Starting to consider purchasing a property in CO within the next 3 years and trying to run some numbers.

Just cruising realtor.com app seems to give false numbers on "monthly cost"

I know property taxes are in no way comparable in CO to TX (much lower for a similarly priced home). What other items have differences?

In DFW we have "high" homeowners insurance due to tornadoes/hail. Some of these "insurance" amounts on realtor seem outrageous- like 3-4k for a 2/3br condo. Am I missing something?

I'm considering whatever we do as a STR to help cover the note while we use it for 3-5 weeks per year.

Where in Colorado?

MAS444 said:

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Where in Colorado?

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Grand County or Rio Grande County (Winter Park/Fraser or Southfork)

My personal opinion, unless I was buying something with land or a SF detached property then I would actually consider time share route or the growing in popularity route of co-owning with 8 to 12 other owners (I.e. fractional ownership).

For just 3-5 weeks a year, I would not want the responsibility of being the sole owner of a property. For a condo, that just speaks timeshare with a different name to me.

That's my personal opinion FWIW. On the insurance, I would think condos may be hire due to being attached to other dwelling units. Could be higher because of perceived increasing fire risks. Just a guess.

Insurance spiked after the 2020 fire season and with inflation cost to rebuild in more remote places is high.

With how housing has jumped, unless you plan on retiring here one day, probably doesn't fiscally make sense for as little as 3 weeks a year

I'm looking at land, condos (like 12 units per building) townhouses, etc.

Makes sense on insurance with rebuild rates up there.

I will never do a timeshare, would rather just rent when I want to go rather than getting "this week" every other year.

FWIW, it would definitely morph into a longer term stay at some point. Either for the summer or letting family use it.

This would be less of an investment property long term.

Roger that. I will be following, please update. Wife and I are headed to the mountains when our 13yo heads out on his own. Outside of a somewhat nearby airport and access to healthcare, though telemed improvements may provide additional freedom on that.

While I'd like a turnkey place I'm likely leaning more towards buying 5-10 acres and then building on down the road. Some place where I can put in septic, water, and electricity and park our RV for some camping and hunting.

Our insurance is current premium is $9849. It jumped a lot because of the fires. We have a log home in the mountains on 8 acres. You're also extremely limited on who insured properties up here. We, as well as every single one of our neighbors, has Farmers because they insure in fire prone areas.

GunRangeGal said:

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Our insurance is current premium is $9849. It jumped a lot because of the fires. We have a log home in the mountains on 8 acres. You're also extremely limited on who insured properties up here. We, as well as every single one of our neighbors, has Farmers because they insure in fire prone areas.

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Holy ****e. What was it before? Or is this like an HGTV/travel channel log home?

There are a couple of guys on here that own property in the Crested Butte area and have done very well using it as an investment property. I've done well on my condo in Fort Collins, also an investment property. Same with my brother, who has a SFH near DU and has done well.

Taxes are laughably low in Colorado, although property values sort of make up for that. Insurance has historically been very low as well, although I think that's about to change quickly as I just got my insurance renewal notice for my condo.

I'm not a global warming guy, but something to pay attention to, especially in SW Colorado in Rio Grande and La Plata, is water is becoming scarce. It's a fact. My parents recently sold a 2nd home in Durango after owning it for 20+ years and the rivers and reservoirs are alarmingly low. The fishing is nearly gone in SW Colorado. I don't think Summit/Eagle/Grand counties have this issue, but I could be wrong.

ChoppinDs40 said:

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While I'd like a turnkey place I'm likely leaning more towards buying 5-10 acres and then building on down the road. Some place where I can put in septic, water, and electricity and park our RV for some camping and hunting.

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I've been keeping an eye on smaller pieces of land in Teller County. Also from a long term investment perspective. Would like a small cabin (1,000 sq ft or so) built that we could eventually split our time in Texas with. Water also seems to be a pretty consistent road block I have come across in my initial research.

We have have a true log home in Pagosa. Backs to the national forest. Our homeowners insurance is very reasonable. Got from State Farm. They have been providing insurance for us the past 38 years.

My neighbors had their insurance cancelled recently. Due to being a log home that backs to the national forest. I hear of outrageous costs from other neighbors so I guess it depends who you are with.

I think second home ownership is inexpensive in Colorado. Taxes are very low; utilities are inexpensive, no lawn maintenance 7 months out of the year, ability to turn off auto insurance while not there, etc.

South Platte said:

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There are a couple of guys on here that own property in the Crested Butte area and have done very well using it as an investment property. I've done well on my condo in Fort Collins, also an investment property. Same with my brother, who has a SFH near DU and has done well.

Taxes are laughably low in Colorado, although property values sort of make up for that. Insurance has historically been very low as well, although I think that's about to change quickly as I just got my insurance renewal notice for my condo.

I'm not a global warming guy, but something to pay attention to, especially in SW Colorado in Rio Grande and La Plata, is water is becoming scarce. It's a fact. My parents recently sold a 2nd home in Durango after owning it for 20+ years and the rivers and reservoirs are alarmingly low. The fishing is nearly gone in SW Colorado. I don't think Summit/Eagle/Grand counties have this issue, but I could be wrong.

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thanks, that's good insight. I imagine Grand is fine due to more rivers and snowfall.

As far as Rio Grande and Alamosa counties, I would say with them being in the San Luis Valley.. no way! then I read this..

A 150-year-old San Luis Valley farm stops growing food to save a shrinking water supply. It might be the first deal of its kind in the country | Colorado Public Radio (cpr.org)

interesting and a good note.

We had a house in Colorado Springs (sold it last year).

The taxes were hundreds of dollars, not thousands.

fka ftc said:

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My personal opinion, unless I was buying something with land or a SF detached property then I would actually consider time share route or the growing in popularity route of co-owning with 8 to 12 other owners (I.e. fractional ownership).


For just 3-5 weeks a year, I would not want the responsibility of being the sole owner of a property. For a condo, that just speaks timeshare with a different name to me.

That's my personal opinion FWIW. On the insurance, I would think condos may be hire due to being attached to other dwelling units. Could be higher because of perceived increasing fire risks. Just a guess.

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I just recently became aware of fractional ownership. We were thinking about a condo at Purgatory. How does fractional ownership differ from a timeshare?

GunRangeGal said:

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Our insurance is current premium is $9849. It jumped a lot because of the fires. We have a log home in the mountains on 8 acres. You're also extremely limited on who insured properties up here. We, as well as every single one of our neighbors, has Farmers because they insure in fire prone areas.

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We are in NM mountains on the outskirts of a town that took a direct hit from a major fire last April, in a 2 year old stucco house on an acre and our updated premium in November was under 2k. We are with State Farm (but took some work to find someone willing to insure). I'm pretty shocked at the price difference.

What area/mountain?

Telluride

Thanks for sharing your experience. My partner is a golf guy and he and his wife have done fractionals in a couple of golf communities. To the point you made, it makes sense if you use it.

In his particular communities, the value of the properties and the fractional shares has ballooned, making for a good investment. But that was not their purpose of getting into them. More stability and availability and in areas the want to be.

One of our business partners has a house in Telluride through Pacaso. Absolutely loves the concept, ease, etc.

www.pacaso.com

I talked to someone on the lift one day who had just bought into a Pacaso home in Telluride. It certainly makes home ownership more affordable (very relatively speaking)...but I find it hard to justify if you can't use most of your 1/8 time/year, which seemingly means a lot of back. Would be much more doable if you lived close.

Just spent some time looking through their website. Seems pretty slick but that to me translates to higher fees to make it more "white glove".

Looks like a fairly complicated structure but they have certain dates that are "special dates" and those can only be booked one at a time per owner/share. Scheduling is also 2 years out (maybe longer?)

You can have 4 general stays booked at a time (stays from 30 days to 24 months out). Once inside 30 days, that booking falls off your cap and you can book another.

Anything inside 30 days is free game, which is pretty darn cool if you're close and truly want the "2nd home feel". Just look what's available in the next 30 days and head on up.

I presume there's no revenue opportunity here, just a way to own a VERY nice property at a, what you said, relatively affordable price. There's a new Breckenridge house that looks damn near ski in/ ski out that's valued at like $8mm!!!

I see a Telluride one worth something like that too. Just insane.


I think things like this purely depend on the owners in your group. Do they have kids and follow school calendar? Are they more summer vs ski people?

Personally, with my wife's schedule being dictated by the school year, these shared opportunities look to be far less useful, unfortunately. Similar to the timeshare route.

If I can only get 1 holiday (Christmas, 4th of July, Spring Break) every few years, it just won't get used.

Yeah I agree re: the other shareholders of the property. If they didn't have kids and we could get a lot of Spring Breaks - would make it much more useful to us. That would make a huge difference.

Yeah I get it. For the same price he says he went the pecaso route so he could stay in a multi-million dollar spacious house vs a small 2bed/2bath condo built in 1980 that would require a ton of upkeep. This way he doesnt even change a light bulb.

I will ask him about scheduling availability.

Makes sense. Appreciate you getting more info. if possible.

Makes sense. He just gives up the ability to go whenever he wants vs owning outright.

But, the places on Pacaso are ultra luxury. 4-6 BRs. Super high end furnishings. And ultra white glove treatment it appears.

If you don't have $8mm to drop but $1mm works, sounds like a decent balance if when you go doesn't matter as much.

Since there's no opportunity to make money from renting, you're just betting on the share/value appreciating enough to justify.

What's weird is I think these properties are overvalued based on the share model (for example, would a 1/8th for $8mm property actually sell, outright for $8mm? I don't think so).

However, when it comes to sell, your market is also much slimmer (maybe not?) because you're only selling to people who are ok with owning a fraction.

Seems to screw you going both ways. Paying a premium to buy and then potentially screwing yourself if you need to sell. Definitely ebbs/flows with the market a little more than 1beta.

Historically, fractional ownership is an interesting idea but had limited resale market appeal. There may have been some run up during covid, but overall they do not do well. Better than timeshare resale but a lot less liquid than SFR, TH or Condo.

exactly... hard to unload... but appears you're paying a premium for the actual value of the house... it's like you're getting dinged for not being able to afford a $4mm house... so you're 1/4 share actually costs you more than $1mm (basic math)...

But, I see the appeal. Getting to stay somewhere that swanky and calling it "yours" has its advantages...

Definitely appears to be a COVID run-up.

I don't know. May vary from location. But I just looked at aspen and Napa, didn't get into pulling comps based on exact locations but those valuations wouldn't surprise me in the least. Crap is $$$ there.

The one currently available in Telluride for $1MM for a 1/8 share was purchased a little over a year ago for $6.7MM. So in this case, the valuation does seem a little high (even with a little appreciation)...but not too crazy.

The Residences at The Little Nell is probably the most exclusive fractional(1/8) interest ownership in Colorado. They used to trade in a very narrow range of $1-2MM and was like that for years. We have stayed there several times and they are nice. There are a couple under contract now for $2.5MM that were 1/2 that before COVID. Hard to get excited about that price + $50M annual how + reserve fund for remodel + taxes + utilities.

Aspen/Snowmass and maybe Telluride are unique. Outside that, market demand for this type of ownership is limited. I have seen a few in Silverthorne/Frisco/Keystone/Breck area that did not have much market activity.

Looks like they scrape a 12% fee off the topsi unless I read it wrong that may cause a higher price.

There are lots of iterations of these outside of ski resorts. Would be curious is these make it more convenient to have 1031 exchanges as an added incentive (i.e. does this setup make it easier to meet the requirements for investment property).

My personal preference is to spend second home money on vacations, but thats based on our preferences and not solely on a financial analysis.

Aspen/Snowmass I get, that place is insane and ultra exclusive. I suppose Telluride is getting to that level also.

But $8mm for a house in Breckenridge is insane.

Some of the Park City ones are up there too.

Reasonable ones appear to be smaller Park City and then Tahoe items.

Good point in the market being small for these... I'm not surprised they're only in ultra-luxury places.

What I'd really be interested is in one of these new $1.3mm places or so in Winter Park/Durango. Nice townhomes... I'd definitely do 1/4 or 1/8th for $150k. @ 20% down and 6% mortgage, that's about $725/month (no taxes/insurance/hoa in there).

That's definitely something more palatable. The re-sale piece would always bother me... I bet some of these just get bought out by existing owners..

the other thread about STR would scare me though because I'm sure there's a thought you could turn that around, own it outright and then rent that sucker for a couple thousand a night.