Congress wants the Army to drop the ACFT and go back to the APFT

6,263 Views | 33 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by maverick2076
MarathonAg12
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Hell nah. I finally got the events down and they want to go back?

I hated the APFT. The new ACFT is a lot more enjoyable for the Soldiers and I find it more motivating. Think of all the ACFT fields we created and all the equipment we just purchased to conduct those events.....millions.

Oh and we are on the ACFT 3.0 because of congress and their inability to stay out of this event.


"On Friday, the Senate Armed Services Committee released its draft summary of the must-pass National Defense Authorization Act, or NDAA, which sets funding and policy priorities for the Pentagon. The draft directs the Army to restore the previous Army Physical Fitness Test, or APFT. On top of that, it would require the service to develop the test for three years, a move that could sideline graded fitness tests for a soldier's record, with two years for a pilot program and another year to finalize standards."

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2023/06/26/congress-move-scrap-acft-sparks-outcry-army-leadership.html
OldArmyCT
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AG
You can hold an outfit PT test that includes sit ups, push ups, and a 2 mile run for dang near free. And get a good idea of your troops' fitness. Or you can spend a lot of money buying equipment and training trainers and teaching the troops how to take the test and then find a place to store everything and have half of your people fail, some of whom are in. pretty good shape compared to civilians. Some bored staff rat came up with the new test because his bored bosses decided the Army needed one. Never wish for a new general when you have the old one figured out.
MarathonAg12
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That's my point. We finally have it dialed in after 3 years of growing pains. All that just to say "nvm guys, Congress says this isn't working out".

Everything is awesomeeeee!
JABQ04
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AG
Thank god my DD-214 protects me from the BS now
MarathonAg12
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I got 9 more years

I'm thinking 2 uniform changes ( I got the AGSUs last year) and 2 more APFT changes and one more conflict
maverick2076
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The last NDAA contained requirements for a more difficult standard or test that is also gender neutral for combat arms MOS's. That was supposed to be enacted by the end of this month. I haven't seen anything on that recently.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2023/02/15/more-changes-brewing-embattled-army-fitness-test.html

ETA:

It looks like the Army decided to blow off the intent of the law's wording and not change the ACFT. I would bet that this push is a little Congressional payback for being ignored.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2023/04/26/army-fitness-test-wont-get-gender-tweaks-despite-lawmaker-concerns.html/amp
JABQ04
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AG
T&Ps
MarathonAg12
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It's been changed 3 times to make it more gender neutral. At conception, it was suppose to be this badass ACFT that held everyone to the same standard.

Then they realized that the females failed leg ticks across the board, so then they made the alternative event being the plank then on the 3.0 ACFT, we have leg tucks eliminated and plank only.

Our unit executes it greatly right now and it's a well oiled machine.

Please stop with the changes
maverick2076
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I was perfectly fine with the ACFT…until they dropped leg tucks for planks, removed the MOS tiers, and added gender-differentiated scoring. There is nothing gender neutral about the ACFT now. The changes didn't make it gender neutral, they made it easier so females could pass, and then lowered the standards for females so they could have better scores.

I do enjoy taking the ACFT more than the APFT, even if it is more of a PITA to schedule, set up, and administer. But the gender-differentiated standards are just as much of a joke as the APFT standards were.
MarathonAg12
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Ah, long day for me.

I meant that it started gender neutral then became more conforming to individual needs

bigtruckguy3500
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I remembered seeing a reserve unit doing the ACFT when I was at one of the gyms at Camp Pendleton. Looked like they brought a lot of their own equipment. Always wondered what they did with it the rest of the year, and which congressmen got those companies in their district lucrative contracts for the equipment.

I totally get it, the regular old pushups, situps, run, doesn't encompass all aspects of fitness that you need to be a good soldier/sailor/airman/marine. But it does a reasonable job looking at overall fitness. Commanders should be ensuring their units are training for the mission they face. A tanker doesn't need to have the best cardiovascular fitness, but regular infantry probably does.

The Marine CFT isn't bad. At least all they really use are cones and ammo cans.

Navy just moved to planks instead of situps.
Smeghead4761
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Politically, you can't make any sort of physical fitness test gender neutral because it will be "unfair" to females. This is because the average male is stronger, faster, and has better cardio-respiratory endurance than the average female. thus, if you make a physical fitness test truly gender neutral, you will get one of two results:

1) Large numbers of females fail the test.
2) If you set the passing scores low enough that most females can pass, the males will all have *much* higher scores than the females.

(Now, it would seem to me that making the whole thing Pass/Fail would solve your problem in scenario #2, but what do I know?)

I was in the Army from 1996-2016. I remember hearing that Big Army wanted to change the APFT at least as far back as 2001. IMO, this particular version, particularly the gender neutral scoring, was a response to the Obama admin mandating allowing females into combat arms.
ArmyAg2002
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AG
I've got 3 soldiers that are attending ALC in August. ALC wants a PT test within 60 days of the class start date. My guys took their ACFT in May, so all 3 need another PT test. It used to be I would grab a couple of NCOs and we would spend an hour one morning getting this knocked out. Instead I have to schedule a space, schedule the equipment and spend a lot more time getting the test run. Thankfully all are full time National Guard so it reduces the scheduling headache.
maverick2076
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ArmyAg2002 said:

I've got 3 soldiers that are attending ALC in August. ALC wants a PT test within 60 days of the class start date. My guys took their ACFT in May, so all 3 need another PT test. It used to be I would grab a couple of NCOs and we would spend an hour one morning getting this knocked out. Instead I have to schedule a space, schedule the equipment and spend a lot more time getting the test run. Thankfully all are full time National Guard so it reduces the scheduling headache.


The NCOES PT timeframe requirement is a pain. Especially since they are going to conduct the ACFT there anyways.
ArmyAg2002
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AG
Exactly
MarathonAg12
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I'm on team ACFT!

All about the Soldiers. The morale and overall vibe of the ACFT turns into a competition.

The APFT was just a crap ton of waiting in line, "turn the other way", everyone is miserable then watch the officers go for a run.

maverick2076
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Honestly, I wish they would eliminate the ACFT requirement from NCOES. We already have a standard for how often the ACFT should be completed. You get flagged if you don't, and flagged soldiers can't go to school. That should be good enough. You shouldn't have to take an additional ACFT at school. It's a waste of time.
ArmyAg2002
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AG
Can't do that. It would be using common sense.
PanzerAggie06
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As a company XO I convinced my CO to try a new program for the APFT. The first work day of the month we held a voluntary PT test. Those who scored 280 (not including officers or NCOs higher than E5) or higher were excused from PT for that month. If they wanted to continue having their time off they'd have to take the PT test again on the first business day. Within 6 months our company had the best overall PT score in the division, 3ID.

A new brigade CO put an end to my program as, in his words, "PT is sacred LT. ****ing sacred". Our PT scores plummeted.
MarathonAg12
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That kind of leadership is why many good junior officers end up getting out.

I think your 280-300, is a great incentive.

I spent some time on the SOF side of the house and it was much better. We conducted PT on our own and in civilians. Everyone go to focus on their own goals and we still killed the PT test.
JABQ04
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AG
And NCOs. Archaic mentality and babysitting grown ass men killed any motivation to stay in.
Aggie Infantry
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The Army's PT test should be:

1. Stand on a scale.
2. Put 20% of your body weight into a ruck sack.
3. Make a 5-mile forced march that ends on a rifle range (or pistol for officers.
4. Qualify with your weapon.

The percentages, distance, and time can be discussed.

I don't care how fat your ass is, if you can hump a ruck and shoot the enemy, you are good to go.
When the truth comes out, do not ask me how I knew.
Ask yourself why you did not.
maverick2076
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JABQ04 said:

And NCOs. Archaic mentality and babysitting grown ass men killed any motivation to stay in.


The only reason I've stayed in is that the unit I'm assigned to avoids so much childish bull*****
Iraq2xVeteran
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AG
A unit can hold the APFT test that includes 2 minutes of pushups, 2 minutes of sit-ups, and a 2-mile run anywhere for free. Also, that test provides a good snapchat of a soldier's fitness.
MarathonAg12
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We've spent years fine tuning the ACFT. Finding land, equipment and training NCOs/Officers on how to conduct the ACFT. My Soldiers are stronger and in better shape because training for the ACFT is a full body work out, a true test of fitness.

I can train for an APFT two weeks before the test and crush it. Very generic test.

I'm over congress meddling with this test. We're on the ACFT 3.0 now.
maverick2076
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I like the ACFT better. I think in many ways it is a better indicator of overall fitness. However, I think it is a whole lot easier to do the minimum and pass the ACFT than the old APFT. It is a lot harder to excel, however. In the long term, I'm not sure if that leads to a force that is actually more fit, or just one that has a higher passing percentage.
Green2Maroon
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MarathonAg12 said:


I'm over congress meddling with this test. We're on the ACFT 3.0 now.

This. Why shouldn't the Army be able to set its own standards? I understand that some members of Congress are veterans, and I applaud that, but serving soldiers should be the ones to decide what is required.
WBBQ74
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Old enough to remember the 6 event PT test with the crab crawl, monkey bars, runs, etc. Then the push in the mid 70's for the Tanker's PT test with rolling a road wheel around a baseball diamond, shuttle run with tank tracks, high porting a tank round, etc. Then there were years where no PT tests were required. Then the APFT with the 2 mile run, pushups, situps. That was a response to being able to do it anywhere for free.

Then there was the height/weight deal with the tape, etc. I was always of the opinion if they sold uniforms in the PX that you could fit into AND you passed a yearly PT test, who cares what you weigh. The fat boy program ran off some decent soldiers.

As an old retired guy I have no idea what a ACPT is, and I don't care. Bad ideas in the military always come back around over time. There are other DoD issues to resolve before the next SHTF moment.
MarathonAg12
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They just adjusted the Tape Policy.

The new tape test will require tape testing for all soldiers, who will be measured around the waist, according to the Army directive announced June 12. Previously, the Army for decades has determined soldiers' body fat by measuring a man's neck and abdomen or a woman's neck, waist and hips.

What are y'all's thoughts?
JABQ04
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AG
Just measuring the waist? What's considered acceptable v non acceptable?
MarathonAg12
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Here's the new directive.


https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN38535-ARMY_DIR_2023-11-000-WEB-1.pdf


JABQ04
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Sorry, I meant what measurement is considered passing? 34"? 36"? I'm assuming it's based on height as well?
MarathonAg12
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Depends on your height. That's just too much to for me to transfer here.

But I have maxed APFT tests and always get taped. I literally got a 300 and was in the tape line. Short stalky dudes nightmare
maverick2076
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Doesn't appear to care about height anymore. Only age, gender, weight, and waist circumference.
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