ever flew before...Nothing NADA. So I told Alfred E. that I didn't think that was just dumb luck.
Alfred E. Newman, from LaTourneau College wound up a squadron mate of my brother in the USMC!
OldArmyCT said:What's the plan when the Army starts phasing out the Blackhawks?Pirate04 said:As of right now, pilots can leave Rucker as a fixed wing pilot. They first have to learn rotary, then may be given the option to select fixed wing based on two criteria: there are slot available as per congressional allotment for that class (selection is every two weeks and it changes from each selection which airframe is available) and two, they have to be high enough on the OML (Order of Merit List) to get a top selection.bigtruckguy3500 said:
If I'm not mistaken the Army does not teach all pilots to fly fixed wing like the Navy/Air Force does. Most pick up their fixed wing later, after learning rotary. At least that's what a former black hawk pilot told me.
When I was at Rucker (2016-2018), the slots were only for Active Duty. However, the Reserves still have and will retain fixed wing units. Active duty may be phasing their fixed wing assets out or maybe already have.
The active duty, flight school selection route is very tricky but works out for some people.
I don't make those decisions or plans but I can tell you, the Reserves will be the last to phase out the Blackhawks.
Can confirm
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30 years in the Biz, Civilian side.
Get a degree in something he can do as a Plan B, side hustle, or Plan A if, make that when, Aviation gets stupid again. Whether that be from the Academy or Civilian College.
Start the private license now, it will take some of the gee whiz out of it, just remember when he is getting taught by the Academy types to never utter, much less think, the phrase "when I started on my Private, we did it xxx way".
I taught at a Pilot factory way back in the day, and it was good for me, but I'm not a fan of ER as I'm not sure they are good for Plan B stuff.
Get a degree in something he can do as a Plan B, side hustle, or Plan A if, make that when, Aviation gets stupid again. Whether that be from the Academy or Civilian College.
Start the private license now, it will take some of the gee whiz out of it, just remember when he is getting taught by the Academy types to never utter, much less think, the phrase "when I started on my Private, we did it xxx way".
I taught at a Pilot factory way back in the day, and it was good for me, but I'm not a fan of ER as I'm not sure they are good for Plan B stuff.
Quote:
Start the private license now, it will take some of the gee whiz out of it, just remember when he is getting taught by the Academy types to never utter, much less think, the phrase "when I started on my Private, we did it xxx way".
MFP did initial screening at Pueblo, CO, I don't know if they still do that. Took her through solo in Diamond 2-place piston trainer at Doss Aviation.
I don't recall if it was her class, or simply a story she was told, but they claimed that some civilian CFIs failed out of screening due to total inability to quit doing things they way they learned as a civilian, and instead do things the Air Force way.
I agree, it's great to get some hours in to get the feel for the plane, and make sure you enjoy flying. But you'd better be ready to adapt the military way of doing things.
Captain Sully of "Miracle on the Hudson" is a good example of a guy that was able to make the transition. I think he started flying gliders at 14.
I showed up to day 1 of my military aviation career with 0.0 hours.
Experience desired, not required.
Experience desired, not required.
As did MFPCharlieBrown17 said:
I showed up to day 1 of my military aviation career with 0.0 hours.
It's why I made the point of thinking the Civ way is THE way. Same applies to airline jobs. Current airline way is THE only way.
It's always a little humbling to hear dudes say they've been flying literally long than I've been alive.
Or as a 2LT showing up to an Infantry company and have an E6 tell me their boots have more time in Afghanistan longer than I've been in the Army.
Great to here it's in all branches.
Great to here it's in all branches.
I keep thinking I'm younger, then I do the math.
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