What is your preference on a new build from dirt? It is an upgrade to zoysia ( and I assume St Aug). It's a few grand so not a trivial cost. I've only had Bermuda in Dfw previously.

The only trees are whatever we add, i.e., no shade to start. The home faces north/northwest, in Frisco. There will be a salt water pool if that makes a difference on sod hardiness.

No kids, but there will be dogs.

NOT Bermuda

Zoysia is nice and slow growing, but will not hold up to traffic as well as Bermuda and is slow to recover from damage. It is more shade tolerant than Bermuda if you will eventually have trees.

I don't know if I would consider St. Augustine. It's thirsty, does not hold up to traffic well, disease prone, etc. The common Bermuda hybrids out there today are true turf grasses and are very hardy, but are also the most maintenance intensive of the three to keep looking good. However, I think a nicely maintained Bermuda lawn is the best looking of those three. It depends on how much you like doing the yard (or pay someone to do the yard). Really need to mow Bermuda hybrids every 3-4 days during peak growing seasons (and as short as possible) to keep it looking its best.

Of course, there are quite a few varieties to pick from that have different traits. Depends on what you are looking for.

Zoysia is great so long as you don't have medium to large size dogs.

Shade?

There are two types of Zoysia with many varieties that all have their pros and cons. One type looks similar to St. Augustine and the other type looks more like Bermuda. If you mention the exact type and variety, you will get better answers.

If you are building in Frisco and following their crazy rules about how many trees you must have - then think about how long you think you will be there.
I have a house in Frisco facing North and am a "Turfgrass Professional". Bemuda was fine in my front yard for the first 10 years (been there 20 this year). We have 3 giant trees (18"-20" caliper) in the front/side yard and I have slowly transitioned to Palisades zoyzia. The zoyzia mixes with the existing bermuda with each growing where it out-competes the other.
All that being said, I prefer zoyzia. Stick with the wider bladed varieties - El Toro, Palisades, Zeon (kind of in between). I find the finer bladed zoyzias - Emerald, Cavalier, etc -don't look great unless you really keep your mower sharp. The blades are really tough and will tear and look bad with a dull mower.

Feel free to ask any more questions.

Thank you all for your help and input.

TM - I don't know what varieties I have to choose from but I'll find out. Thank you for your assistance and I'll likely be pinging you again within the next couple of weeks.

no problem. Happy to help.

I have emerald zoysia in Houston. In the front yard it looks absolutely amazing, full sun. Backyard is more of a challenge as it is shaded more. I aerated a month or so ago and it seems to have helped.

If you don't upgrade, stick with St. A. Bermuda is THIRSTY and St. A when healthy and full, is practically weed-proof.

We had take all root rot in our backyard (St. Augustine) so we replaced our whole backyard....

We chose to go with Zoysia and LOVE it so far. It is a beautiful color and has filled in nicely. We don't have a ton of traffic on it so can't speak to how it would hold up with dogs, playing football, etc.

We have St. Augustine still in the front. We noticed the take-all disease there but we treated it early enough and we are good so leaving it alone.

In my future home...i would probably do Zoysia or honestly would strongly consider an artificial especially in the backyard...

bco2003 said:

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helgs said:

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If you don't upgrade, stick with St. A. Bermuda is THIRSTY and St. A when healthy and full, is practically weed-proof.

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I may be reading this wrong, but Bermuda is very drought tolerant. St Augustine is the thirsty one, requiring twice as much watering than Bermuda.

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Yep. I've had both. Yes, St. Augustine is better at limiting weed growth, but that's about it. It requires more water, is more prone to be affected by disease and insects, and is horrible with foot traffic. If you have large pets or young kids, I would avoid it. Bermuda does take a little more work with regards to weeds, but I would go with that any day and every day over St. Augustine. No question for me.

Bermuda or zoysia....avoid St. Augustine.

is planting bermuda up against a neighbors yard that has st augustine, i would recommend some type of edging or other method to mitigate the st augustine runners invading your yard. its a real PITA once it gets established.

Architelico said:

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is planting bermuda up against a neighbors yard that has st augustine, i would recommend some type of edging or other method to mitigate the st augustine runners invading your yard. its a real PITA once it gets established.

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I have the same question for Zoysia - if I put Zoysia in up against bermuda, would the bermuda invade?

Adam Ag 98 said:

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Architelico said:

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is planting bermuda up against a neighbors yard that has st augustine, i would recommend some type of edging or other method to mitigate the st augustine runners invading your yard. its a real PITA once it gets established.

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I have the same question for Zoysia - if I put Zoysia in up against bermuda, would the bermuda invade?

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Everywhere I have zoyzia it has run into the bermuda.

Somehow my gf got Zoysia in her established Bermuda yard and the zoysia is taking over pretty quickly.

I don't know about you guy's, but Bermuda all the way.

I've never heard of countries called St Augustine or Zoysia.

I Am Mine said:

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I don't know about you guy's, but Bermuda all the way.

I've never heard of countries called St Augustine or Zoysia.

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But do countries outrank saints?

I would go with bermuda. As others have stated many times, it's more tolerant of drought, traffic, and disease compared to st. augustine. It will also love your full sun. Some hybrid varieties are more shade tolerant than common.

There is not much prettier than a well maintained hybrid bermuda lawn. But that is a pretty maintenance heavy task. Not a big deal if you like yard work or outsource this to a qualified company. But your normal mow & blow crew that runs their zero turns at 4" and mulches the clippings will not have that yard looking very good.

I have celebration bermuda and mow with a rotary at 1.25". I'd really like a reel mower so I could mow under an inch; the turf would perform and look much better at a shorter height of cut. I fertilize monthly during the growing season, keep up with pre and post emergent herbicides, I spray humic acid to help with dog urine burns, and I spray plant growth regulator monthly so I don't have to mow every 2-3 days.

Yeah, I'd go bermuda unless shade is currently an issue or may become an issue, at which point I'd lean zoysia.

reddog90 said:

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I would go with bermuda. As others have stated many times, it's more tolerant of drought, traffic, and disease compared to st. augustine. It will also love your full sun. Some hybrid varieties are more shade tolerant than common.

There is not much prettier than a well maintained hybrid bermuda lawn. But that is a pretty maintenance heavy task. Not a big deal if you like yard work or outsource this to a qualified company. But your normal mow & blow crew that runs their zero turns at 4" and mulches the clippings will not have that yard looking very good.

I have celebration bermuda and mow with a rotary at 1.25". I'd really like a reel mower so I could mow under an inch; the turf would perform and look much better at a shorter height of cut. I fertilize monthly during the growing season, keep up with pre and post emergent herbicides, I spray humic acid to help with dog urine burns, and I spray plant growth regulator monthly so I don't have to mow every 2-3 days.

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Agree with everything you said.

I'm mowing every three days right now (Tif 419) and have been for years. I've heard of that growth regulator. Can you shed a little more detail? I don't mind mowing for the exercise, but once or twice a week versus 2-3x would be better.

reddog90 said:

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I would go with bermuda. As others have stated many times, it's more tolerant of drought, traffic, and disease compared to st. augustine. It will also love your full sun. Some hybrid varieties are more shade tolerant than common.

There is not much prettier than a well maintained hybrid bermuda lawn. But that is a pretty maintenance heavy task. Not a big deal if you like yard work or outsource this to a qualified company. But your normal mow & blow crew that runs their zero turns at 4" and mulches the clippings will not have that yard looking very good.

I have celebration bermuda and mow with a rotary at 1.25". I'd really like a reel mower so I could mow under an inch; the turf would perform and look much better at a shorter height of cut. I fertilize monthly during the growing season, keep up with pre and post emergent herbicides, I spray humic acid to help with dog urine burns, and I spray plant growth regulator monthly so I don't have to mow every 2-3 days.

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Saying any variety of bermuda is more shade tolerant is a reach. It is all still bermuda and none of it is very shade tolerant at all. If you mean Celebration can deal with 30 minutes or an hour less full sun than 419, you might be correct. Anything more than that is hogwash.
I have 2 varieties of zoysia outperforming bermuda in relatively little shade and one completely overtaking it in full sun.
That being said, 419 mowed at .75"-1" with a reel mower is a darn fine surface. I wouldn't want to mow it often enough to keep it that way though. I have sprayed Primo at a rate where I only had to mow my grass every 14-17 days with no ill effects.

In a full sun scenario, it's the drought tolerance of bermuda that is the selling point, not necessarily that it will thrive more in general. All 3 will thrive in full sun with enough water. Bermuda just tends to hang in better with less water.

Hybrid bermudas are barely more drought tolerant than zoyzia. If you live north of Waco and east of Weatherford, you probably will never be under watering restrictions that will ever test which one is more drought tolerant.
If you get to the point that zoyzia will die from lack of water, then you will probably lose 50-75% of your bermuda as well. It doesn't take a noticeable amount more of water on a "regular" basis to keep it as green as bermuda and in shade it will take less water and perform better.

I've had Diamond Zoyzia since Dr. Englke was still testing it before its release and tried all the other zoyzias along with it. El Toro and Zeon in full sun, lower maintenance situations. Cavalier or Emerald if you want "fairway" quality and the headaches that come with it. Palisades if you have some shade and want low maintenance. Diamond if you want low height "astroturf" and rarely want to mow. The Diamond I have in my yard has never been aerified or verticut and has an incredible thatch layer, but is a pleasure to walk on and look at and rarely needs to be mowed. But the way I maintain it does not do justice to what it is capable of.

Bob_Ag said:

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reddog90 said:

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I would go with bermuda. As others have stated many times, it's more tolerant of drought, traffic, and disease compared to st. augustine. It will also love your full sun. Some hybrid varieties are more shade tolerant than common.

There is not much prettier than a well maintained hybrid bermuda lawn. But that is a pretty maintenance heavy task. Not a big deal if you like yard work or outsource this to a qualified company. But your normal mow & blow crew that runs their zero turns at 4" and mulches the clippings will not have that yard looking very good.

I have celebration bermuda and mow with a rotary at 1.25". I'd really like a reel mower so I could mow under an inch; the turf would perform and look much better at a shorter height of cut. I fertilize monthly during the growing season, keep up with pre and post emergent herbicides, I spray humic acid to help with dog urine burns, and I spray plant growth regulator monthly so I don't have to mow every 2-3 days.

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Agree with everything you said.

I'm mowing every three days right now (Tif 419) and have been for years. I've heard of that growth regulator. Can you shed a little more detail? I don't mind mowing for the exercise, but once or twice a week versus 2-3x would be better.

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Check out The Lawn Forum, tons of info on PGR and DIYing a good quality sprayer with good tips. And there is a PGR exchange thread where you can get a 32oz bottle from another member instead of forking out for a big jug. You will need a decent quality, calibrated sprayer. The PGR has many benefits, but a lot of folks mainly use it to cut down on mowing frequency. Here is a side by side comparing PGR vs a strip I missed. You can see how you have to mow less frequently to keep up with the 1/3 rule when using PGR.

TMfrisco said:

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reddog90 said:

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I would go with bermuda. As others have stated many times, it's more tolerant of drought, traffic, and disease compared to st. augustine. It will also love your full sun. Some hybrid varieties are more shade tolerant than common.

There is not much prettier than a well maintained hybrid bermuda lawn. But that is a pretty maintenance heavy task. Not a big deal if you like yard work or outsource this to a qualified company. But your normal mow & blow crew that runs their zero turns at 4" and mulches the clippings will not have that yard looking very good.

I have celebration bermuda and mow with a rotary at 1.25". I'd really like a reel mower so I could mow under an inch; the turf would perform and look much better at a shorter height of cut. I fertilize monthly during the growing season, keep up with pre and post emergent herbicides, I spray humic acid to help with dog urine burns, and I spray plant growth regulator monthly so I don't have to mow every 2-3 days.

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Saying any variety of bermuda is more shade tolerant is a reach. It is all still bermuda and none of it is very shade tolerant at all. If you mean Celebration can deal with 30 minutes or an hour less full sun than 419, you might be correct. Anything more than that is hogwash.
I have 2 varieties of zoysia outperforming bermuda in relatively little shade and one completely overtaking it in full sun.
That being said, 419 mowed at .75"-1" with a reel mower is a darn fine surface. I wouldn't want to mow it often enough to keep it that way though. I have sprayed Primo at a rate where I only had to mow my grass every 14-17 days with no ill effects.

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I did not say any variety of bermuda is more shade tolerant. Shade tolerant is a relative term with bermuda, but there are some hybrids that are more shade tolerant than others. That's one of the reasons I chose celebration, and it has been shade tolerant in my yard in all but two small areas where I couldn't even get St. Augustine to grow.

Check out The Lawn Forum, tons of info on PGR and DIYing a good quality sprayer with good tips. And there is a PGR exchange thread where you can get a 32oz bottle from another member instead of forking out for a big jug. You will need a decent quality, calibrated sprayer. The PGR has many benefits, but a lot of folks mainly use it to cut down on mowing frequency. Here is a side by side comparing PGR vs a strip I missed. You can see how you have to mow less frequently to keep up with the 1/3 rule when using PGR.

Overkill on the good sprayer and nozzles - except when you calculate the cost of the product. Fortunately, cost of the product is irrelevant in my case. I have always sprayed mine with a typical hose-end sprayer and haven't had any issues.

You can buy generic Primo now for around $130/gallon. Sounds like a lot, but you only need to spray at a .25oz/1000 sq ft rate so 1 gallon will last a long time. Spray it at a heavier rate and watch your mowing interval really increase. You can discolor bermuda with too heavy a rate - small price for skipping several mowings.

TMfrisco said:

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Check out The Lawn Forum, tons of info on PGR and DIYing a good quality sprayer with good tips. And there is a PGR exchange thread where you can get a 32oz bottle from another member instead of forking out for a big jug. You will need a decent quality, calibrated sprayer. The PGR has many benefits, but a lot of folks mainly use it to cut down on mowing frequency. Here is a side by side comparing PGR vs a strip I missed. You can see how you have to mow less frequently to keep up with the 1/3 rule when using PGR.

Overkill on the good sprayer and nozzles - except when you calculate the cost of the product. Fortunately, cost of the product is irrelevant in my case. I have always sprayed mine with a typical hose-end sprayer and haven't had any issues.

You can buy generic Primo now for around $130/gallon. Sounds like a lot, but you only need to spray at a .25oz/1000 sq ft rate so 1 gallon will last a long time. Spray it at a heavier rate and watch your mowing interval really increase. You can discolor bermuda with too heavy a rate - small price for skipping several mowings.

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No, that's actually not overkill. It's pretty important to know exactly how much product you are putting down when using things like pre/post, PGR, humic, etc. You do you, but there is no comparing a decent quality sprayer with good tips and a store bought hose end sprayer.

OP here is a good thread on PGR:
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=54

I understand the need for calibrated, quality spray equipment when applying chemicals - especially in a business setting. I'm just telling you that for a homeowner putting down a growth regulator on their own yard it is overkill. I will freely admit that homeowners are very likely to operate by the "if a little is good, a lot will be better" mantra and could run into problems. However, if you understand the rate needed for a PGR on a bermuda lawn - and it is your own lawn - I personally would not go to the trouble of using the proper sprayer and nozzle setup. I've applied Primo to my own yard for over 20 years with a hose-end sprayer and never had any problems.
I know what rate is needed and have had excellent results without going through the trouble of calibrating a sprayer - either a walking boom or backpack or pump up.

For another example, watch any of the major lawn companies come around your neighborhood with a skid tank in the back of a truck and an applicator putting down chemicals. Granted, the solution in the tank is properly mixed and at a given pressure they know how much their sprayer is applying. They do not know how fast the applicator walks or moves his sprayer back and forth - etc. The chemicals they use are much more likely to cause harm than a simple PGR.

I am certainly not arguing with you about what is "right". I'm simply saying that if you want to apply a PGR to a yard and aren't concerned with the cost differences if you over-apply a little, a hose-end sprayer will work just fine for you.

We sodded St Augustine Palmetto...terrific grass and does better in the shade.

My yard is mixed with Bermuda and St Augustine. When I fail to water enough the Bermuda is the first to look poor especially on the west side of my yard.

Bob_Ag said:

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reddog90 said:

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I would go with bermuda. As others have stated many times, it's more tolerant of drought, traffic, and disease compared to st. augustine. It will also love your full sun. Some hybrid varieties are more shade tolerant than common.

There is not much prettier than a well maintained hybrid bermuda lawn. But that is a pretty maintenance heavy task. Not a big deal if you like yard work or outsource this to a qualified company. But your normal mow & blow crew that runs their zero turns at 4" and mulches the clippings will not have that yard looking very good.

I have celebration bermuda and mow with a rotary at 1.25". I'd really like a reel mower so I could mow under an inch; the turf would perform and look much better at a shorter height of cut. I fertilize monthly during the growing season, keep up with pre and post emergent herbicides, I spray humic acid to help with dog urine burns, and I spray plant growth regulator monthly so I don't have to mow every 2-3 days.

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Agree with everything you said.

I'm mowing every three days right now (Tif 419) and have been for years. I've heard of that growth regulator. Can you shed a little more detail? I don't mind mowing for the exercise, but once or twice a week versus 2-3x would be better.

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You mow more in two weeks than I do in a year! I admire your dedication.

TMfrisco said:

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I understand the need for calibrated, quality spray equipment when applying chemicals - especially in a business setting. I'm just telling you that for a homeowner putting down a growth regulator on their own yard it is overkill. I will freely admit that homeowners are very likely to operate by the "if a little is good, a lot will be better" mantra and could run into problems. However, if you understand the rate needed for a PGR on a bermuda lawn - and it is your own lawn - I personally would not go to the trouble of using the proper sprayer and nozzle setup. I've applied Primo to my own yard for over 20 years with a hose-end sprayer and never had any problems.
I know what rate is needed and have had excellent results without going through the trouble of calibrating a sprayer - either a walking boom or backpack or pump up.

For another example, watch any of the major lawn companies come around your neighborhood with a skid tank in the back of a truck and an applicator putting down chemicals. Granted, the solution in the tank is properly mixed and at a given pressure they know how much their sprayer is applying. They do not know how fast the applicator walks or moves his sprayer back and forth - etc. The chemicals they use are much more likely to cause harm than a simple PGR.

I am certainly not arguing with you about what is "right". I'm simply saying that if you want to apply a PGR to a yard and aren't concerned with the cost differences if you over-apply a little, a hose-end sprayer will work just fine for you.

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No, those guys spraying for a business probably don't know their walking speed. But they are consistently walking the same speed and holding the wand at the same height every time they spray (or at least they should be). Therefore they know how much they are spraying per 1k SF. There is also quite a difference in droplet size comparing a hose end sprayer vs something like an XR TeeJet. PGR needs to stick to the grass leaves when sprayed. I'm surprised but glad the hose end has worked out for you.