quote:

---

I've never worn a khaki shirt without using shirt stays and military creases

---

Of course that makes sense, sir. That is the way the uniform is supposed to be worn. I've never considered using shirt stays "pulling a tuck"...I've always considered using a suck strap "pulling a tuck".

quote:

---

And I stand by my assertion on integrated outfits - on average, they look less sharp than all male ones. That isn't to say that there aren't exceptions on both sides.

---

Integration definitely had a huge impact on my outfit. It's a shell of it's former self. Maybe a topic for another thread.

quote:

---

Integration definitely had a huge impact on my outfit. It's a shell of it's former self. Maybe a topic for another thread.

---

Since we share the same former outfit start it, and I'll be happy to chime in.

Do we know each other?

Not directly, no. But from your responses on another thread I assumed that you were an Animal c/o '98.

I was there from fall '00 to spring '04, and it was during that time that JVA let the wags take over the outfit in the name of AA and PC.

Whoa, wait...Animal A was INTEGRATED?

Didn't that happen when 97 were fish? Chick ended up a Marine if I'm correct...she was squared away.

[This message has been edited by Fly Army 97 (edited 12/19/2010 12:58p).]

A-1 was force integrated with the Class of '97 in 1993. I think that there were only two females and when I arrived in ‘94 only one was there as a Pisshead. She finished, but spent her Butt & Zip year on staff. I was always under the impression that the upperclassmen hated her, but she persevered. I heard a while back that she eventually ended up in the Marines.

When I was at my new student conference I went to the Corps recruiting night at the Corps Center. I had already chosen A-1 because of the ties to my hometown that many of the upperclassmen had. When cadets in the Corps Center asked me what outfit I was joining they would always respond with "you know that A-1 is integrated right?" To be honest I thought they were referring to race and not chicks.

My class, '98, started with 5 females and 31 males if I remember correctly. Female #1 had a full ride ROTC scholarship. She quit before FOW was over and actually left A&M immediately. Female #2, the cute one, quit about 5 weeks into school. Female #3, the cute one's friend, quit two weeks later. They both realized that it wasn't for them. Female #4 was a complete bag of crap that stayed for our entire freshman year. She refused to participate and even cried when we would force her to take her turn at blowing calls before formation. We did everything we could to remind her that she was pitiful and we wanted her out. Fortunately, she decided to not come back as a pisshead. Female #5 was actually pretty decent. She knew her stuff and was squared away. She had to leave the Corps as a junior due to personal issues unrelated to being a cadet.

In 1994 A-1 was over a 100 cadets strong. They were marching about 35 when I last saw them 2 years ago. In my opinion integration weakened the company in several ways.

• Increased scrutiny from The Trigon - When you have bulls galore making sure everyone is okay and no one is getting their feelings hurt on an almost daily basis you start to lose some of the toughness and pain that you can normally get away with.
• The rest of the Corps shuns you – Non-integrated units absolutely looked down on integrated units. This was extremely evident around Bonfire. We busted our ass at cut & stack and I always felt that we were denied perimeter pole due to integration. Just my opinion.
• Forced PC – When I was a Zip about 5% of the Corps was female. However, I believe that more than 20% of the leadership positions were filled by females. Keeping your comments PC is hard for a lot of us to do as well.

Personally, I’m not opposed to the concept integration. I will say that it wasn’t a success in the time I was in the Corps. The standards have to be the same for everyone and it appears that the standards have been dropping for the Corps for the last 20 years. It definitely dropped between from 1994-1998.

Who’s to blame? Everyone I guess. The Trigon for forcing it, GVA for watering it down, cadets for not accepting it, some females for not being up to snuff and coasting through anyway.

Flame away.

Mooch, the watering down started with Hopgood my freshman (your junior) year.

quote:

---

Female #4 was a complete bag of crap that stayed for our entire freshman year.

---

I know what that's like. Was she "gimp" all the time?

quote:

---

Who’s to blame?...cadets for not accepting it,

---

You know one thing cadets just aren't good at is adapting. One thing I noticed when new constraints were placed on the Corps, training time, or a specific unit, is that COs would just complain about it. For one example, when they cut training time by 1-2 sessions, depending on the outfit, the dumb COs just complained about it and went about training as normal except minus those two sessions. The smart COs, few and far between, adapted and learned how to squeeze more into each session.

My understanding is that there were administrators going above Hopgood's head, reinstating cadets he kicked out without even notifying him. Also, GVA actually started implementing and enforcing Height/Weight and PFT standards. As bad as it has been with fat bodies the past few years, GVA's staff was gradually turning up the heat on them. At least that's my understanding. I know a lot of you are gonna call out GVA for being PC and not just kicking them out straight up (I know I used to), but you gotta keep in mind that change takes time and he also had to work between constraints of big donors and A&M administrators.

Were I the Commandant and some "bigwigs" tried that crap (reinstating cadets I had removed), I would have no problem "biting the hand that feeds me" and going straight to both the papers and Cadet Command.

quote:

---

Mooch, the watering down started with Hopgood my freshman (your junior) year.

---

You're right. When that SOB cancelled March to the Brazos because it was raining you knew things were going to crap.

I think the only true MTTB we had my entire 4 years was 1997-1998.

The remark made from the A-1 fighter about the wag that quit after her fish year, and how she cried and didn't participate is reason one for there to be separate outfits for women and men.
We had upperclassmen during runs that would yell at the wags that fell out of runs. Funny thing is that one of those upperclassmen now has a daughter in the Corps.
I'll never forget my fish year and I volunteered to be whistle jock for the first week. At the end of the week, I was terrified and was happy to get rid of the job. My buddies had this idea that they would all pay me $10 a week each and i'd be whistle jock all semester. Yes it would of been $160 a week, but i literally started crying and threatened to quit the Corps if they made me do it. That's how bad the job was in my day. They all had a good laugh. Of those 16 fish, only 7 of us made it all 4 years.
During those 4 years we won Hochmuth our fish year, and Moore and Hochmuth our zip year, getting to only keep the Moore.
Oh and suck straps were no problem in my day.

Mooch,

35 might be pushing it. From fall '00 - spring '04, I believe that we marched close to 70. My fish class started with 36, with five or six wags in there. Two of them finished, and one ended up as 1st Batt commander our zip year. She was squared away, but she was also almost 30 years old by the time we marched our final pass.

Fraternization is the biggest problem that I witnessed in an integrated outfit.and an integrated Corps. I know of several instances of hookups within a class. I also know of at least three instances where there were inappropriate relations between fish and upperclassmen within the outfit and the corps as a whole.

You can get quite the rep around the quad when your buddies or fish are ****ing half of the corps. As bad as it was with a few of the A-1 wags, nothing will ever top the C-2 cock fish. That was just flat out ridiculous, and another reason that outfit integration is a terrible idea all around.



[This message has been edited by jh0400 (edited 12/20/2010 10:32a).]

quote:

---

You're right. When that SOB cancelled March to the Brazos because it was raining you knew things were going to crap.

---

Wasn't this the year of the March To The Polo Fields?



And I'm pretty sure I'm going to know you too Mooch! I'm good friends with the majority of your peepee-meanies. We were satellited to y'all's dorm when I was a fish.

quote:

---

nothing will ever top the C-2 cock fish. That was just flat out ridiculous, and another reason that outfit integration is a terrible idea all around.

---

Interesting you should bring that up. The year prior, "Flight of the Great Pumpkin" was banned by the POS PNS. When they did it anyway, every zip was kicked out of the outfit.

quote:

---

Interesting you should bring that up. The year prior, "Flight of the Great Pumpkin" was banned by the POS PNS. When they did it anyway, every zip was kicked out of the outfit.

---

That sucks, but having a wag fish that is "servicing" half of the pissheads in the Corps is on another level.

There were rumors that the deputy Corps Commander my fish year did just that while in the Cav when she was an underclassman.

quote:

---

Wasn't this the year of the March To The Polo Fields?

---

It was and it was a complete joke. Big step in the poonification of the Corps.

quote:

---

There were rumors that the deputy Corps Commander my fish year did just that while in the Cav when she was an underclassman

---

I would say that those were just rumors. She was actually a pretty squared away cadet and from what I could tell a decent girl. I was in the same battalion with her. Being cute and in the Cav opens up the opportunity for rumors.

What was the reasoning behind killing the Great Pumpkin?

FoxtrotDuece - What company were you in?


Me missing the plainly obvious?

[This message has been edited by Mooch98 (edited 12/20/2010 1:11p).]

quote:

---

FoxtrotDuece - What company were you in?

---

I didn't see a "winky face" in your posting, but I sure hope you're trying to be funny!







Rudder gave every appearance of being an Aggie of the old school, with old-school ties, loyalties, traditions and basic conservatism." - "A Centennial History of Texas A&M", Vol II, pg 556

quote:

---

Yes it would of been $160 a week, but i literally started crying and threatened to quit the Corps if they made me do it.

---

Moth - I sure hope you're a former WAG! If so, I find your POV regarding the need for at least one all female outfit refreshing.







Rudder gave every appearance of being an Aggie of the old school, with old-school ties, loyalties, traditions and basic conservatism." - "A Centennial History of Texas A&M", Vol II, pg 556

quote:

---

FoxtrotDeuce - What company were you in?

---

Really?

REALLY?


Yep, you're Animal A through and through, aren't-cha?

I keed. I keed.

And since you provided the set up......

F-2, WHAT'S IT TO YA SNAKE!!!!

quote:

---

Didn't that happen when 97 were fish? Chick ended up a Marine if I'm correct...she was squared away.

---

And Boozer....I wouldn't say that was when A-1 got "integrated". She was meaner than you were. Soooo, I don't think it should count!

quote:

---

I would have no problem "biting the hand that feeds me" and going straight to both the papers and Cadet Command.

---

Commandant of Cadets at A&M is under the VP of Student Services. It is not in the ROTC chain of command.

Lots of problems because of that.

quote:

---

I would say that those were just rumors. She was actually a pretty squared away cadet and from what I could tell a decent girl. I was in the same battalion with her. Being cute and in the Cav opens up the opportunity for rumors.

What was the reasoning behind killing the Great Pumpkin?

---

Let me answer in order.

1. I know her as well. Her accent was AWESOME. I still remember as a fish pulling guardroom and she comes walking through, takes off her suckstrap and starts slapping her hand saying, "Awlllraaahhtt, whooze been bayaaad.." Pulling her boots that day was the highlight of my week. I suspect the reason that there were so many rumors about her was because she was HOT.

2. Col. Sachtleben, the Professor of Naval Science, decided to end flight of the great pumpkin because he considered it an affront to good order and discipline. Keep in mind that this was the same guy who not only tried to get the Navy/USMC ROTC students detached from the rest of the corps (which Hopgood denied every time), but the same guy who punched his freshman year before going Marine PMC. He was hell-bent on undermining the Corps from the moment he arrived. Not sure how long he lasted as the PNS, but I suspect it wasn't more than a year or two.

[This message has been edited by CGSC Lobotomy (edited 12/20/2010 2:19p).]

quote:

---

Commandant of Cadets at A&M is under the VP of Student Services. It is not in the ROTC chain of command.

Lots of problems because of that.

---

I'm aware of that. However, Cadet Command can lobby to remove A&M's SMC status, so they have more than a little bit of pull.

Re: deputy...those are jacked up rumors. I consider her as much (if not more) of a straight arrow CT as anyone I know. I'd ask to remove her name, but there aren't many female deputies.

I know the rumors weren't true. She got a lot of flack just because there were folks out there who were jealous of her leadership ability and her success...and because she was way out of their league.

Also, the deputy my junior year was also female and also an Army Officer..though not NEARLY as squared away (or attractive) as your classmate.

[This message has been edited by CGSC Lobotomy (edited 12/20/2010 2:18p).]

Yea, I can see that. As you can see I'm trying to knock out my Crucible paper but obviously distracted. I'm ready to get back to a unit.

[This message has been edited by Fly Army 97 (edited 12/20/2010 2:19p).]

For my crucible paper, I used the year between when I proposed to my wife and when we got married...having to plan a wedding in Dallas while I'm in Baghdad and she's in Germany...and all of the pain and suffering that took place throughout that year. Got a 95. Crucible Experience doesn't necessarily have to be something related to an event in the Army...unless your prof is a dick about it.

[This message has been edited by CGSC Lobotomy (edited 12/20/2010 2:21p).]

FWIW, I'd send you some pointers, but I have to be careful. They consider almost any outside help plaigarism. Just wait until you do 3 months straight of GAAT!

I will say though, that the electives are the best part of CGSC.

I'm good on the pointers...it isn't any harder than graduate school at this point.

All my profs are really cool. My SA is Navy, and we seem to get a good solution while many other SG are toying around with the perfect COA. I'm very lucky. Just finished our Corps exercise...course we had a baby on day one. 10 days off.


[This message has been edited by Fly Army 97 (edited 12/20/2010 2:27p).]