What I'd like to know is how Hoover would solve the illegal problem. If he considers it a problem, of course.


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He would remove all laws because if one innocent person is ever punished or inconvenienced in anyway then the law "is a travesty". All laws.

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It has always been that American Citizens should never have to produce ID unless being detained or arrested

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Actually, there are plenty of good reasons to have to produce ID, since there's a thing called "gasp" identity theft.

Just today I had to show proof to get something notarized. I also had to show my ID checking into a hotel and using my credit card the other day.

I'm sure you're cool with those things, but my lord let's not ask people to prove who they are when they vote for our President of the United States! That's insane!

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And will failure to produce one in these situations causes you to go to jail?

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There's a simple solution to this problem: carry your damn DL with you and you won't have to worry about anything. Unless you're here illegally of course.

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A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY,CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR ARIZONA CONSTITUTION.

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Why do I feel like this portion of the law will be ignored by Hoover.

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It has always been that American Citizens should never have to produce ID unless being detained or arrested.

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This doesn't fly. You are required to produce ID in a number of situations OTHER than being arrested. If you look young and are drinking in public, you are required to produce ID for instance. Is this not age discrimination?

Why are you not protesting this every day? Why is this particular debate different? It's different because it IS about racial profiling not about being punished for failure to produce ID.

Of course what it is REALLY about is protecting a potential voting block of millions for liberal democrats in wayward western states. If you can't admit this then you are hopeless.

anyone remember vicente fox going around the border states trying to shame americans for not allowing illegals when his country's southern border resembles that of north korea's?

also, it's not racial profiling...it's quicker.

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Why should we be more lax in immigration privileges than we are in driving privileges?
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Driving is a privilege. Not having to produce ID, unless involved with a crime, is a right.

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Not having to produce ID is not a right. And entering this country is a privilege too. Police can set up check points for ID and insurance and have in the past for various reasons. So I ask again why should we be more lax in enforcing immigration than driving?

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The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
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The Constitution....maybe you should read it sometime.

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Asking someone to produce ID to make sure they aren’t violating sovereign soil in violation of federal law is not an unreasonable search or seizure.

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I can't wait to vote for a Hispanic President.

Some of your heads are going to explode.

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No problem with a Hispanic President. In order to be eligible they would have to be a citizen. As long as I support their policy stances I’d vote for them. No problem. Trying to paint immigration enforcement as racism is the biggest BS red herring I’ve ever seen.

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can look at these guys and tell you whether or not they fit the 'profile' of an illegal immigrant. Not saying they are, but that would be all the 'probably cause' you would need, in my opinion, to at the very least question them.
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So you are saying that being Hispanic is probable cause for a search and seizure.

Got it.

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Are you illiterate? That is not what he said. He said that through experience he can pick out which ones likely are. Just like through experience he can look at a bunch of white guys and pick out the ones that are likely redneck.

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That's interesting...passively allowing illegal Mexican drug cartels into our border to kill our citizens is the most un-American thing I can think of.
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They who would trade liberty for security soon have none and deserve neither. (Both Franklin 1775 and Thomas Jefferson said variations of this about the same time of the Founding of the United States)
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A) to call this a breach of liberty is a stretch. Asking ID is not uncommon in our everyday life. It will not keep you from living your life.
B) You quoted slave owners to point out how racist this policy is.

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The "Probable Cause" here amounts to "not being white."

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It really doesn’t. In other areas of the country the illegal alien problem is less Hispanic and more euro. Trained law enforcement can pick up on indicators that have nothing to do with race.

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Because they don't want to be harassed by cops based on their skin color....which is exactly what this bill calls for.

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“Can I see some identification” is not harassment. I have never felt harassed when asked that question. If you need ID to be somewhere(airport, bar, driving a car, in a country) then show the ID and be on your way.

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I don't think spending a few nights in jail is the same thing as "hurt feelings," but that's just me.

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In what convoluted scenario are citizens and legal immigrants being jailed for a few nights under this law?

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I have not changed the argument.

It has always been that American Citizens should never have to produce ID unless being detained or arrested.

If one citizen spends one minute in jail for not having ID, this law is a travesty.

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What country have you been living in? I am asked to produce my ID all the time. I was asked quite often by police during college to make sure I was legal to drink. You know why they asked me? I looked like I might not be! You know what else it happened to my Asian American friends even longer than me, because white people tend underage Asians in visual assessment. Was that racist too? Not one of my friends cried racist. They produced an ID and drank the damn beer.

I ask again why would citizens end up in jail? How would this be any worse than law abiding citizens being detained under other laws because of a mistake?

i'm kind of embarrassed we're actually arguing with this guy. how did this get to three pages without a salient point from the opposition?

there are legal means to enter the USA, freaking use them. I have to do the same when entering a foreign country and I don't cry about. I'm profiled as a freaking tourist in which that country tries like hell to grab/take all the money they can from me. If you liberals don't mind footing the bill for 15-30 million people, then go for, but don't ask me to do so. If you want to come and work here, take the steps to do so. If you want to take advantage of OUR system, ok, but like myself, you better do you your part in doing so.

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What I'd like to know is how Hoover would solve the illegal problem. If he considers it a problem, of course.

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Still waiting for a response to this one...and waiting...and waiting...

I agree that our immigration laws need updating, but we also have to enforce the laws. Maybe things would be better for everyone if the folks in Washington would do their part to get reasonable immigration laws, instead of race-baiting when people try to enforce the laws?

so, we already have laws requiring legal entrance into our country. however, our President is coming out and using words like "fairness" and "profiling" to stir the hornets nest. Is this a presidential way to approach very serious issues facing this nation?

No, but it's the Democratic way.

How difficult is it to have your ID on you at all times? I can't remember the last time I left the house without my ID.

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I can't remember the last time I left the house without my ID.

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I can. I had been driving my tractor in the rain, and I left my wallet on the counter so it wouldn't get wet. I had to run into town and forgot it.

The officer who stopped me wasn't particularly understanding and gave me a ticket for it anyway. He had probable cause since I was driving 7 MPH over the speed limit. Didn't give me a speeding ticket, but gave me one for no license and no insurance (which was also in my wallet).

Guess he was just racist against whitey.


[This message has been edited by Ellis Wyatt (edited 4/27/2010 12:01a).]

This thread is too valuable to let it slip...

Indeed.

During an on-air discussion yesterday about the newly enacted Arizona law on immigration, the geniuses at MSNBC had the following headline scrolling across the screen:

Law makes it a crime to be an illegal immigrant

You can't slip anything past them!

How to solve the illegal problem.

How about enforcing the laws that make it illegal to hire undocumented labor with real punishments that make it unprofitable to do so?

This goes from everybody from someone who hires someone to mow their yard to the big companies who love having a source of cheap labor who will put up with poor working conditions.

This will never happen, because the people who exploit illegal immigrant labor are rich and powerful and politically connected. It is politically much easier to attack the powerless.

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"reasonable suspicion exists

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In other words, being Mexican.

I agree with you Hoover. Damn that felt weird. That is one of the things Farmer's Branch is trying to do, but its tied up in the courts and being labeled Unconstitutional.

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How about enforcing the laws that make it illegal to hire undocumented labor with real punishments that make it unprofitable to do so?

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I honestly don't know a single person who doesn't agree.

I still think we need to employ many different tactics to stop the problem. What Arizona is doing is a good first step.

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In other words, being Mexican.

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They have specifically stated race, nationality, color, etc cannot be the "reasonable suspicion". This is no different than saying an officer needs probable cause to search your car, to pull you over, etc, etc.

How about not letting them flow relatively freely across the border? How about not providing no-cost social services and education? And then excusing their law-breaking behavior?

The real reason nothing will change is because the liberals in the country are salivating at the opportunity to create a new block of overwhelmingly Democratic voters.

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This doesn't fly. You are required to produce ID in a number of situations OTHER than being arrested. If you look young and are drinking in public, you are required to produce ID for instance. Is this not age discrimination?

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In this case you are being detained under the very reasonable suspicion you are committing a crime.

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Of course what it is REALLY about is protecting a potential voting block of millions for liberal democrats in wayward western states. If you can't admit this then you are hopeless.

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I would say that passing a law to harass and profile millions of Hispanics probably isn't going to win them many Hispanic votes in the next election. And with the Hispanic population growing, that is pretty stupid on the part of the GOP.

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This doesn't fly. You are required to produce ID in a number of situations OTHER than being arrested. If you look young and are drinking in public, you are required to produce ID for instance. Is this not age discrimination?

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In this case you are being detained under the very reasonable suspicion you are committing a crime.

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Of course what it is REALLY about is protecting a potential voting block of millions for liberal democrats in wayward western states. If you can't admit this then you are hopeless.

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I would say that passing a law to harass and profile millions of Hispanics probably isn't going to win them many Hispanic votes in the next election. And with the Hispanic population growing, that is pretty stupid on the part of the GOP.

Just had an idea. This is revolutionary...

We carve out a 5 mile wide canyon all along the border which allows the Gulf and the Pacific Ocean to merge creating the greatest moat in the history of humankind. Then, we create a TV show on Spike that allows immigrants to compete for immediate citizenship upon completing the 5 mile swim. Keep in mind, the distance is one thing, but we also have all types of animalia in play as well.

If they complete this, they deserve every right we can possibly offer.

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I would say that passing a law to harass and profile millions of Hispanics probably isn't going to win them many Hispanic votes in the next election. And with the Hispanic population growing, that is pretty stupid on the part of the GOP.

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So what the GOP should do is pander to a group that has broken the law?

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The officer who stopped me wasn't particularly understanding and gave me a ticket for it anyway. He had probable cause since I was driving 7 MPH over the speed limit. Didn't give me a speeding ticket, but gave me one for no license and no insurance (which was also in my wallet).

Guess he was just racist against whitey.

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Again, you were both being detained, and operating a motor vehicle, which is a privilege based upon you being able to prove you are licensed to do so.

I've thought about taking my DL out of my wallet and not carrying it with me. I don't drive and it would be a liability if lost or stolen.

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So what the GOP should do is pander to a group that has broken the law?

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It's against the law to be a Hispanic voter?

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How about not letting them flow relatively freely across the border? How about not providing no-cost social services and education? And then excusing their law-breaking behavior?

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They aren't coming here for the social services, they are coming here to work and flee a Mexico that is becoming a hell-hole.

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I would say that passing a law to harass and profile millions of Hispanics probably isn't going to win them many Hispanic votes in the next election. And with the Hispanic population growing, that is pretty stupid on the part of the GOP.

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Once again when you have absolutely nothing you play the race card. Have you read the bill Dwayne? Honestly have you read any of this bill?

It is worded to specifically avoid racist application of this. However its more convenient for you and for Dems if this is a racist bill, so you'll play that card time after time after time.

What part of this is racist?

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A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR ARIZONA CONSTITUTION.

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Don't blimp, don't deflect, don't ignore. What part of that is racist? What part of that is where you're getting all of your racist talk from? Please share.

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So what the GOP should do is pander to a group that has broken the law?


It's against the law to be a Hispanic voter?

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That isn't what he was saying.

You made the point that we should do nothing about millions of illegal immigrants because it would be stupid to anger a large voting block. Which goes right back to my point that the reason this whole fiasco is taking place is because democrats prefer allowing this egregious abuse of our country to secure themselves some votes, and you apparently think this is a good idea. Which is why everybody on this board thinks you are a big commie d**shbag.

You make it sound as if this law is going to make police pull people over and harrass them just because they look mexican which is nowhere to be found in the text of the law as posted on this thread many times. What this shows is your inherent distrust of law enforcement and your assumption than every non hispanic policeman is a racist. I'd call that profiling and you are guilty as hell. I can only assume that you are therefore projecting your own weaknesses on innocent people that you know nothing about. This is a classic liberal characterstic. Accuse every one else of your own deficiencies.