quote:

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The ONLY stat for a QB is wins and losses.

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So you're basically telling me that Trent Dilfer is better than Dan Marino? Well, I dont believe you.

quote:

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West Horn - Barring injury, Vince will go pro after this year and be taken considerably higher in the draft than Reggie. The Vince-bashing on this board is part of its appeal. It adds comic effect.

---

I'll bet you on that, given a few things:
1. VY has to be drafted as a QB and on the roster as a QB for his entire first season. He also has to take more snaps at QB than any other position in his first season.
2. 'Considerably higher' is at least 10 spots.
3. Neither player suffers a major injury before being drafted.

Hostile Aggie - You need a remedial course in logic.

Of course Vince can be better than Reggie and UT's team better than A&M's.

We beat your ass and had a much better record.

If you would learn a little about football, you would discover that a lot more is required of a QB on a crappy team so he will frequently have better stats than QB's on better teams. So he is responsible for more of the plays.

He is responsible for winning or losing, not piling up stats. If you are alluding to Vince's interceptions, many of those were the fault of our wideouts, the worst group we've had in years. Fortunately, we had Vince, Ced, a great OL, and a couple of good tight ends. You seldom get everything at one time. OU seemed to have it all but they faded at the end as usual.

As for the coming draft, the pros look at potential. They first see size and strength, then speed, then escabability. They really don't give a s*** about college stats or passing techniques. Vince is at least 3" taller, 30 lbs heavier, more developed, can throw a ball a mile, and y'all haven't found anybody who can catch him. The pros think they can teach technique and most other things, but they want to see leadership, physical attributes, and the ability to win, especially when the QB has to take it on himself to do it.

Reggie is a nice Qb. Be happy you have him. Keep bragging on him on this board. It makes me chuckle.

Uva Uvum Vivendo Varia Fit

quote:

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As for the coming draft, the pros look at potential. They first see size and strength, then speed, then escabability. They really don't give a s*** about college stats or passing techniques. Vince is at least 3" taller, 30 lbs heavier, more developed, can throw a ball a mile, and y'all haven't found anybody who can catch him. The pros think they can teach technique and most other things, but they want to see leadership, physical attributes, and the ability to win, especially when the QB has to take it on himself to do it.

---

If you're so sure about this, take me up on my bet.

quote:

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Vince is at least 3" tall

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I wasn't commenting as to truth.

But allow me to now:

The Dilfer/Marino comparison is flawed, because VY is not a caretaker QB on a team built around defense, a la Dilfer. In fact, UT relied on him heavily to produce yards and scores, unlike Dilfer's squads. And Reggie is certainly no Dan Marino.

Games won is not the only important stat for a QB, and it never will be until football is a 1:1 game. If Coach Brown believed that, he'd never have offered Sherrod Harris, whose team finished 1-9 last year.

But you're a complete idiot if you think wins aren't an important component of measuring a QB, or that a dispassionate discussion of yards passing per game tells the whole QB story.

Reggie had a much more productive receiving crew, at least in part because of his passing skills. VY had a much more productive running game, at least in part because of his running skills.

There are so many variables about QB performance, including supporting cast, quality of opposition, offensive philosophy, etc - that the original post is clearly flamebait with no substance whatsoever. That's kind of what this board is about...I presume you meant it as flamebait and not as an exhaustive analysis of the merits of the two QBs.

I'll say this in support of VY - when the pressure is on, his play improves. I'll take that stat any time.

Timmy - Back to remedial reading, son. It says, "taller" and if you will look, there have been no edits.

Uva Uvum Vivendo Varia Fit

quote:

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Of course Vince can be better than Reggie and UT's team better than A&M's.

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You are right, he CAN be, however he is not.

quote:

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We beat your ass and had a much better record.

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While you didnt "beat our ass" as we were very much in the game with 5 minutes left, yes you were better and had the better record

quote:

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If you would learn a little about football, you would discover that a lot more is required of a QB on a crappy team so he will frequently have better stats than QB's on better teams. So he is responsible for more of the plays.

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I agree, however A&M was hardly "crappy" last year. We were 7-5 and went to a New Years Day Bowl Game. Just because Texas is better doesnt make us crappy, so this is a moot point regarding this discussion.

quote:

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He is responsible for winning or losing, not piling up stats. If you are alluding to Vince's interceptions, many of those were the fault of our wideouts, the worst group we've had in years.

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I hate it when sips use this to justify his turnovers, 6 of his INTs were throw DIRECTLY TO the defender, they didnt even move to pick it off.

quote:

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Fortunately, we had Vince, Ced, a great OL, and a couple of good tight ends. You seldom get everything at one time. OU seemed to have it all but they faded at the end as usual.

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Agreed

quote:

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As for the coming draft, the pros look at potential. They first see size and strength, then speed, then escabability. They really don't give a s*** about college stats or passing techniques.

---

False, throwing motion is why teams had question marks about Phillip Rivers. Throwing motion is a big part of why teams were wortried about Doug Flutie. Its a BIG deal to pro scouts.

quote:

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Vince is at least 3" taller, 30 lbs heavier, more developed, can throw a ball a mile, and y'all haven't found anybody who can catch him.

---

Reggie is also a lot faster, more agile, has far more accuracy, and can throw just as far as Vince (in a normal throwing motion, not that pull your arm way back thing, he threw it nearly 70 yards in the Hail Mary vs OSU).

quote:

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The pros think they can teach technique and most other things, but they want to see leadership, physical attributes, and the ability to win, especially when the QB has to take it on himself to do it.

---

Where was Vince's "leadership" against OU? Or Mizzu? Or A&M? Or CU? All those games he did his best to hurt his team and his team bailed him out. Every gamer A&M won was because of Reggie and he rarely hurt us.

quote:

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Reggie is a nice Qb. Be happy you have him. Keep bragging on him on this board. It makes me chuckle.

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Reggie is one of the top 5 QBs in the country, and VY is one of the top 5 RBs in the country. Its that simple.

quote:

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because VY is not a caretaker QB on a team built around defense

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He isn't?

CMack11 - There's one problem with betting on it. Vince might not come out. He should, because his family needs the money, but I'd be betting against the magnetism of the p*ssy on UT's campus, and it's won out about 100% of the time in recent history. Our basketball guard, T J Ford, left early but that's about it.

Uva Uvum Vivendo Varia Fit

quote:

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CMack11 - There's one problem with betting on it. Vince might not come out. He should, because his family needs the money, but I'd be betting against the magnetism of the p*ssy on UT's campus, and it's won out about 100% of the time in recent history. Our basketball guard, T J Ford, left early but that's about it.

---

So let's plan on something if he does.

If not I'll give you more than one out.

If Vince DOESN'T come out next year, I say he still won't see more snaps as an NFL QB than he will @ another position.

And don't take this as coming from a VY hater. The guy's a Hell of a talent. He's just not an NFL-caliber passer, and probably never will be.

Yes, dont get me wrong Dub, VY has alot of talent and is one of the best RBs Ive ever seen. He isnt a great QB though.

Invictus - If it weren't for these nonsensical flame threads the board would get awfully dull.

Hostel Ag is so young he doesn't even understand WR's running wrong routes, but that is among many things about football he doesn't understand. As you can tell, logic is not his strong point. He disclosed that near the top of his long post.

I ignore 9 out of 10 of these VY versus Reggie threads and jumped in for fun. I hope they're both drafted high and make millions, but it's easy to see which one will appeal more to GM's.

Uva Uvum Vivendo Varia Fit

CMack - I'll probably do your original bet with the additional proviso that it's on only if Vince elects to come out. Combined with the injury out, that should make it doable.

He'd have to be taken 10 picks before Reggie for me to win.

CMack - I have a problem with the qualification on snaps because rookie QB's (either VY or RM) frequently don't get any snaps their rookie year. As QB's are always drafted higher, and players changing positions are usually hurt by that fact, I don't see why that's a deal breaker.

Are you in Houston so we can make it for meal?

Uva Uvum Vivendo Varia Fit





[This message has been edited by LonghornDub (edited 6/14/2005 5:39p).]

[This message has been edited by LonghornDub (edited 6/14/2005 5:43p).]

quote:

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I ignore 9 out of 10 of these VY versus Reggie threads and jumped in for fun. I hope they're both drafted high and make millions, but it's easy to see which one will appeal more to GM's.

---

I agree, the one with the better passing mechanics, far better accuracy, more speed and agility, and with more natural QB skills will appeal more to NFL GMs.

Keep it up, Hostel Aggie, I love it.

Uva Uvum Vivendo Varia Fit

1: Learn to spell

2: Learn that, if you have nothing to add but "Your're funny" and "you have no football knowledge", it leads people to believe you know you are wrong and just spewing random BS trying to change the subject.

quote:

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Vince will go pro after this year

---

AHEM,



BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


Wait... wait... wait....



BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!


YEAH, I REMEMBER WHEN CHRISSY WAS A "SURE FIRE NUMBER ONE PICK, TOO!

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!


nutless bovine delusion: WHERE DOES IT END??!!?!!!

Uh-Oh, Brandi has stumbld upon a VY thread. Head for the hills....

Reggie McNeal TD:INT - 14:4

Radio "Reggie's My Daddy" Young - 12:11




IA National Player Report
Total Offense

7 Reggie McNeal, Texas A&M QB JR 12 151 932 214 718 344 2791 495 3509 7.09 292.4
8 Kyle Orton, Purdue QB SR 11 80 284 172 112 389 3090 469 3202 6.83 291.1
9 Derek Anderson, Oregon St. QB SR 12 75 147 299 -152 515 3615 590 3463 5.87 288.6
10 Bruce Gradkowski, Toledo QB JR 13 91 331 140 191 399 3518 490 3709 7.57 285.3
11 Walter Washington, Temple QB JR 11 222 1104 215 889 332 2207 554 3096 5.59 281.5
12 Ryan Hart, Rutgers QB JR 11 46 74 167 -93 453 3154 499 3061 6.13 278.3
13 Josh Betts, Miami (Ohio) QB JR 13 83 314 228 86 444 3510 527 3596 6.82 276.6
14 Andrew Walter, Arizona St. QB SR 11 58 112 224 -112 426 3150 484 3038 6.28 276.2
15 Dan Orlovsky, Connecticut QB SR 12 32 79 120 -41 457 3354 489 3313 6.78 276.1
16 Chris Leak, Florida QB SO 12 61 229 150 79 399 3197 460 3276 7.12 273.0
17 Jared Zabransky, Boise St. QB SO 12 130 570 244 326 327 2927 457 3253 7.12 271.1
18 Tyler Palko, Pittsburgh QB SO 12 129 469 330 139 409 3067 538 3206 5.96 267.2
19 Steven Jyles, La.-Monroe QB JR 11 150 703 116 587 366 2322 516 2909 5.64 264.5
20 Jerry Babb, La.-Lafayette QB SO 11 101 630 132 498 385 2365 486 2863 5.89 260.3
21 Clint Marks, Middle Tenn. St. QB SO 11 73 242 129 113 368 2749 441 2862 6.49 260.2
22 Brett Basanez, Northwestern QB JR 12 83 361 103 258 460 2838 543 3096 5.70 258.0
23 Kevin Kolb, Houston QB SO 11 118 354 303 51 353 2766 471 2817 5.98 256.1
24 Darrell Hackney, UAB QB JR 12 81 196 240 -44 358 3070 439 3026 6.89 252.2
25 Matt Leinart, Southern California QB JR 13 49 143 187 -44 412 3322 461 3278 7.11 252.2
26 Danny Wimprine, Memphis QB SR 12 57 187 75 112 398 2892 455 3004 6.60 250.3
27 Brad Smith, Missouri QB JR 11 165 791 238 553 369 2185 534 2738 5.13 248.9
27 Kellen Clemens, Oregon QB JR 11 118 445 255 190 372 2548 490 2738 5.59 248.9
29 Gino Guidugli, Cincinnati QB SR 11 43 165 75 90 342 2633 385 2723 7.07 247.5
30 Matt Jones, Arkansas QB SR 11 83 735 113 622 264 2073 347 2695 7.77 245.0
31 Stefan Lefors, Louisville QB SR 12 71 398 65 333 257 2596 328 2929 8.93 244.1
32 Vince Young, Texas QB SO 12 167 1189 110 1079 250 1849 417 2928 7.02 244.0



IA National Player Report
Passing Efficiency

26 Reggie McNeal, Texas A&M QB JR 12 344 200 58.14 4 1.16 2791 8.11 14 4.07 137.4
27 Scott Hall, North Texas QB SR 12 237 134 56.54 4 1.69 1818 7.67 14 5.91 137.1
28 Jordan Palmer, UTEP QB SO 12 366 213 58.20 18 4.92 2818 7.70 26 7.10 136.5
29 Brandon Hassell, TCU QB SR 10 217 123 56.68 3 1.38 1724 7.94 10 4.61 135.9
30 Marques Hagans, Virginia QB JR 12 261 164 62.84 5 1.92 2024 7.75 9 3.45 135.5
31 Timmy Chang, Hawaii QB SR 13 602 358 59.47 13 2.16 4258 7.07 38 6.31 135.4
32 Paul Pinegar, Fresno St. QB JR 12 292 173 59.25 15 5.14 2099 7.19 23 7.88 135.3
33 Tyler Palko, Pittsburgh QB SO 12 409 230 56.23 7 1.71 3067 7.50 24 5.87 135.2
34 Darian Durant, North Carolina QB SR 12 299 178 59.53 9 3.01 2238 7.48 17 5.69 135.1
35 Jay Cutler, Vanderbilt QB JR 11 241 147 61.00 5 2.07 1844 7.65 10 4.15 134.8
36 Paul Peterson, Boston College QB SR 11 355 221 62.25 10 2.82 2594 7.31 18 5.07 134.7
37 Dan Orlovsky, Connecticut QB SR 12 457 288 63.02 15 3.28 3354 7.34 23 5.03 134.7
38 Drew Tate, Iowa QB SO 12 375 233 62.13 14 3.73 2786 7.43 20 5.33 134.7
39 Bryan Randall, Virginia Tech QB SR 13 306 170 55.56 9 2.94 2264 7.40 21 6.86 134.5
40 Joshua Cribbs, Kent St. QB SR 10 335 216 64.48 6 1.79 2215 6.61 17 5.07 133.2
41 Matt Jones, Arkansas QB SR 11 264 151 57.20 12 4.55 2073 7.85 15 5.68 132.8
42 Chad Henne, Michigan QB FR 12 399 240 60.15 12 3.01 2743 6.87 25 6.27 132.6
43 Drew Olson, UCLA QB JR 12 341 196 57.48 13 3.81 2565 7.52 20 5.87 132.4
44 Drew Stanton, Michigan St. QB JR 10 220 141 64.09 6 2.73 1601 7.28 8 3.64 131.8
45 Kellen Clemens, Oregon QB JR 11 372 223 59.95 10 2.69 2548 6.85 22 5.91 131.6
46 Steven Moffett, UCF QB SO 10 229 147 64.19 10 4.37 1721 7.52 9 3.93 131.6
47 Dale Rogers, San Jose St. QB SR 11 181 96 53.04 8 4.42 1389 7.67 12 6.63 130.5
48 Kevin Kolb, Houston QB SO 11 353 198 56.09 6 1.70 2766 7.84 11 3.12 128.8
49 Danny Wimprine, Memphis QB SR 12 398 225 56.53 14 3.52 2892 7.27 22 5.53 128.8
50 John Beck, Brigham Young QB SO 11 343 192 55.98 8 2.33 2563 7.47 15 4.37 128.5
51 Vince Young, Texas QB SO 12 250 148 59.20 11 4.40 1849 7.40 12 4.80 128.4


BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

quote:

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CMack - I'll probably do your original bet with the additional proviso that it's on only if Vince elects to come out. Combined with the injury out, that should make it doable.

He'd have to be taken 10 picks before Reggie for me to win.

CMack - I have a problem with the qualification on snaps because rookie QB's (either VY or RM) frequently don't get any snaps their rookie year. As QB's are always drafted higher, and players changing positions are usually hurt by that fact, I don't see why that's a deal breaker.

Are you in Houston so we can make it for meal?

---

No, I'm in Austin, but we can work something out. I think we are going to have a deal breaker, though--There's no way I'll take the bet unless you agree that Vince HAS to be drafted as a QB and has to take more snaps @ QB his rookie year than any other position. My argument is that VY isn't an NFL-caliber QB. I think he's going to be a great NFL player, just not as a QB.

You're damn right... in fact, if they weren't so thin at QB and didn't absolutely HAVE to have his rushing yards, they coud turn him into a badass slot receiver right now, and he would suck up three defensive players on every play. You absolutely could not take the chance on giving him the ball in space, especially with the short throws to that position; but there's no depth behind him whatsoever, so that's a pipe dream.

In fact... nah; unless they got another running back that can halfway throw the ball (like Vince) they've got nothing, but it would be a cool offensive play to line him up with a TB/QB behind him and a FB, have him set and then motion the L slot, TB take the snap in the shotgun with a FB blocker stepping up and throw the ball to him in motion with either a 1 on 1 situation or no cover at all. Smells like a big gainer, defensive coordinator's nightmare, and the offensive coach would look like a genius if they pulled it off... that pretty much leaves out Davis and Brown.

Will Reggie apply his patented "fetal flop" move in the Pros?

quote:

---

quote:
because VY is not a caretaker QB on a team built around defense


He isn't?

---

I can only conclude that you didn't watch the Okie State game. Or the Kansas game. Or the Tech game. Or the Rose Bowl.

Texas, w/ VY at the helm, scores a significantly higher % of their drives than w/ Simms, Mock, or Applewhite at the helm.

Cedric rushed for a lot of yards, yet Young still accounted for more than 3000 yards of offense.

So...no, he isn't.

quote:

---

IA National Player Report
Total Offense

7 Reggie McNeal, Texas A&M QB JR 12 151 932 214 718 344 2791 495 3509 7.09 292.4
8 Kyle Orton, Purdue QB SR 11 80 284 172 112 389 3090 469 3202 6.83 291.1
9 Derek Anderson, Oregon St. QB SR 12 75 147 299 -152 515 3615 590 3463 5.87 288.6
10 Bruce Gradkowski, Toledo QB JR 13 91 331 140 191 399 3518 490 3709 7.57 285.3
11 Walter Washington, Temple QB JR 11 222 1104 215 889 332 2207 554 3096 5.59 281.5
12 Ryan Hart, Rutgers QB JR 11 46 74 167 -93 453 3154 499 3061 6.13 278.3
13 Josh Betts, Miami (Ohio) QB JR 13 83 314 228 86 444 3510 527 3596 6.82 276.6
14 Andrew Walter, Arizona St. QB SR 11 58 112 224 -112 426 3150 484 3038 6.28 276.2
15 Dan Orlovsky, Connecticut QB SR 12 32 79 120 -41 457 3354 489 3313 6.78 276.1
16 Chris Leak, Florida QB SO 12 61 229 150 79 399 3197 460 3276 7.12 273.0
17 Jared Zabransky, Boise St. QB SO 12 130 570 244 326 327 2927 457 3253 7.12 271.1
18 Tyler Palko, Pittsburgh QB SO 12 129 469 330 139 409 3067 538 3206 5.96 267.2
19 Steven Jyles, La.-Monroe QB JR 11 150 703 116 587 366 2322 516 2909 5.64 264.5
20 Jerry Babb, La.-Lafayette QB SO 11 101 630 132 498 385 2365 486 2863 5.89 260.3
21 Clint Marks, Middle Tenn. St. QB SO 11 73 242 129 113 368 2749 441 2862 6.49 260.2
22 Brett Basanez, Northwestern QB JR 12 83 361 103 258 460 2838 543 3096 5.70 258.0
23 Kevin Kolb, Houston QB SO 11 118 354 303 51 353 2766 471 2817 5.98 256.1
24 Darrell Hackney, UAB QB JR 12 81 196 240 -44 358 3070 439 3026 6.89 252.2
25 Matt Leinart, Southern California QB JR 13 49 143 187 -44 412 3322 461 3278 7.11 252.2
26 Danny Wimprine, Memphis QB SR 12 57 187 75 112 398 2892 455 3004 6.60 250.3
27 Brad Smith, Missouri QB JR 11 165 791 238 553 369 2185 534 2738 5.13 248.9
27 Kellen Clemens, Oregon QB JR 11 118 445 255 190 372 2548 490 2738 5.59 248.9
29 Gino Guidugli, Cincinnati QB SR 11 43 165 75 90 342 2633 385 2723 7.07 247.5
30 Matt Jones, Arkansas QB SR 11 83 735 113 622 264 2073 347 2695 7.77 245.0
31 Stefan Lefors, Louisville QB SR 12 71 398 65 333 257 2596 328 2929 8.93 244.1
32 Vince Young, Texas QB SO 12 167 1189 110 1079 250 1849 417 2928 7.02 244.0

---

UHHH... no he didnt

[This message has been edited by jasonbaconAG91 (edited 6/15/2005 12:27a).]

[This message has been edited by jasonbaconAG91 (edited 6/15/2005 12:28a).]

[This message has been edited by jasonbaconAG91 (edited 6/15/2005 12:28a).]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Vince Young is a monster to tackle and I would love to have him lining up in the A&M backfield, but I just wouldn't want him to be our quarterback.

At least we can all agree that if VY was the the HB with Reggie under center (combined with our receivers and t.u.'s o-line), there would be no defense in the country who could contain us.

It would be sick.

----------------------------------------------------
Are you ready for my fresh produce?

3,000 yards.... 2,000 yards....

Is there really any difference when you're an art history major?

quote:

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Oh, and on a serious note, I'm not sure why NFL prospects of VY and RM keep popping up as if they prove something. Whatever your prognostications, who cares? What possible relevance does it have when evaluating college performance?

While I wish all Texas players the best of luck in the NFL, the only thing that matters to me is what they do in the orange and white.

---

agreed, except for id replace the texas players and orange and white w/ A&M players and Maroon and white.

CMack - It's a hard bet to structure then. Most rookie QB's, and I don't think Vince will be the best coming out, don't get any or much playing time the first year. If we try to stretch it out longer than that, it gets to long to be meaningful.

I'd be willing to make it on gentlemen's terms where we determine whether he's considered by his team to be a QB or some other position based on all available information, and if we can determine it to both of our satisfaction, the bet is paid. I won't do it based on snaps the first year because I doubt he'll get any or many.

Uva Uvum Vivendo Varia Fit

Last night, I watched the 2004 T+1 game followed by the Rose Bowl.

Regarding the first, you had the team take their names of their jerseys. Next, you might take the ATM off the helmets.

Regarding the second, I doubt any of you Ags ever watched much of it. You couldn't stand it.

Uva Uvum Vivendo Varia Fit

quote:

---

Texas, w/ VY at the helm, scores a significantly higher % of their drives than w/ Simms, Mock, or Applewhite at the helm.

---

They do? Do you actually have a stat for that?

Here's what I found (from the tu official athletic website). This is average ppg for the season, which I would imagine would translate well to scoring on % of their drives:

2004: 35.2 ppg. This was VY's first year as a full-time starter.
1998: 36.3 ppg. Applewhite was the QB.
1999: 34.2 ppg. Applewhite.
2000: 38.6 ppg. Both Applewhite + Simms.
2001: 39.2 ppg. Simms.



[This message has been edited by CMack11 (edited 6/15/2005 9:54a).]

quote:

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At least we can all agree that if VY was the the HB with Reggie under center (combined with our receivers and t.u.'s o-line), there would be no defense in the country who could contain us.

---

Vince is WAY too tall to play HB.

tmr - Don't confuse them with facts.

BTW, in an article in DCTF, not the one about the team, VY was listed at 6' 7", 230. I call BS. He's not taller than 6' 6", though he may be at 232.

Uva Uvum Vivendo Varia Fit

Well that depends on if he's done growing. He was only 6'5" when he arrived.