quote:

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Possibly the most backwards analysis of the texas offense in history. Benson was the key...

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Not in that game he wasn't.

quote:

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If you don't think the gameplan changed when we came out in the second half, I would say there is no way you were watching the game. We came out throwing first and running second.

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Hence my statement, "The short passes are nothing more than to keep the 'D' line and backers honest to set up the run."

2004 For The Beer Champion
http://www.forthebeer.com/standings.php

Really Fran, nothing more? So I guess anyone could just use 'short passes' to march up and down the field the whole game and score roughly 80 pts...

quote:

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Seriously, look at all of the plays in your scoring drives in the second half. Please tell me that your idea wasn't to run the football almost exclusively. Almost all of the passes were of a short, ball control style.

---

You might have just made the single most ignorant comment in the history of the rivalries board. Lets review the drives, shall we?

Texas down 35-7... Vince throws 8 straight passes in the two minute drill.

Texas down 35-14... Vince begins the drive with two straight passing plays for 40 yards.

Texas down 35-21... Two of the first three plays are passes accounting for 46 yards.

Texas down 35-28... Second play an 11 yard out pattern to Sweed. Drive ends two plays later on long reverse.

Tie game... Young again starts the drive with 2 straight passing plays, accounting for 36 yards.

Texas up 42-35... now that we're ahead, we begin to rely once again on the power running game.


There goes your theory that we were trying to run exclusively and only pass when necessary to achieve it. That was our strategy in most games, but when it didn't work in the first half, we changed to a "pass-first" offense, relying on Vince's throwing to bring us back, which made the defense adjust and opened up the running game which had been shut down.

quote:

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Hence my statement, "The short passes are nothing more than to keep the 'D' line and backers honest to set up the run."

---

Except that the passes were mid-range and were used primarily to quickly move up and down the field (we were down a lot of points and needed to score quickly). We were only able to run the ball after Vince's passing forced OSU's defense to respect it.

OWNED

Texas down 35-7... Vince throws 8 straight passes in the two minute drill.

Against the prevent? Awesome!

Texas down 35-14... Vince begins the drive with two straight passing plays for 40 yards.

Scaife twice

Texas down 35-21... Two of the first three plays are passes accounting for 46 yards.

Benson for nine and the lone big play to Sweed

Texas down 35-28... Second play an 11 yard out pattern to Sweed. Drive ends two plays later on long reverse.

11 yard out pattern vs. man coverage

Tie game... Young again starts the drive with 2 straight passing plays, accounting for 36 yards.

Thomas and Benson

Texas up 42-35... now that we're ahead, we begin to rely once again on the power running game.

Good coaching!


All of these drives had two catches by a WR, (Sweed twice). The rest were drop offs to backs and TE's which had good YAC's

Radio did not exhibit any special passing skills on these drives.


2004 For The Beer Champion
http://www.forthebeer.com/standings.php

....and Patch, you have no clue about football, so go sit in the corner and play with your puzzies.

2004 For The Beer Champion
http://www.forthebeer.com/standings.php

OMG!

sodium - It is common knowledge that it is much easier to hit a TE or RB 10 yards down the field than a WR. A WR is a much, much tougher throw.

Gee, someone tell those idiot N.F.L. coaches that use the west coast offense that they are WAYYYYYYYYYYYY offbase.


Too bad Joe Montana and Steve Young couldn't make it work.

2004 For The Beer Champion
http://www.forthebeer.com/standings.php

quote:

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All of these drives had two catches by a WR, (Sweed twice). The rest were drop offs to backs and TE's which had good YAC's

---

Wrong again! Just because A&M doesn't know how to use their tight ends effectively doesn't mean that Texas doesn't. Since when does a 12 yard crossing route constitute a drop off? Or a 14 yard out pattern? Seriously, with each post you make you demonstrate less and less knowledge of that game.

Also of note: Scaife and Thomas both lined up at wideout on several of those completions. Although, since you watched the game and know so much about it, I'm sure you already knew that.

They are still tight ends no matter where they line up.


As far as the yardage stats, you do realize that they didn't fall stone dead after making the receptions, right?

Radio made the short passes he had to.

That is the argument I have been trying to make. He will never be considered a passer because he cannot make the downfield pass that most others can.

If a defense can successfully shut down the run and make t.u. rely on his arm, you are screwed. He is going to need Taylor or Young to help relieve the pressure teams are going to throw at him.

2004 For The Beer Champion
http://www.forthebeer.com/standings.php

quote:

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They are still tight ends no matter where they line up.

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So it's harder to throw to a wideout running a 10 yard pattern against a cornerback than it is to throw to a tight end running the exact same 10 yard pattern against the same cornerback? That makes sense.

quote:

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As far as the yardage stats, you do realize that they didn't fall stone dead after making the receptions, right?

Radio made the short passes he had to.

---

There is no way you are being serious! Do you really not know the difference between a 10-yard pattern and a 10-yard completion? Wow.

As I've said numerous times, 13 of the 18 completions traveled more than 12 yards in the air... as in traveled that far from Vince’s hand to the receivers' before they were caught... as in any yardage picked up by the receivers afterwards was not factored in. Do you get it yet, or do you need it written out in crayon first?

quote:

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That is the argument I have been trying to make. He will never be considered a passer because he cannot make the downfield pass that most others can.

---

Please enlighten us on what "downfield" passes he can't make. The following are all midrange to long-range passes that he not only completed but threw pretty well:


http://www.jcdenton40.com/UTvKU04-TonyJeffrey-Catch1(DivX).avi
http://www.jcdenton40.com/UTvTTU04-TonyJeffrey-Catch1(DivX).avi
http://www.jcdenton40.com/UTvKU04-TonyJeffrey-TD(DivX).avi
http://www.jcdenton41.com/UTvATM04-BoScaife-Catch1(DivX).avi
http://www.jcdenton41.com/UTvOSU04-LimasSweed-Catch1(DivX).avi
http://www.jcdenton41.com/UTvOU04-LimasSweed-Catch(DivX).avi
http://www.jcdenton41.com/UTvBU04-NathanJones-Catch(DivX).avi
http://www.jcdenton41.com/UTvBU04-TonyJeffrey-TD1(DivX).avi
http://www.jcdenton40.com/UTvARK04-TonyJeffrey-Catch(Divx).avi


If what you said was true, then none of the above could have happened. I'm not saying he's a great passer, but to say that he can't pass is ignorant and ridiculous.

quote:

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If a defense can successfully shut down the run and make t.u. rely on his arm, you are screwed.

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That's exactly what happened against OSU, and then Young started throwing. OSU was forced to adjust because Young was torching them, and that allowed the running game to operate. Without Young's passing, we wouldn't have been able to make that comeback.


[This message has been edited by sodiumacetate (edited 7/14/2005 5:55p).]

quote:

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So it's harder to throw to a wideout running a 10 yard pattern against a cornerback than it is to throw to a tight end running the exact same 10 yard pattern against the same cornerback? That makes sense.

---

If TEs don't set up covering a tackle, they almost always play in the SLOT. That means that in a non-zone they are covered by the strong safety or a nickelback or even the SLB, if they are covered at all.

Brandi: I know, except that since they had the best hands on the team, a lot of times they would line up as a true wideout. Thomas actually lined up as a tight end, slot receiver, wideout, and fullback throughout the year.

quote:

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That's exactly what happened against OSU, and then Young started throwing. OSU was forced to adjust because Young was torching them,

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Yeah, that's EXACTLY what happened.

Radio's 4th and 5th passes were picked off which led to 14 of the 28 points in the 28-7 defecit.

OSU went onto the prevent which allowed Radio to complete almost HALF of his completions for the game in that one drive.

The completions were to:

Sweed - (2)
Benson - (2)
Thomas - (2)
Scaife - (2)

75% were underneath routes to backs and ends against the prevent.

Again, Radio can't pass to save his life.

2004 For The Beer Champion
http://www.forthebeer.com/standings.php

What's the big deal? Everyone should quit losing sleep over this Vince vs Reggie issue. Texas is happy with their QB who is 17-2 as a starter & the Aggies are happy with their QB who has a losing record as a starter. DON"T WORRY! BE HAPPY!

quote:

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Radio = Michael Bishop v2.0?

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And once again ADorca misses the point of the thread.

2004 For The Beer Champion
http://www.forthebeer.com/standings.php

So here we go with idiots who think vince can throw? Wow!

quote:

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Everyone should quit losing sleep over this Vince vs Reggie issue.

---

It's the teasips that can't sleep at night- here's why:

Reggie McNeal TD:INT - 14:4

Radio "Reggie's My Daddy" Young - 12:11




IA National Player Report
Total Offense

7 Reggie McNeal, Texas A&M QB JR 12 151 932 214 718 344 2791 495 3509 7.09 292.4
8 Kyle Orton, Purdue QB SR 11 80 284 172 112 389 3090 469 3202 6.83 291.1
9 Derek Anderson, Oregon St. QB SR 12 75 147 299 -152 515 3615 590 3463 5.87 288.6
10 Bruce Gradkowski, Toledo QB JR 13 91 331 140 191 399 3518 490 3709 7.57 285.3
11 Walter Washington, Temple QB JR 11 222 1104 215 889 332 2207 554 3096 5.59 281.5
12 Ryan Hart, Rutgers QB JR 11 46 74 167 -93 453 3154 499 3061 6.13 278.3
13 Josh Betts, Miami (Ohio) QB JR 13 83 314 228 86 444 3510 527 3596 6.82 276.6
14 Andrew Walter, Arizona St. QB SR 11 58 112 224 -112 426 3150 484 3038 6.28 276.2
15 Dan Orlovsky, Connecticut QB SR 12 32 79 120 -41 457 3354 489 3313 6.78 276.1
16 Chris Leak, Florida QB SO 12 61 229 150 79 399 3197 460 3276 7.12 273.0
17 Jared Zabransky, Boise St. QB SO 12 130 570 244 326 327 2927 457 3253 7.12 271.1
18 Tyler Palko, Pittsburgh QB SO 12 129 469 330 139 409 3067 538 3206 5.96 267.2
19 Steven Jyles, La.-Monroe QB JR 11 150 703 116 587 366 2322 516 2909 5.64 264.5
20 Jerry Babb, La.-Lafayette QB SO 11 101 630 132 498 385 2365 486 2863 5.89 260.3
21 Clint Marks, Middle Tenn. St. QB SO 11 73 242 129 113 368 2749 441 2862 6.49 260.2
22 Brett Basanez, Northwestern QB JR 12 83 361 103 258 460 2838 543 3096 5.70 258.0
23 Kevin Kolb, Houston QB SO 11 118 354 303 51 353 2766 471 2817 5.98 256.1
24 Darrell Hackney, UAB QB JR 12 81 196 240 -44 358 3070 439 3026 6.89 252.2
25 Matt Leinart, Southern California QB JR 13 49 143 187 -44 412 3322 461 3278 7.11 252.2
26 Danny Wimprine, Memphis QB SR 12 57 187 75 112 398 2892 455 3004 6.60 250.3
27 Brad Smith, Missouri QB JR 11 165 791 238 553 369 2185 534 2738 5.13 248.9
27 Kellen Clemens, Oregon QB JR 11 118 445 255 190 372 2548 490 2738 5.59 248.9
29 Gino Guidugli, Cincinnati QB SR 11 43 165 75 90 342 2633 385 2723 7.07 247.5
30 Matt Jones, Arkansas QB SR 11 83 735 113 622 264 2073 347 2695 7.77 245.0
31 Stefan Lefors, Louisville QB SR 12 71 398 65 333 257 2596 328 2929 8.93 244.1
32 Vince Young, Texas QB SO 12 167 1189 110 1079 250 1849 417 2928 7.02 244.0



IA National Player Report
Passing Efficiency

26 Reggie McNeal, Texas A&M QB JR 12 344 200 58.14 4 1.16 2791 8.11 14 4.07 137.4
27 Scott Hall, North Texas QB SR 12 237 134 56.54 4 1.69 1818 7.67 14 5.91 137.1
28 Jordan Palmer, UTEP QB SO 12 366 213 58.20 18 4.92 2818 7.70 26 7.10 136.5
29 Brandon Hassell, TCU QB SR 10 217 123 56.68 3 1.38 1724 7.94 10 4.61 135.9
30 Marques Hagans, Virginia QB JR 12 261 164 62.84 5 1.92 2024 7.75 9 3.45 135.5
31 Timmy Chang, Hawaii QB SR 13 602 358 59.47 13 2.16 4258 7.07 38 6.31 135.4
32 Paul Pinegar, Fresno St. QB JR 12 292 173 59.25 15 5.14 2099 7.19 23 7.88 135.3
33 Tyler Palko, Pittsburgh QB SO 12 409 230 56.23 7 1.71 3067 7.50 24 5.87 135.2
34 Darian Durant, North Carolina QB SR 12 299 178 59.53 9 3.01 2238 7.48 17 5.69 135.1
35 Jay Cutler, Vanderbilt QB JR 11 241 147 61.00 5 2.07 1844 7.65 10 4.15 134.8
36 Paul Peterson, Boston College QB SR 11 355 221 62.25 10 2.82 2594 7.31 18 5.07 134.7
37 Dan Orlovsky, Connecticut QB SR 12 457 288 63.02 15 3.28 3354 7.34 23 5.03 134.7
38 Drew Tate, Iowa QB SO 12 375 233 62.13 14 3.73 2786 7.43 20 5.33 134.7
39 Bryan Randall, Virginia Tech QB SR 13 306 170 55.56 9 2.94 2264 7.40 21 6.86 134.5
40 Joshua Cribbs, Kent St. QB SR 10 335 216 64.48 6 1.79 2215 6.61 17 5.07 133.2
41 Matt Jones, Arkansas QB SR 11 264 151 57.20 12 4.55 2073 7.85 15 5.68 132.8
42 Chad Henne, Michigan QB FR 12 399 240 60.15 12 3.01 2743 6.87 25 6.27 132.6
43 Drew Olson, UCLA QB JR 12 341 196 57.48 13 3.81 2565 7.52 20 5.87 132.4
44 Drew Stanton, Michigan St. QB JR 10 220 141 64.09 6 2.73 1601 7.28 8 3.64 131.8
45 Kellen Clemens, Oregon QB JR 11 372 223 59.95 10 2.69 2548 6.85 22 5.91 131.6
46 Steven Moffett, UCF QB SO 10 229 147 64.19 10 4.37 1721 7.52 9 3.93 131.6
47 Dale Rogers, San Jose St. QB SR 11 181 96 53.04 8 4.42 1389 7.67 12 6.63 130.5
48 Kevin Kolb, Houston QB SO 11 353 198 56.09 6 1.70 2766 7.84 11 3.12 128.8
49 Danny Wimprine, Memphis QB SR 12 398 225 56.53 14 3.52 2892 7.27 22 5.53 128.8
50 John Beck, Brigham Young QB SO 11 343 192 55.98 8 2.33 2563 7.47 15 4.37 128.5
51 Vince Young, Texas QB SO 12 250 148 59.20 11 4.40 1849 7.40 12 4.80 128.4

quote:

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75% were underneath routes to backs and ends against the prevent.

---

Wrong again.

I guess someone really would have to write it out in crayon before you'ld get it. I've got the entire game on my hard drive from Tivo, which is how I know that 13 of the completions traveled more than 12 yards in the air. However, you can continue to live with your head in the sand if you wish.

quote:

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Again, Radio can't pass to save his life.

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In all of the following circumstances, he wasn't throwing to save his life, but merely to win football games... the results are in the video.

http://www.jcdenton40.com/UTvKU04-TonyJeffrey-Catch1(DivX).avi
http://www.jcdenton40.com/UTvTTU04-TonyJeffrey-Catch1(DivX).avi
http://www.jcdenton40.com/UTvKU04-TonyJeffrey-TD(DivX).avi
http://www.jcdenton41.com/UTvATM04-BoScaife-Catch1(DivX).avi
http://www.jcdenton41.com/UTvOSU04-LimasSweed-Catch1(DivX).avi
http://www.jcdenton41.com/UTvOU04-LimasSweed-Catch(DivX).avi
http://www.jcdenton41.com/UTvBU04-NathanJones-Catch(DivX).avi
http://www.jcdenton41.com/UTvBU04-TonyJeffrey-TD1(DivX).avi
http://www.jcdenton40.com/UTvARK04-TonyJeffrey-Catch(Divx).avi

You've already shown on this thread how little you know about Texas football. You can continue to ignore the facts if you wish... my two year old cousin does the same thing when the truth isn't what she wants it to be. Vince is far from being a great passer, but to say he can't throw is ignorant and ridiculous. Keep telling yourself he can't throw, and then watch him complete passes as he leads Texas to yet another victory on T+1.

quote:

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which is how I know that 13 of the completions traveled more than 12 yards in the air

---

Wait a minute...I remember now.....


You tried to count his dropback as part of his passing yardage in addition to not counting YAC...... For some reason you still are trying to con everyone into thinking the receivers took a knee after the catch.

Unfortunately, stats are figured from THE LINE OF SCRIMMAGE. The dropback doesn't count.

Nice try.

So you think showing us 9 passes (3 of which are simply great catches by the WR, not good passes thrown by VY) proves VY is a good passer? All that proves is he makes a good throw once or twice a game.

What it boils down to is, if Reggie McNeal couldnt run he would still be a very good QB because he has one of the powerful, accurate arms in CF. VY, without his running ability, wouldnt even be playing CF.

http://www.jcdenton41.com/UTvRICE04-DavidThomas-TD2(DivX).avi

So Radio 'aired out' this 48 yard beauty vs. Rice since there is no such thing as YAC....

BTW - It was actually 10 yards in the air and not 18. Radio was 8 yards behind the LOS when he released it.

2004 For The Beer Champion
http://www.forthebeer.com/standings.php

[This message has been edited by FrantasticExpectations (edited 7/14/2005 7:37p).]

quote:

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You tried to count his dropback as part of his passing yardage in addition to not counting YAC...... For some reason you still are trying to con everyone into thinking the receivers took a knee after the catch.

Unfortunately, stats are figured from THE LINE OF SCRIMMAGE. The dropback doesn't count.

Nice try.

---

Sigh, wrong again Franny. Looks like you've taken two separate arguments of mine, tried to combine parts of them, and spit them out as something I've claimed. I have never twisted any fact to make it help my argument... that's something an aggie would do. I only use straight up facts to support my arguments. I have never said that stats counted from anywhere but the line of scrimmage. Nor have I said anywhere that the receivers yardage after the catch is included in whether the pass is short-range, mid-range, or long-range. Does putting words in my mouth really make you feel better about yourself?

I'm not sure why I'm even bothering with this again because it's obviously beyond you. First argument: A 12-yard out pattern DOES NOT MEAN that the pass was completed for 12 yards. Nor does it mean that it was completed 12 yards from where the quarterback threw the ball. How you fail to grasp such a simple concept is beyond me.
Vince has shown time and time again that he can complete passes to receivers and tight ends running mid-range (8-18 yard) routes. That means that the receiver ran a route designed for him to make the move (slant, out, hook, post, etc.) at that yardage (8-18 yards from the line of scrimmage). Needless to say, these passes aren't simply for "ball control," but for moving the ball down the field towards the endzone. The video clips are all examples of passes completed on such routes (or longer). Thus, there is concrete proof that conflicts with your statement that Vince "can't pass to save his life."

Second argument: Regarding the Okie State game... there is concrete proof that Vince was not throwing 75% short drop off passes as you claimed. I define a short pass as anything under 12 yards, from quarterback to receiver. This means that if a quarterback drops back 5 yards, I consider it a short pass if the receiver catches it less than 7 yards from the line of scrimmage. In the Okie State game, 13 of the completed passes were longer than 12 yards from quarterback to receiver in the air. That is to say, again, that they traveled at least 12 yards from where Vince threw it to where the receiver caught it... not where the receiver was tackled. The point has nothing to do with stats, but on whether or not he was just throwing short passes.

quote:

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So Radio 'aired out' this 48 yard beauty vs. Rice since there is no such thing as YAC....

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Nothing I have claimed is even close to that, and you either know it, or you really struggle with reading comprehension. I have never once said the yards after the catch count towards deciding on whether Vince can throw mid-range and long-range passes. It's pitiful that you would go to such lengths to try to discredit me.


[This message has been edited by sodiumacetate (edited 7/14/2005 11:37p).]

quote:

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So you think showing us 9 passes (3 of which are simply great catches by the WR, not good passes thrown by VY) proves VY is a good passer?

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I'm not sure how you made that connection. I never said they proved he was a good passer. I just said they proved that fran's statement that he can't pass is false. When you make an absolute statement like Fran did, any evidence that contradicts it makes it false. Besides, I could have shown many more plays... those were just the first few I found that contradicted his statement.

quote:

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What it boils down to is, if Reggie McNeal couldn’t run he would still be a very good QB because he has one of the powerful, accurate arms in CF. VY, without his running ability, wouldn’t even be playing CF.

---

Your reading comprehension is good enough to realize that I wasn't comparing Vince to Reggie, isn't it? Again, my only argument was that it is false to claim Vince can't make good throws.

Geez.

Give it a rest and grab some sleep.

No matter how much you sips want Radio to be considered a well rounded QB, it is going to take some incredible coaching. From what we've seen, you haven't developed QB talent worth a damn for years now.

When Radio starts to put up some balanced numbers, then I'll eat crow.

I have a feeling he is going to have to rely on the WR's more than in the past with the losses of old man Scaife, (finally) and C-Bong.

2004 For The Beer Champion
http://www.forthebeer.com/standings.php

FE, something tells me you're not going to enjoy watching VY this year. His passing has in fact improved, as well as his familiarity with his WR's. Keep an eye on Sweed, as well as Shipley and Billy Pittman.

It'll be hard to beat his own record of 18 completions in a row, but I predict that he will shatter the single season total offense record for Texas, as long as he stays healthy.

If I had to choose (as a conscientious objector of course) I would have to take Vince Young, who has beaten atm every time he has played them, over McNeal, who has never beaten Texas.

In the NFL, it's a different story, and no one on here thinks VY will be the next Peyton Mannning. If you guys think RM will be, then I feel for you.

Again, you can argue all you want, but the fact is: Vince owns the aggies.

Yea, it was a fine name, until that no-talent ass clown started winning grammys.

"When VY starts to put up some balanced numbers, then I'll eat crow."

Actually I prefer VY's unbalanced numbers such as 17-2.

Hookem

Why wouldn't you throw to your All-American candidate tight ends when you can? Should Texas purposely throw to their freshmen wide receivers instead to appease Frantastic?

The fact is Frantastic has a full-time job at continually grabbing at irrelevant straws in an argument in his own head about who is better at things, Texas or Texas A&M. The truth is that Texas and Texas A&M might be the most lopsided rivalry across the board in college sports. Frantastic simply tries to reduce the pain of this fact by going on bizarre rants about how Vince throws to tight ends, as if that proves anything.

sigh.....

btw, in the OSU game, one of the picks was Limas Sweed's fault.

quote:

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I compared Reggie and VY's last 6 games. Factors not included are strength of schedule and obviously team strengths. Of those 6 games Texas and A&M played two common opponents and each other. They played three separate opponents during that span. Texas played Kansas, Ok state and Michigan. A&M played Baylor, OU and Tenn. Texas went 3-0, A&M went 0-3. Overall texas went 6-0, A&M went 2-4. Again A&M schedule those last six games was a bit harder than Texas' but not much. Also, Texas of course had a better o-line and running back while A&M had better wideouts. I will note that Texas had Benson to take Tds away from Vince (he scored 10 in that span) while Lewis only scored 4. The things that popped out at me most were that Vince averaged more total yards and a better touchdown to turnover ratio than Reggie did the last half of the year. As you can see, Vince had two more turnovers than Reggie, and nine more touchdowns. I'll let the stats speak for themselves but note the highlighted box. Note: the total turnovers includes fumbles lost.

---

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/19110530771.jpg&s=x2

[This message has been edited by gnglonghorn (edited 7/15/2005 10:00a).]

Poor Aggies.