fka ftc said:

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Looks like they scrape a 12% fee off the topsi unless I read it wrong that may cause a higher price.

There are lots of iterations of these outside of ski resorts. Would be curious is these make it more convenient to have 1031 exchanges as an added incentive (i.e. does this setup make it easier to meet the requirements for investment property).

My personal preference is to spend second home money on vacations, but thats based on our preferences and not solely on a financial analysis.

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Agreed - that's where the issue is... I'm willing to invest some capital in a place to own but don't want to feel like I've got to go there every chance we get or it's a total drag on finances.

Something with income opportunity let's you say "nah, we're doing Mexico for spring break this year" and then make a little dough.

It does keep me going back to just wanting to buy some land further out that's *close* to a ski place - like 45 mins. That way, sure, you can go skiing if you want but it's more a summer place.

If you're wanting to do it up and do Whistler or Banff or something like that, you don't feel tethered to 1 mountain.

My FIL has owned a cabin in Clark outside Steamboat for nearly 10 years. He bought it purposely for the summer, near all the best fishing spots. However, the winter is brutal considering it's a 40-45 minute drive to the mountain. Every day you're spending 2 hours driving back and forth. We always talk about how we'd rather have a place in town and then drive out to fish in the summer, not the other way around.

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It does keep me going back to just wanting to buy some land further out that's *close* to a ski place - like 45 mins. That way, sure, you can go skiing if you want but it's more a summer place.

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I think about t that a lot too and have some lots/land I'm going to look at this summer. The big issue there is time and cost to build. In the area we're interested in ...it's at least a 2 - 3 year process (including plans, permitting, etc.). And the cost to build is $600-700/ft minimum or so I've been told by several people who would know. I assume it's at least slightly better in more populated areas that are less remote. But damn - that's a long, expensive process.

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We always talk about how we'd rather have a place in town and then drive out to fish in the summer, not the other way around.

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Thanks for that perspective. An in between alternative that I'm considering is a smaller town 45ish minutes from the main ski mountain town. Much cheaper, still in mountains, relatively close to resort town - but still with some amenities.

MAS444 said:

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We always talk about how we'd rather have a place in town and then drive out to fish in the summer, not the other way around.

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Thanks for that perspective. An in between alternative that I'm considering is a smaller town 45ish minutes from the main ski mountain town. Much cheaper, still in mountains, relatively close to resort town - but still with some amenities.

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It's all relative. If money wasn't an issue? Hell yeah, ski in/ski out. Hell, why not have both?

Something 45 mins outside town is likely a fraction of being in a resort town. Even in a town like Steamboat.

I've heard the build process is long, that's fine - an option like that is much more permanent and likely a retirement place.

600-700/sqft doesn't seem right. Maybe for really high end or just recently as building prices (lumber in particular) sky rocketed. Or something REALLY far out.

A modular or manufactured home could be the way to go (which is why I think you see many of these in smaller mountain towns - outside of just being poor).

Really though, we all just wish mom and dad had bought something up there 20 years ago that has increased in value 4-5 times over, that we get to use for free and will inherit some day.

I know there's a ton of stories like this...but my wife and I rented a true ski in/ski out house in Telluride/Mountain Village 10 years ago. 4 BR/4BA, nice deck/balcony looking out onto creek and ski run, etc. The house was also for sale for just under $1MM at that time. Now, it's hard to get a 2/2 condo there for much less than $2MM. That same house would be 3 - 4 MM at least today...just 10 years later.

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600-700/sqft doesn't seem right. Maybe for really high end or just recently as building prices (lumber in particular) sky rocketed. Or something REALLY far out.

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Really high end in/around Telluride costs way more than that. We were talking "custom"...but nothing over the top. Again, this is from several sources - realtors, builders, home/property owners, etc. Distance, labor and demand are really big factors in that. I haven't really drilled down too deep on it though. I'm guessing the closer you get to Ridgeway or even Montrose, the costs could go down significantly.

Montrose wouldn't be a bad spot to have a place and still be close to ski town stuff. I am not too far from Telluride, which we love. Yes, the building process and costs you posted are true. I got 6 months into a new build in 2020 and bailed on it due to frustration and then covid issues. If you need to bounce any ideas off someone, happy to help.

Hoyt - I'm going to email you if that's okay.

Sure thing. We actually met years ago at WAIH while I still lived in Houston. Email is in profile.

I think your numbers are accurate there. Colorado is one of the states we do a lot of custom construction financing and it's amazing what people spend.

jja79 said:

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I think your numbers are accurate there. Colorado is one of the states we do a lot of custom construction financing and it's amazing what people spend.

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interesting.

I'd be curious to see the breakdown on this stuff.. i.e. land, grading, electrical to the site, drilling a well, other utilities... etc.

I'm sure things can vary wildly depending on your specific location on the parcel of land.

You see some stuff further out that goes for 3-400/sqft + land... maybe it's just the recent run up in construction pricing.

I imagine the run up in costs around these parts was only exacerbated up there.

sadly... most of this conversation just makes me think it'll never happen. The window has closed on the Colorful state from massive population influx and price run-up.

MAS444's example of the Telluride house increasing 4x in value in that short time span is a microcosm of this.

Plenty of room left in Colorado. What it really needs is a larger airport in the sw corner of the state.

I understand the environmental purists may not want this, but it would open a large area for growth for those desiring mountain living.

Personally, I have no desire to ski and just want to live permanently perched on the side of a mountain where I can just enjoy the beauty.

Blast from the past! Email sent.

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Taxes are laughably low in Colorado, although property values sort of make up for that.

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not when it's paid off lol.

MAS444 said:

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The one currently available in Telluride for $1MM for a 1/8 share was purchased a little over a year ago for $6.7MM. So in this case, the valuation does seem a little high (even with a little appreciation)...but not too crazy.

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If I'm reading it right, that 1/8 share price not only includes the market value of home that pacaso pays, but also the money to furnish it.


"Home upgrades and closing. We give each home a design makeover to create livable luxury a beautifully and comfortably designed home, with all the amenities you need to enjoy your stay. This includes big-ticket items, like high-end furnishings and state-of-the-art appliances, and small details, like board games and handy kitchen gadgets. Our professional interior designers customize each home, and we install the latest home technology and smart home features. We also calculate the real estate transaction costs (agent commissions, inspections and closing costs)."


If you bought that $6.7m home, it would be empty right? How much are you gonna spend to furnish it like a multimillion dollar home should be furnished? I bet that could easily get upwards of $1m.


The 1/8 price also includes;
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• Pacaso service fee. This one-time fee covers the costs of buyer aggregation (finding and vetting qualified owners) and LLC formation (including legal fees).

• Financing. For buyers who choose to finance up to 70% of their purchase through Pacaso's banking partners, a financing fee will be assessed at closing."

I agree - doesn't seem like a crazy markup at all.

No way there's 1.3mm of furniture in these things.

Although it's nice, I'd say… 75k - 100k tops. Unless some of the furnishings are really construction items (faucets, lighting, etc.)

One time fee to draft a standard LLC agreement? Lol. Maybe $5k. Annual taxes for 8 K1s? Maybe 3k. Probably less.

The premium is for turnkey convenience and "I don't want to have to mess with this"

The monthly fees seem really high. As in almost $12k month of just "operating expenses"

ChoppinDs40 said:

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No way there's 1.3mm of furniture in these things.

Although it's nice, I'd say… 75k - 100k tops. Unless some of the furnishings are really construction items (faucets, lighting, etc.)

One time fee to draft a standard LLC agreement? Lol. Maybe $5k. Annual taxes for 8 K1s? Maybe 3k. Probably less.

The premium is for turnkey convenience and "I don't want to have to mess with this"

The monthly fees seem really high. As in almost $12k month of just "operating expenses"

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For high end homes it isn't uncommon for owners to have furniture & personal property inclusions in the contract, or otherwise which are conveyed for $1MM+, and deducted from the seller's net profit amount used for capital gains.

I've completed a few appraisals over in Pitkin County, and allot in Carbondale/Glenwood, and ridiculous furniture/furnishing costs are not uncommon to see.

ChoppinDs40 said:

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No way there's 1.3mm of furniture in these things.

Although it's nice, I'd say… 75k - 100k tops. Unless some of the furnishings are really construction items (faucets, lighting, etc.)

One time fee to draft a standard LLC agreement? Lol. Maybe $5k. Annual taxes for 8 K1s? Maybe 3k. Probably less.

The premium is for turnkey convenience and "I don't want to have to mess with this"

The monthly fees seem really high. As in almost $12k month of just "operating expenses"

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I wasn't going to rebuttal because I have no experience or examples of what furnishing a multimillion dollar home would be, just my common sense, but since the poster above is backing it up a bit;

$75k aint jack**** to furnish/tech outfit/appliances, etc for a $6-$7m home. $75k is on par with maybe a $1m home.

Kitchen appliances alone is pushing $50k. High end fridges and stoves are $15k a piece easily. Viking, Wolf, etc.

My wife and I went to a $4m open house in Breck on the mountain last year; the realtor told us the toilet in the master bathroom alone was like $7k (It came up because we peeked in there and it lit up and opened lol)
It had motion sensor under lid lighting with auto open open lid, autoclean, wash and dry bidget function.. etc.
he went on to mention the smart glass windows in the room too.. Tens of thousands of dollars.

I suppose most 'regular' people maybe don't even know this stuff exists, so they assume the $8m house has a $150 lowes commode and a $3k french door fridge in it lol. Far from the truth, especially a home that is under the guise of this particular 'fractional ownership' program Pacaso, which is clearly supposed to exude high end.

Anyway -
Kitchen appliances +everything you need in a kitchen $75k
Living/Dining room furnish (furniture, art,lighting,rugs,decor, tech) - $100k
Each bedroom furnish + linens $30-$40k
Each Restroom - $5k
So a 4/4, that's $150k+ for bed/bath
Extra spaces/game rooms/theater - $50-$100k+
Garage - $25-$50k (floor treatment, built ins, etc)
Patio/Outside - ???? outdoor kitchens, pools, etc etc.
Maybe a tech like smart glass $100k

Buyers in this range aren't buying furniture off the shelf.. not any shelf that you or I shop.

Getting over $500k quickly.

10%-15% of purchase cost is not a high budget to furnish a house.

I'm on your side, aka I agree the furnishing costs are up there. But most the appliances you're talking about are probably included in the home price. Seems even the fridge is on these high end homes.

Same for the upgraded toilets, baths, etc.

That being said, I wouldn't be shocked if just the couch in some of these houses was $20k+

75k - 100k is light for these kind of homes.

htxag09 said:

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I'm on your side, aka I agree the furnishing costs are up there. But most the appliances you're talking about are probably included in the home price. Seems even the fridge is on these high end homes.

Same for the upgraded toilets, baths, etc.

That being said, I wouldn't be shocked if just the couch in some of these houses was $20k+

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Def. some of that might come with the house.. or it might not and Pacaso may upgrade that stuff. I don't know. But furniture, lighting, rugs, tables, chairs, beds, linens/pillows, art, tech, AV/TVs, etc.. is easily into the hundreds of thousands on a $7m home.

Remember (directed to ChoppinDs40), it is fully furnished as if someone lives there. When a typical person moves, they already have all their kitchen stuff, stuff on the walls and knickknacks, bathroom/bedroom stuff, TVs and A/V stuff, possibly even beds or dining table, etc. They might just need to buy a few new pieces of furniture.

This company buying is going from NOTHING/totally empty house, to fully livable. I mean, you can spend $500 a single freaken skillet if you want to.

Again, I agree with you 100%. Just pointing out that the Wolf, Viking, etc brand range was 100% included when the house was purchased. The fridge probably was as well. These level homes are expected to come with a complete, top of the line, appliance package.

htxag09 said:

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Again, I agree with you 100%. Just pointing out that the Wolf, Viking, etc brand range was 100% included when the house was purchased. The fridge probably was as well. These level homes are expected to come with a complete, top of the line, appliance package.

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I was just considering this Pacaso may purchase a new house in some markets. Preowned home, yes, it's there, but maybe not on a new home.

Yeah.. personally owned $8mm houses will have INSANE fixtures, art, decorations etc. special silestone from Africa flown in and handpicked by trophy wife #3.

Pacaso ain't about to put that kind of stuff in these things. They're looking to make a profit.

I've looked through a lot of these and yea, it's nice but there isn't $1mm worth of stuff in here. There aren't 8k OLEDs or SONOS in every room. The "tech" is equivalent to about 7-8 flat screens at probably $1k/pop.

I know appliances can be crazy… have a 12k oven and $4k fridge of my own so I know ultra luxury when I see it (and I don't have ultra).

200,000 on furniture is some celebrity level stuff… these places aren't that.

Not trying to get into an argument on how much housing is…

Here's an almost $10mm brand new home in park city.

Over $1mm in furnishings and tech would be extreme.

https://www.pacaso.com/listings/1406-park-avenue-park-city-ut/b95490b3-3f9d-4baa-9ad7-4538c4d4c33c

Unless of course there's some $20,000 painting on the wall of Julius Caesar's marble Roman bath…

Yeah, the fridge in this thing was probably $35k. Range ..5?

$1mm on stuff like that can go a long way.

One thing I haven't seen discussed here, unless I missed it, is potential restrictions on "fractional" ownership. Many of the resort towns have started trying to restrict short term rentals and fractional ownership. There's always exceptions and loopholes, but something to keep in mind

Example: to have a short term rental in Breckinridge, you have to have a business license. Couple years ago they put a cap on the number of licenses available at 2200. There were 2800 in existence at that time. License does not transfer on sale. There has also been varying levels of discussion at the city level about also restricting fractional ownership. Not sure where things stand currently regarding that though.

Following…

Currently looking in Ridgway, CO for a lot to build on. Would love to connect with any AGS in that particular area.

How far are you down that road in Ridgway? Looking in town, the golf course community, acreage,…? Talked to any builders? Ridgway is definitely a possibility here too.

Just messaged you…

Responded.