Canyon Creek in Richardson is $20k initiation and $675 dues as of last week. Course reno in progress. Used to be $2500.

Supply and demand.

_lefraud_ said:

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CapCityAg89 said:

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Anyone played Walnut Creek? I had no idea it was that cheap but it's about four miles away. Easily closest of any of those clubs.

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I haven't but they have 36 holes. I may go out there and try to play and see if I want to pull the trigger, as I have two kids that are getting into golf. They are run by ClubCorp, which I'm not wild about...

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I heard one is easier. No idea on conditions. I normally play lake Arlington and greens there are consistently great for a muni/daily fee course.

If you go - PM me.

AnyOtherName said:

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Canyon Creek in Richardson is $20k initiation and $675 dues as of last week. Course reno in progress. Used to be $2500.

Supply and demand.

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when we were members at Canyon (before Gleneagles) - this was like... 2017? it was $0 initiation and YoungExec dues were $425 IIRC.

Hopefully the new reno to the course is good... I wasn't a fan of it at all but lived close by and could get rounds in quickly. Greens were always in great shape but the Par70 thing sucked. 18 was dumb. 11 dumb. 15 also dumb.

I've thought about joining a CC multiple times, but I just can't financially justify it (I mean, you never really can justify it) so it keeps me from doing it.

I'd have to play 2+ times a week to justify the cost even if I subtract the current gym membership costs the wife is paying at Lifetime.

My kids are too old to be included and it would cost $75/round for them to play (something I'd not ask them to pay) and we can play the local courses for $25/round (including a cart) after 4PM. So I'd miss getting to play with them unless I go to the local muni - and then what's the point of the CC membership.

Sometimes my middle son will text me in the middle of the day and tell me he has a tee time at 5:30, "lets go play 9-holes". Unfortunately a developer bought the course I was looking at, that used to have 27 holes and you could play the 'West 9' for $35 guest fee, but that is being renovated into 7-holes, and the main 18 are going to be partially removed for a huge mixed use development (apartments, retail, hotels, even space, etc.) and there will only be a total of 18-holes going forward.

Other clubs around here are way over crowded (from what I've read and discussed with others) and finding tee times is impossible, or the management has run, or is running the course, into the ground.

1st world problems.

I'm in a similar boat. The only ones I'm interested in are the nicer ones in northern DFW. Could absolutely swing it, but we've always been conservative with our finances and are tracking to retire by 55. So dropping $50-100k and $1000+/mo is against what got me here. Also hard to justify the cost when they all seem to be busting at the seams with members after covid. The main value I want is easy access, which seems like a value most have lost or seen greatly reduced. On the flipside, we have one of the first 2-3 tee times at a local public course every Sat and Sun and it runs me less than half of the dues of a club I'd want to join. 1st world problems indeed

just got out of a meeting with a guy who's a member at Riviera, Maridoe, and DCC.... wow.

That is quite the list.

My cousin married into a family that has Riviera and Bel Air CC. Guy I work with married into a DCC membership.

Lucky *******s!

AnyOtherName said:

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Canyon Creek in Richardson is $20k initiation and $675 dues as of last week. Course reno in progress. Used to be $2500.

Supply and demand.

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That's insane. Canyon Creek from like 2014-2020 was anywhere from $0 to maybe $3k.

$20k is pretty ballsy even with a renovation. The neighborhood is mostly upper middle class, the practice area is an absolute joke, and the layout of the course is meh.

The nearby public course Pecan Hollow has been a much nicer course than Canyon Creek in every aspect the last nearly decade (better greens, better cart paths, way nicer practice facility, no houses on the course)

Will be interesting to see if they can actually make it a fringe Gleneagles type course quality wise at that price point (either that or 20k initiation is just an indirect way for them to say "hey where at max capacity please don't join")

Oakmont isn't 745 a month. It's actually right at 500. If they went to 745, they would loose their entire membership because club Corp/invited doesn't put any money into it, they actually siphon it and out it into the upper tier courses. Really pisses us off! Oakmont could be an absolute gem.

You will never justify the cost of a cc based on rounds played. That's not why you join a cc.

It's for the cheap beer prices right?

REMARCH11 said:

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Oakmont isn't 745 a month. It's actually right at 500. If they went to 745, they would loose their entire membership because club Corp/invited doesn't put any money into it, they actually siphon it and out it into the upper tier courses. Really pisses us off! Oakmont could be an absolute gem.

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You're sharing internal information about the club?!?!?! Investigations have begun and there will be consequences and repercussions!

And the 20 dollar chicken tenders. Sound familiar?!?' LOL.

GenericAggie said:

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And the 20 dollar chicken tenders. Sound familiar?!?' LOL.

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Honestly, the "One+" thing or whatever at clubcorp was pretty awesome for food (1/2 off listed prices).

We used to eat at Gleneagles a good bit. Canyon Creek had all you could eat buffalo wings for $10 or something during the week.

I meant $20 tenders at Kyle field. HAH.

AnyOtherName said:

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Canyon Creek in Richardson is $20k initiation and $675 dues as of last week. Course reno in progress. Used to be $2500.

Supply and demand.

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It was 5k in March. It's going to 60k initiation by the fall. The Diamond Group or whomever it was they contracted for the reno suggested it be 100k based on what the finished product will be and CC didn't see any way they could jump from 5k in January to 100k by year end.

investorAg83 said:

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AnyOtherName said:

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Canyon Creek in Richardson is $20k initiation and $675 dues as of last week. Course reno in progress. Used to be $2500.

Supply and demand.

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It was 5k in March. It's going to 60k initiation by the fall. The Diamond Group or whomever it was they contracted for the reno suggested it be 100k based on what the finished product will be and CC didn't see any way they could jump from 5k in January to 100k by year end.

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All the old frumpy houses in that course are getting bought, torn down, and rebuilt to magnificence. It'll be able to handle 100k entry because there are 5+ in DFW with that kind of coin and still have waiting lists.

People want courses close by and that area is getting more and more "money'd"

I hope they do some serious rework because I only liked about 5 holes on that course. 10, 11, 12, 13 dumb. 15 par5 also kind of dumb. 18? Worst finishing hole I've ever played.

ChoppinDs40 said:

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investorAg83 said:

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AnyOtherName said:

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Canyon Creek in Richardson is $20k initiation and $675 dues as of last week. Course reno in progress. Used to be $2500.

Supply and demand.

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It was 5k in March. It's going to 60k initiation by the fall. The Diamond Group or whomever it was they contracted for the reno suggested it be 100k based on what the finished product will be and CC didn't see any way they could jump from 5k in January to 100k by year end.

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All the old frumpy houses in that course are getting bought, torn down, and rebuilt to magnificence. It'll be able to handle 100k entry because there are 5+ in DFW with that kind of coin and still have waiting lists.

People want courses close by and that area is getting more and more "money'd"

I hope they do some serious rework because I only liked about 5 holes on that course. 10, 11, 12, 13 dumb. 15 par5 also kind of dumb. 18? Worst finishing hole I've ever played.

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18 will be the signature hole with a supposedly massive water feature.

This must be a multi year long project. There isn't a ton of space to do much of anything and I have to imagine they're also re-doing the practice facility which sucked bawlz.

ChoppinDs40 said:

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This must be a multi year long project. There isn't a ton of space to do much of anything and I have to imagine they're also re-doing the practice facility which sucked bawlz.

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Done by end of year. Expanding practice but nothing crazy.

Anyone have info on diamond oaks?

Has anyone heard of Discovery Land Co. doing a project outside of Ft Worth?

Are there any renderings or map of new course layout?

I guess it's been closed awhile huh? Not that I'd ever go back out there but would be very interested to see what it looks like when done.

Is the clubhouse getting a big face lift also?

Yes, I have heard about this but no details beyond that they have some land tied up.

investorAg83 said:

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It was 5k in March. It's going to 60k initiation by the fall. The Diamond Group or whomever it was they contracted for the reno suggested it be 100k based on what the finished product will be and CC didn't see any way they could jump from 5k in January to 100k by year end.

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Yeah no way that will ever happen. That's like borderline lakewood country club and colonial prices. Sounds like Diamond Group is trying to hype it up more so be realistic ("where going to do so good you can get 100k").

From what I was told the renovation for everything there doing (including pool and fitness center) was only going to be a few million. That's chump change, Colonial is about to drop over 20 million dollars on there renovation just to put that into perspective (no way Canyon Creek in 12 months with that budget is going to be able to charge high-end prices)

Even that lowend number (60k) your going to be competing with Clubs that have 2 courses and in nicer condition (Ridglea, Stonebriar, Gleneagles, DAC, Las Colinas Sports club)

ChoppinDs40 said:

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All the old frumpy houses in that course are getting bought, torn down, and rebuilt to magnificence. It'll be able to handle 100k entry because there are 5+ in DFW with that kind of coin and still have waiting lists.

People want courses close by and that area is getting more and more "money'd"

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I grew up in Canyon Creek and still live close by and there's not a gigantic amount of wealth in that area. 80% of the people who live their bought when it was sub $500k. Most of the households are upper middle class.

Even now if you earned $250k per year household income (which now a days is probably barely upper middle class) you could currently buy 18 of the 23 houses currently listed in Canyon Creek. If you exclude the 3 investor houses which where investors who are going to get burned by buying at the peak and trying to flip then you could currently buy 18 of the 20 houses currently listed on a 250k a year income.

There's zero chance it will handle 100k entry just because 10 houses a year are getting torn down. Not only that the tear downs have slowed down recently because the margins for the builders have halted since the original houses even in average condition are worth more than what they can profit on (most of the tear downs so far this year where houses that where bought years prior). The popular McMansion builders in that neighborhood (Shaddock Caldwell, Ron Davis, Fairview) years prior could buy a nice lot for 500k and do there new build for a decent margin but that same house now at 700k cuts into their margin too much because Canyon Creek does have a cap on what they can charge. The higher income earners they can't target because they can actually afford to live in the highend parts of Dallas

100k will never happen for a predominately upper middle class suburb neighborhood that's target more as a social/neighborhood club. I personally know a handful of people that are already dropping their memberships due to the monthly price hikes. 20-30k is probably the sweet spot of getting enough new members to mostly offset the people that are dropping. If a proper recession does happen than the lower end of that for sure

560ti said:

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ChoppinDs40 said:

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All the old frumpy houses in that course are getting bought, torn down, and rebuilt to magnificence. It'll be able to handle 100k entry because there are 5+ in DFW with that kind of coin and still have waiting lists.

People want courses close by and that area is getting more and more "money'd"

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I grew up in Canyon Creek and still live close by and there's not a gigantic amount of wealth in that area. 80% of the people who live their bought when it was sub $500k. Most of the households are upper middle class.

Even now if you earned $250k per year household income (which now a days is probably barely upper middle class) you could currently buy 18 of the 23 houses currently listed in Canyon Creek. If you exclude the 3 investor houses which where investors who are going to get burned by buying at the peak and trying to flip then you could currently buy 18 of the 20 houses currently listed on a 250k a year income.

There's zero chance it will handle 100k entry just because 10 houses a year are getting torn down. Not only that the tear downs have slowed down recently because the margins for the builders have halted since the original houses even in average condition are worth more than what they can profit on (most of the tear downs so far this year where houses that where bought years prior). The popular McMansion builders in that neighborhood (Shaddock Caldwell, Ron Davis, Fairview) years prior could buy a nice lot for 500k and do there new build for a decent margin but that same house now at 700k cuts into their margin too much because Canyon Creek does have a cap on what they can charge. The higher income earners they can't target because they can actually afford to live in the highend parts of Dallas

100k will never happen for a predominately upper middle class suburb neighborhood that's target more as a social/neighborhood club. I personally know a handful of people that are already dropping their memberships due to the monthly price hikes. 20-30k is probably the sweet spot of getting enough new members to mostly offset the people that are dropping. If a proper recession does happen than the lower end of that for sure

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all good points. I paid $1k when I joined and the dues were $425/month... I would never pay any more than $600/month and over $25k out there. It just isn't that nice.... but if they really make it into a super nice course, who knows. There are some clubs in really crappy parts of town that get that kind of cash. And while it is a neighborhood club, people will come from around the area to get on... There are plenty of people that live in North Dallas/Richardson area that can afford that (in the $60-70k range) that can't get in other places. Bent Tree, Northwood, etc. all have waiting lists and are over $100k. I'm not going to compare those to Canyon Creek (lol) from an amenities standpoint but availability is availability. What's Prestonwood Creeks course running these days?

What blows my mind is the bump at Gleneagles. It was nice when we were there, real nice. So much so that I felt like an outsider there but.... $80k and >$1k monthly dues? That has to be a ploy to cap headcount growth and get ready for all the 70 year old members to die off (some of which likely still have the grandfathered deal and can pass the membership down).

ChoppinDs40 said:

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all good points. I paid $1k when I joined and the dues were $425/month... I would never pay any more than $600/month and over $25k out there. It just isn't that nice.... but if they really make it into a super nice course, who knows. There are some clubs in really crappy parts of town that get that kind of cash. And while it is a neighborhood club, people will come from around the area to get on... There are plenty of people that live in North Dallas/Richardson area that can afford that (in the $60-70k range) that can't get in other places. Bent Tree, Northwood, etc. all have waiting lists and are over $100k. I'm not going to compare those to Canyon Creek (lol) from an amenities standpoint but availability is availability. What's Prestonwood Creeks course running these days?

What blows my mind is the bump at Gleneagles. It was nice when we were there, real nice. So much so that I felt like an outsider there but.... $80k and >$1k monthly dues? That has to be a ploy to cap headcount growth and get ready for all the 70 year old members to die off (some of which likely still have the grandfathered deal and can pass the membership down).

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Prestwood for both courses (Creeks and Hills) doubled in price recently and it's still only like 20-25k range.

Gleneagles from what I was told was one of the few ClubCorp locations in Texas that was actually legitimately at capacity pre covid so the demand was high even then. They also spent almost 10 million dollars on a recent 6 year project that renovated the facility along with both courses so i'm sure they want some money back on that.

I believe it at Gleneagles... before they figured out the bots that were being used to book tee times, it was impossible to ever get a 4some in the mornings on the weekends and often times Fridays, pre-covid.

They then fixed the bot thing and it got somewhat better but still couldn't get on in the mornings often.

Once COVID hit, holy moly. We moved from Plano about 6 months after it all went down and I don't think I played a single time in that stretch. Wasn't upset that I dropped the membership because we just couldn't use it.

Hopefully Arcis doesn't absolutely screw the pooch out at Gentle Creek. Upping the entry fee will help some once this damn clubhouse gets finished. Booked a <9am weekend tee time on Thursday and played in 3:15 - such a great feeling.

Caddying in the pro-am tomorrow for the FIL. Excited to see the course.

Pignorant said:

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Has anyone heard of Discovery Land Co. doing a project outside of Ft Worth?

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Maybe the one in Aledo? JJ Henry is involved with the design. I've heard it's going to be EXPENSIVE for those not living on the property.

Avanzada

I've played both PGA Frisco courses (well all 3 if you include the short par3 course).

The East course is very difficult. It is most similar to Old American if you have played that one. It is a walking only course. I hope they make it at least accessible for cart path only at some point, but currently it is really not feasible (you would have to walk through waste high or knee high grass to get to the fairway from the cart path in places). It is a fantastic course though - just challenging. Caddie required certain times of year (through June 18 currently).

The West course is easier because it's more open and the greens are larger. I've only played the East course once, but I've played the West course about 8 times. There are some very fun and interesting holes.

Course conditions on both are fantastic. Best I've seen anywhere in DFW personally. We'll see how well it holds up with increased traffic.

It's definitely different than a true private club with public access, but it is the best golfing experience in the area (from what I have experienced - I haven't played many of the places on this list). I've met NFL players, Dude Perfect guys, PGA Tour executives, and country music stars so far on the course. It did play a little slow one round on a Saturday morning - hopefully that is not a trend but it could be.

If you haven't been up there yet, take your kids to go play The Swing short course ($25 during the week I think - $40 on the weekends?) or the putting courses on the enormous Dance Floor (free). There are shops and dinings areas as well that are all open to the public. Keep in mind there are no public access practice areas unless you have a tee time or are a member.

560ti said:

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ChoppinDs40 said:

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All the old frumpy houses in that course are getting bought, torn down, and rebuilt to magnificence. It'll be able to handle 100k entry because there are 5+ in DFW with that kind of coin and still have waiting lists.

People want courses close by and that area is getting more and more "money'd"

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I grew up in Canyon Creek and still live close by and there's not a gigantic amount of wealth in that area. 80% of the people who live their bought when it was sub $500k. Most of the households are upper middle class.

Even now if you earned $250k per year household income (which now a days is probably barely upper middle class) you could currently buy 18 of the 23 houses currently listed in Canyon Creek. If you exclude the 3 investor houses which where investors who are going to get burned by buying at the peak and trying to flip then you could currently buy 18 of the 20 houses currently listed on a 250k a year income.

There's zero chance it will handle 100k entry just because 10 houses a year are getting torn down. Not only that the tear downs have slowed down recently because the margins for the builders have halted since the original houses even in average condition are worth more than what they can profit on (most of the tear downs so far this year where houses that where bought years prior). The popular McMansion builders in that neighborhood (Shaddock Caldwell, Ron Davis, Fairview) years prior could buy a nice lot for 500k and do there new build for a decent margin but that same house now at 700k cuts into their margin too much because Canyon Creek does have a cap on what they can charge. The higher income earners they can't target because they can actually afford to live in the highend parts of Dallas

100k will never happen for a predominately upper middle class suburb neighborhood that's target more as a social/neighborhood club. I personally know a handful of people that are already dropping their memberships due to the monthly price hikes. 20-30k is probably the sweet spot of getting enough new members to mostly offset the people that are dropping. If a proper recession does happen than the lower end of that for sure

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I don't disagree with anything you said about the real estate and neighborhood dynamics…. No way it supports a 100k buy in.

But the bolded part is just so unbelievably out of touch with reality it's not even funny. There are a lot of people who make a lot of money and who have built wealth over time, but not like that. That's the 92nd percentile household income in the United States, so not "barely upper middle class". It's firmly upper middle and would quickly become upper class in the high 200s. 75th percentile is like $130,000. In fact, over half the country has a household income under $70,000 or so.

yeah statistics don't lie but we're talking about country club memberships which already excludes about 85% of the country from ever sniffing one.

Unless you're in your 40s or 50s and have been able to stay put in the DFW burbs for some time, $250k doesn't go that far anymore... When "nice" homes are $650k+ and have $15k/year in property taxes. There are burbs out here where I bet >50% of neighborhoods make $250k+.

The new phase going up across the street from me has homes STARTING at $1.2mm and they're still flying like hot cakes.

There's a ****pile of money coming to the DFW burbs and it isn't stopping anytime soon, which is why I think some of these clubs are going to be able to keep it up.

Hell, I met with a guy last week that was a member at DCC, Maridoe and Riviera in LA that moved here a couple years ago... he's not going to be at Canyon Creek but it shows how much money is flowing here and people want to be in "Dallas county proper".

GenericAggie said:

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You will never justify the cost of a cc based on rounds played. That's not why you join a cc.

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Understand, just wish I could find a way to try it for a month or something and see if I'd really use it and like it.

My cousin gets there at 4 after work, works out, maybe hits a bucket or plays 9-holes, then is home by 6-7 4-times a week, and plays on weekends with his son. His wife plays in a lady's league one night a week and then drinks/dinner after with her girlfriends. She loves it.

Problem is my wife doesn't play golf, at all. I've taken her to the driving range a few times and she even walked the par 3 with me once just to get out of the house on a nice day and she said after "how do you do this, it's boring as hell!"....