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Driving is a privilege. Freedom from unreasonable search and seizure is a right.

You aren't real smart, are you?

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Coming across a hispanic man near the Arizona border who speaks no english, has no ID and is driving a car not registered in his name is probable cause just as if he were carring a bag of crack in the passenger seat and stepped out with a lit joint

That's interesting...passively allowing illegal Mexican drug cartels into our border to kill our citizens is the most un-American thing I can think of.

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No, being a hispanic who speaks no english, works cheap manuel siclabor, is providing for many children and has no identification of any kind is probable cause

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So not having ID is probable cause for asking someone to produce ID.

I can't argue with that logic.

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That's interesting...passively allowing illegal Mexican drug cartels into our border to kill our citizens is the most un-American thing I can think of.

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They who would trade liberty for security soon have none and deserve neither. (Both Franklin 1775 and Thomas Jefferson said variations of this about the same time of the Founding of the United States)

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I think hoover just proved with that last one he is just trolling here...best to ignore him and move on.

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Driving is a privilege. Freedom from unreasonable search and seizure is a right.

You aren't real smart, are you?

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Is being in this counrty illegally a right? You seem to act like it is.

Like it or not, there is no perfect answer to enforcing the immigration laws. If a few people get offended because a law enforcement officer has the audacity to ask them about their citizenship status, who cares? It will make our country safer and enforce the laws already on the books which, if the U.S. govt. was doing its job, would already be enforced more efficiently.

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So, it follows that some are here legally. Unless you can tell me how you are going to tell the difference, then you are going to send legal citizens to jail for "failure to carry ID."

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And spare me the 'worst case scenario' that legal citizens would have to be sent to jail. As someone mentioned with the Border Patrol checkpoint example, LEO's are trained to use judgement based upon how their questions are answered. If they failed to carry ID, it is not guaranteed that they'd go to jail. But just to play devil's advocate, answer me this: I carry a photo ID on me at all times; why would it be such an atrocious expectation that any legal citizen would do the same thing?

As I said, we don't live in a perfect world. You think that I enjoy having to stand in a long line and go through sometimes invasive airport security screenings because some Islamic extremists decided it would be a good idea to fly planes into buildings (when I'm not, nor have I ever been, a terrorist and/or terrorist sympathizer)? Even I, with my well-spoken English and and fair skin, get asked at a Border Patrol checkpoint if I'm an American citizen. Do I care? Of course I don't; I know that they are trying to catch those who are trying to come here and milk our system, with no intention of ever going through the proper channels to acheive the right to be here. Seems to me that if you were really interested in people's rights and in 'fairness', you too would want our immigration laws to be enforced so that these ILLEGAL ALIENS' actions would not be infringing on the rights of every legal American citizen...

I bet you've been saving that little gem for some time now...the fundamental flaw in your usage however is that asking a SUSPECTED (with probable cause) illegal immigrant for ID is not a violation of one's liberties. Just as much as pulling a vehicle over for suspected DWI (with probable cause) is not a violation of one's liberties.

If either of the two authors you quoted were alive today, I doubt they would be amused with your smug liberalism. Nor would they be at all in favor of handicapping our law enforcement agencies so as not to inconvenience a few people.

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Freedom from unreasonable search and seizure is a right.

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Since when is asking for ID 'unreasonable'?

What is unreasonable is perpetuating a horrendous crime against the citizens of this country by establishing some arbitrary code known as 'racial profiling'.

As if the off chance that someone innocent might be slightly inconvenienced by having to show ID is somehow a greater crime than having billions of dollars in goods and services stolen by an illegal occupying population, not to mention the outright crimes that are commonplace along the border like theft and murder.

I'll never, ever understand why legal hispanics are such staunch advocates for illegals simply because they are also hispanic. They're wasting your tax dollars and raising your crime rates, too.

I suppose it's the same phenomena that makes black people vote for other black people regardless of party affiliation or character

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I bet you've been saving that little gem for some time now...the fundamental flaw in your usage however is that asking a SUSPECTED (with probable cause) illegal immigrant for ID is not a violation of one's liberties. Just as much as pulling a vehicle over for suspected DWI (with probable cause) is not a violation of one's liberties.

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The "Probable Cause" here amounts to "not being white."

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They who would trade liberty for security soon have none and deserve neither. (Both Franklin 1775 and Thomas Jefferson said variations of this about the same time of the Founding of the United States)

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Show me any party of this quote where it is violating a suspicous looking persons liberty by asking them a few simple questions about their legal right to be in this country...

While you're at it, show me where it says anything in the Constitution about a law enforcement officer stepping outside their power in doing the above; the quote you posted earlier doesn't seem to pertain, in my opinion.

I have a hispanic coworker and he absolutely despises illegal mexicans in the country

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I'll never, ever understand why legal hispanics are such staunch advocates for illegals simply because they are also hispanic. They're wasting your tax dollars and raising your crime rates, too.

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Because they don't want to be harassed by cops based on their skin color....which is exactly what this bill calls for.

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Since when is asking for ID 'unreasonable'?

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It's every bit as unreasonable as asking a voter to provide ID. Who does that?!

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Driving is a privilege.

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So is living legally in this country and reaping the benefits for doing so, yet you would rather protect a very few peoples potentially hurt feelings rather than protect EVER AMERICAN CITIZEN'S (plus legal immigrants) birthright.

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While you're at it, show me where it says anything in the Constitution about a law enforcement officer stepping outside their power in doing the above; the quote you posted earlier doesn't seem to pertain, in my opinion.

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It does..and in the opinion of the first court that deals with this law, it's going to be thrown out on its ass.

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So not having ID is probable cause for asking someone to produce ID.

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Why is this so unreasonable to you? When I get pulled over, the officer checks my plates and asks for my license and registration. If the car isnt registered to my name and I lack ID, at best I'm getting taken out of the car and a few phone calls are made. I'm likely going to end up at the county jail though on charges of grand theft auto and driving without a license.

Now if I'm hispanic and speak no english, why is such a big leap of faith to think I might be an illegal alien?

This is common sense. It isnt politically correct, but a 6 year old could tell you whats up here.

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rather protect a very few peoples potentially hurt feelings rather than protect EVER AMERICAN CITIZEN'S (plus legal immigrants) birthright.

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I don't think spending a few nights in jail is the same thing as "hurt feelings," but that's just me.

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Because they don't want to be harassed by cops based on their skin color

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Then just vote against the GD bill and stop marching in amnesty parades and throwing a fit every time we ship Pedro back across the border

[This message has been edited by BMEDAggie11 (edited 4/26/2010 1:51p).]

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Why is this so unreasonable to you?

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Not a big Joe Heller fan, I see.

I am. He was witty and amusing. You're neither. You're just an idiot

If its any consolation though, we hate you because you're an idiot, not because you're mexican

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hen just vote against the GD bill and stop marching in amnesty parades

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So I guess this doesn't apply to brown-skinned people:

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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

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I am. He was witty and amusing.

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I doubt you've ever read anything that didn't contain cereal within.

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I doubt you've ever read anything that didn't contain cereal within.

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Your mom falls into this category, dumbass...

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So they should be able to ask every hispanic they see for ID

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Nope.

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A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY,CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR ARIZONA CONSTITUTION.

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Basically this law just requires law enforcement officers to enforce immigration laws. If they arrest someone for an offense, they must verify the person is a legal resident and enforce the immigration laws. If they have knowledge someone is an illegal resident, they have to enforce the immigration laws. If "reasonable suspicion exists" that they person is not a legal resident, they must enforce immigration laws.

If folks in the federal government don't like the federal immigration laws that this law makes officers enforce, they should just change them.

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The "Probable Cause" here amounts to "not being white."

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Yes, you are right, I would imagine that most illegal immigrants FROM MEXICO into Arizona would not be white. Excellent point.

I think we should shoot all illegal aliens as trespassers.

We could set up gun tables near the border like carnival shooting galleries and charge per bullet. We would instantly cut our social services expenditures and raise additional revenue.



(I'm being sarcastic. We would never treat illegals here the same way the Mexicans treat illegals from the south.)

[This message has been edited by Ellis Wyatt (edited 4/26/2010 2:09p).]

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I bet you've been saving that little gem for some time now...the fundamental flaw in your usage however is that asking a SUSPECTED (with probable cause) illegal immigrant for ID is not a violation of one's liberties. Just as much as pulling a vehicle over for suspected DWI (with probable cause) is not a violation of one's liberties.
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The "Probable Cause" here amounts to "not being white."

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Again, it goes back to fitting the profile of an illegal alien. When young and middle aged white women from Canada start coming here illegally, forming gang cells and drug rings, living 10-deep in a one bedroom apartment, working jobs without paying taxes, popping out 8-10 kids and collecting welfare benefits without paying anything into the 'system',murdering ranchers, etc., etc., the list goes on, and on, and on, then we'll think about revising the 'profile' of an illegal immigrant. Until then, as has been said at length, 'if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck...'

Also, spare me that the 'probable cause' means 'not being white'. I know plenty of Mexican/Hispanic familes who are honest, hard working, hold-their-head-high types who are here legally. I would venture to guess that these are not the types that would be asked about their legal status. Again, there would undoubtedly be cases where they were, but this would just be part of dealing with this mess we have on our hands...

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I don't think spending a few nights in jail is the same thing as "hurt feelings," but that's just me.

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You are changing the argument. The position you people are taking is that it is a crime to be asked for ID because it is discriminatory based on the color of their skin and that otherwise innocent Americans that are brown skinned will get unreasonably harassed by law enforcement.

With the quoted comment above you are now suggesting that the problem is in the failure to prove ID. Failure to prove ID is a different argument.

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The "Probable Cause" here amounts to "not being white."

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No that is specifically forbidden in the bill. Read the bill before you spout off what you saw on some news story. http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.pdf

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A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY,CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR ARIZONA CONSTITUTION.

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[This message has been edited by Frankie T (edited 4/26/2010 2:09p).]

I have not changed the argument.

It has always been that American Citizens should never have to produce ID unless being detained or arrested.

If one citizen spends one minute in jail for not having ID, this law is a travesty.

Dwayne citizens still do not have to produce proof of legal residency unless they are detained or unless "reasonable suspicion exists" they are illegal immigrants.

So there's no change there. All this bill does is enforce current immigration laws.

Hoover, I'm betting you're a Mavs fan. You are beginning to sound like one, screaming at the injustice of it all...

Hoover, I just realized something. Over the course of this thread...