Heineken-Ashi said:

---

Rancho said:

---

Thank you

---

And I wouldn't sleep on keeping a driving range. A place to bring my kids that's covered, where we can hit balls, they can play afterward, we can eat. I would be there weekly.

---

My struggle with the range is the space I'd need - we're targeting 10-15 acres for entire property

High fence it and have Trackman Range

Heineken-Ashi said:

---

Rancho said:

---

Thank you

---

And I wouldn't sleep on keeping a driving range. A place to bring my kids that's covered, where we can hit balls, they can play afterward, we can eat. I would be there weekly.

---

see my note about e about Swansons.

Ragoo said:

---

Heineken-Ashi said:

---

Rancho said:

---

Thank you

---

And I wouldn't sleep on keeping a driving range. A place to bring my kids that's covered, where we can hit balls, they can play afterward, we can eat. I would be there weekly.

---

see my note about e about Swansons.

---

Got fitted for my clubs there. Awesome place.

Ragoo said:

---

Heineken-Ashi said:

---

Rancho said:

---

Thank you

---

And I wouldn't sleep on keeping a driving range. A place to bring my kids that's covered, where we can hit balls, they can play afterward, we can eat. I would be there weekly.

---

see my note about e about Swansons.

---

Looking at Swanson and seems very comparable - we wouldn't have pickleball and volleyball but the concept is quite similar

It seems too all over the place. You're trying to start 4 individually tough businesses at the same time on the same property. They all have their own headaches and challenges. I don't really get the synergy between them.

I would focus on the bar side of the idea first (Kirby Icehouse concept like others said). Create a good food and drink menu (like East River 9 or Woodlands Social - now White Oak Social). Do the playground, maybe some putt putt (for both the kids and adults). Tons of TVs inside and outside. I wouldn't dwell on the dog side of things - keep them leashed, but have a small area where they can be taken and turned loose to go do their business away from the tables/food. Outdoor TVs/sitting areas also should have some sort of sunscreen/netting over them so you can actually see. Once that side is successful, then I'd reevaluate the 9-hole course. Keep in mind the water problem in Texas is only getting worse. May use some of that space in the beginning for cornhole, disk golf, or something similar and fun that kids and adults can both use (Go Karts are fun ).

We've gone to East River 9 many times and love the place. The 9-hole is a test of patience so we usually will just hit the driving range in the morning, then eat lunch and watch the game.

- Reduce number of holes to 3 or 4
- Make space for kid's playground and outdoor games
- No dog park
- No Live music
- Have giant screen and lots of TV's for watching sporting events
- Good and affordable kids menu

So I've been a silent partner in a suburb casual bar/grille concept before and it was a loser. Luckily it wasn't lots of dollars and had the ability to cut and run and cap losses quickly. What that one lacked was an independent demand study and that's what I'd want before even discussing investment and business model.

I'd worry a lot about demand if I were in your shoes. I've mentioned Top Golf but it also looks like there's a putt putt and bar about the same distance from where you'd want to develop. Yeah not exactly the same thing but not that different, family friendly and probably more accessible AND cheaper than what your concept could deliver.

Love the desire and guts to try this. That's what this country is built on. Though do be careful comparing the financials for this and Butler Pitch and Putt as the city owns that land and rents it out to the operator. Just over $10k per month in lease and 6 percent of revenue over $699k. They are doing well but will never have a big cash out as they don't own anything but a lease.

I am kind of confused on where you are really going to make your money. Do you see all divisions of this turning a profit? Or do you have one division (probably the bar) making a good profit and making up for the others (probably the golf course) losing money. The problem with that is that in the end you end up closer to break even in reality.
Warning on the par 3. They are fun but are money pits. You have to either run huge numbers of people through or charge more than people want to pay per round.

The land Swansons was on used to be a lit par 3 course that didn't make it

Rancho - I love the concept. I wish we had something like that in DFW.

I had never heard of Swanny's. That place looks cool too. You can tell its on a ground lease by the improvements on the property.

I'm a little confused on the business part of the concept. The money maker(s) appears to be golf and bar. The golf part will drive day time traffic, and the outdoor atmosphere will keep people there to enjoy the bar. People won't mind waiting around for their tee time because they are hanging out and drinking.

I remember having younger kids and eating at Joe's Crab Shack all the time because they had a great playground. Now days, I can't go to some of the outdoor restaurants because they are packed with kids. There is no chance in hell we are having a boys night anywhere that has a playground. I think you will have to weight the playground idea.

What's the price point for a round a golf, a mixed drink, and an entree?

Rancho said:

---

I am working on bringing a hospitality concept here to New Braunfels. Think Butler pitch n putt meets paws n pints.

Ferguson Commons is a casual 9-hole short golf course built around the idea that golf has become too expensive, slow, serious, and intimidating. The goal is to make it fun and approachable again.

Beyond golf, the property would have June's (casual food + drinks), a large patio, putting green, membership off leash covered dog park, event lawn, and year around programming and events.

The idea is simple: a social gathering place that happens to have golf.

I'm currently evaluating a potential site in a Texas master-planned community and working through the financial model, development costs, and a potential ground lease.

For the business owners and investors here: What would you want to know before investing in a concept like thisand what do you see as the biggest potential risk?

Also will eventually be looking for some investors and such once the site is selected and lease is executed if anyone is interested.

Feel free to DM me

---

OP, check out CargoTX.
https://cargotx.com/

It has a putt putt course designed by a fellow Aggie. I will DM you with more info, if you're interested. I think it could be a good contact for you to bounce some ideas back and forth since he's already done this type of concept and plans to do more.

Just bring back Lee's Par 3 (for the old school NB crowd out there).

Diggity said:

---

rotating food trucks would solve this headache. not a perfect solution, but better than getting in the restaurant biz.

---

I agree. Shifting some of the issues of dealing with food to the food trucks would be preferable to me. In my town, someone built an "island" (for lack of a better word) in a parking lot that serves several businesses. Has an area they can park their food trucks within this rectangle (might have a covered area, perhaps some seating, I haven't pad that much attention to it). I seldom see anyone there, but I might drive past at the wrong times.

Within 150 feet or so, there is one of those Watermill Express station things. Often there are two to four vehicles there. I have never seen anyone getting ice but I do see folks filling gallon milk jugs or those big plastic water bottles. It has always amazed me how many people buy water at a place like that.

What is your plan for when people like me whiff a golf ball into the dog pit and kill a lawyer's chihouahoua? I'm that bad at golf and I would 100% come to your venue.

That's my biggest question.

I think par 3 and entertainment center mix well.

I think dog park and entertainment center mix well.

I don't think dogs and golf mix all that well. I think you've got a good idea but I'd switch out the dog infrastructure for the playground like people said. Similar amounts of poop to clean up, probably.

I also think you should take a turf agronomist out for a drink and show him your course plans. Truly native grasses around NB don't do well even for roughs. Most of those are bermuda or something similar to the fairways that the superintendant is calling "native" so they aren't expected to manage it as heavily. A cheap greens mower is 100k.

You'll also be watering with some of the worst water possible for plants. Great for humans to drink but it will slowly kill your grass. You will need to have a plan to treat your water somehow. I sell an option for that treatment but you won't need to think about that until you get into course design.

Sounds like a pretty interesting concept. It is a little all over the place, but if you do it right that isn't such a bad thing. People like variety and options. A concept similar to Popstroke, but expanded, could be cool. I don't really know your market, but if you already have a TopGolf close, then that is going to compete a lot with a driving range concept. A Par-3 is a lot of fun, but I imagine it's super expensive. And people aren't going to pay a ton of money to play a Par-3. I'm in DFW, and wouldn't pay more than like $20 or $30. Even if your market and grounds justify a $50 tee time, it's still a long game. What 90 minutes? More or less? And it is spread out, so harder to keep people buying drinks.

But "grown-up putt-putt" would be fun and a fraction of the cost. And you probably have enough land to do some grown-up putt-putt as well as some children's putt-putt, plus the dog park and other children's play areas. You probably actually have way more land than you need for all of that. You'd also have people playing through quicker than a Par-3, and closer to beverage service. Even if the rate is cheaper than what you'd charge at a Par-3, it seems like you'd be moving people through quicker, with them buying beverages more often, and with way lower maintenence.

I'm on the fence about live music. Personally I find it a little annoying when going out and just want to hang out and chat with friends/family. If you are anywhere close to a community, people are going to hate you and blast you constantly on social media about your music. But there is a chunk of people who love that stuff and will come out. It's probably fine once in a while, but when it's every weekend it is pretty annoying.

For food service, is it possible to rotate food trucks through? Or just have a semi-permanent food truck set up outside? I wouldn't expect to make much/any money off of it, but the benefit is it'll bring people in and it's somebody elses headache to deal with.

Best wishes.

plant science guy said:

---

What is your plan for when people like me whiff a golf ball into the dog pit and kill a lawyer's chihouahoua? I'm that bad at golf and I would 100% come to your venue.

That's my biggest question.

I think par 3 and entertainment center mix well.

I think dog park and entertainment center mix well.

I don't think dogs and golf mix all that well. I think you've got a good idea but I'd switch out the dog infrastructure for the playground like people said. Similar amounts of poop to clean up, probably.

I also think you should take a turf agronomist out for a drink and show him your course plans. Truly native grasses around NB don't do well even for roughs. Most of those are bermuda or something similar to the fairways that the superintendant is calling "native" so they aren't expected to manage it as heavily. A cheap greens mower is 100k.

You'll also be watering with some of the worst water possible for plants. Great for humans to drink but it will slowly kill your grass. You will need to have a plan to treat your water somehow. I sell an option for that treatment but you won't need to think about that until you get into course design.

---

Mmmm…. So you are more worried about a golf ball hitting a lawyer's dog than you are with a golf ball hitting a lawyer's kid?

there are so many of these types popping up now. I don't know if dogs are how you want to differentiate.

This place is opening up 5 mins from my house and it looks insane: https://www.mackenzieclub.com/#concept which is diametrically opposed to something like "poor man's top golf" in SA: https://golfsanpedro.com/

San Pedro is great - good for golf, good food and not a night to break the bank. If there were dogs there I wouldn't go.

Besides the competition of top golf and sip and putt right there you really need to find out what your NBU impact fees could be.

So East River 9 with a dog park instead of pickleball courts?

I agree with others. Ditch the dogs.

Just a thought. If you have the millions and millions this will likely cost I'd focus on growing your wealth in something less risky. I live in Arizona which has as many golf/entertainment options as probably anywhere and none that I'm aware of includes dogs.

Ag CPA said:

---

Just bring back Lee's Par 3 (for the old school NB crowd out there).

---

Lots of good times out there.

OP, like others have said, it seems like you are trying to do too much here. I would skip the restaurant completely and focus on the bar. Invite food trucks or have people bring their own. Restaurants are a tough business, now more than ever. Even long time established restaurants are closing up left and right. Selling hot dogs and nachos isn't going to bring anyone in and even though it is simple foods, that is still going to add a lot of cost in construction, equipment, inventory, and staffing. I love dogs, but I don't like going to a bar/restaurant that has a bunch of dogs running around. Plus, people that feel they have to bring their dogs with them everywhere are a bunch of weirdos you don't want to hang out with anyway.

I get you have to have to do something to make your place stand out from all the other bars in town, but I think you need to focus on one concept to have a chance of making it.

Out of curiosity, are you currently in the hospitality business or is this just something you think would be fun to do?

Rancho said:

---

Ragoo said:

---

What part of town? There used to be a Par 3 course on common street - well executive course, but it closed down many many years ago.

I would look at the par 3 course at the pga in Frisco. Lights for night play with speakers playing country/Texas music. Bar in the middle to refill drinks.

There also used to be a go-kart, mini golf, batting cage place on the loop south near McCoys. Where the public storage is now. Looks like there is a golf academy back there now.

All that to say - these concepts have struggled in NB in the past.

---

It would be on 35 behind the new Costco

I think there's a demand for something like this especially in a master community - people want entertainment they can walk/ride golf carts to without ever having to leave their neighborhood.

---

I played an 18 hole executive course in wichita, KS that was 4 par 4 and 14 par 3. nice course and played in about 2 hours. i feel like that could hit more with a nice lunch place and then do a member area would do well.

Rancho said:

---

ATM9000 said:

---

Rancho said:

---

Yes in creekside but comparing this to top golf would be comparing apples to oranges

---

I understand they are slightly different but you simply can't look at them as apples and oranges considering the same people would go to both. Top Golf would be really direct competition to your concept.

Top Golf already offers drinks and food and I'd argue is more family friendly than yours considering their games by default have to be slightly more accessible than a pitch and putt. And they can offer so much more access to their key feature at once than a pitch and putt can.

I'm not trying to be too negative on your concept but you asked for feedback

---

No definitely - this is what i want (the honest feedback)

Took the family to top golf for Father's Day - 2 bays for 2 hours, 1 little platter of food, and a few drinks $500.

The family friendly atmosphere is something i need to work through, but providing something way more financially accessible for a family to go and enjoy and not having to spend a ton of money

---

Was this Father's Day (adjusted) pricing? Seems high.

AgShaun00 said:

---

Rancho said:

---

Ragoo said:

---

What part of town? There used to be a Par 3 course on common street - well executive course, but it closed down many many years ago.

I would look at the par 3 course at the pga in Frisco. Lights for night play with speakers playing country/Texas music. Bar in the middle to refill drinks.

There also used to be a go-kart, mini golf, batting cage place on the loop south near McCoys. Where the public storage is now. Looks like there is a golf academy back there now.

All that to say - these concepts have struggled in NB in the past.

---

It would be on 35 behind the new Costco

I think there's a demand for something like this especially in a master community - people want entertainment they can walk/ride golf carts to without ever having to leave their neighborhood.

---

I played an 18 hole executive course in wichita, KS that was 4 par 4 and 14 par 3. nice course and played in about 2 hours. i feel like that could hit more with a nice lunch place and then do a member area would do well.

---

new Braunfels had an executive course. Sundance. It was shutdown and demolished in the mid 2000s.

Ag CPA said:

---

Just bring back Lee's Par 3 (for the old school NB crowd out there).

---

Gatlyn McDonald already tried that maybe 10 years ago or so.

It was a great course but probably 20 years too soon back when NB was still a small town (and the real estate was worth too much). I wonder how Sundance would fare today if it was still around.