Yeah I get it, a man is a woman and a woman is a birthing person...

He/zhe/they who control the language clearly are capable of making sure to properly categorize bitcoin into the right and previously existing box.

In other words, Bitcoin identifies as a currency, but it's gender fluid or something like that.

Adverse Event said:

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Yeah I get it, a man is a woman and a woman is a birthing person...

He/zhe/they who control the language clearly are capable of making sure to properly categorize bitcoin into the right and previously existing box.

In other words, Bitcoin identifies as a currency, but it's gender fluid or something like that.

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I wish Bitcoin was currency. I'd use it a lot more for transactions if I did not have to keep track of basis for tax purposes. The only time I might buy stuff with BTC would be if I bought some Bitcoin and immediately bought something with that Bitcoin so the difference in price would be negligible.

Its Texas Aggies, dammit said:

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Deluxe said:

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jagvocate said:

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Is Bitcoin 1. money or 2. a rank speculation? Everyone says #1 but trades it like #2

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The Cleveland Fed says it's money. The IRS says it's property. Gary Gensler says it's a commodity. Some jurisdictions say it's currency, but most don't at this time. Volatility is driven by high leverage traders and cross-collateralization with sh*tcoins. That cleansing is occurring right now. Then regulations will tighten the space and significantly de-risk Bitcoin as an investment.

But with all that said, I'd stop trying to put Bitcoin into a defined bucket and start learning more about how it works. It will be very important.

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Currency incurs no capital gains tax treatment when it is exchanged for something else. Therefore, BTC is not currency.

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In America, that's correct (see bold text above). Bitcoin is property in the eyes of the IRS, not a currency.

I roll my eyes at the people who will continue to scoff at the idea of the government punishing wrong think via monetary oppression.

This PayPal policy is incrementalist precedence for doing just that. US CBDC will be a biblical level sign when we get it.

You still have a lot of reading to do on BTC. BTC is doing exactly what it was designed to do.

ballchain said:

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After reading through this thread…

1. The BTC ideal works in a Globalist economy. For it to work at a high efficiency it has to be free to work without constraints- constraints any nation state would throw a wrench in. Given human nature, this is not feasible (too many variables).
2. The ETH ideal is nearly the same as 1…. the "smart contracts" portion, while very attractive, also require non-globalist constraints to work productively, as national regulators are not symmetrical and joint productivity methods in close quarters shouldn't require the extra programming.
3. 3rd Party dilemma… if, in an ideal case, I send x BTC to Entity a - who happens to exist at a distance- unless it is digitally transferable, it will require a 3rd party's involvement to transport. Meaning if the transport mechanism is not aligned, the transfer was futile. What resolves this?

If BTC is to be a form of trade instrument, it must live within the constraints of the system it works within to be effective. We still have borders, governments, regulators, etc. Unless all are on board, effectiveness is limited to digital/virtual trade

Disclaimer: I was late to the BTC game, but did very well in ETH as a speculator.

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Expound on #3. I can send BTC directly to your wallet if I have your address. Don't need a third party. It's inherently digitally transferable.

Confusing.

ballchain said:

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It's doing exactly what I said it is above. I could read every internet mention of it and that wouldn't change anything.

You say it's a method for trading. If you cannot receive the goods you're trading for, then what is the benefit?

"Read more and find out" is the laziest answer I've ever heard - akin to "Google it."

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Not sure what this means

ballchain said:

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After reading through this thread…

1. The BTC ideal works in a Globalist economy. For it to work at a high efficiency it has to be free to work without constraints- constraints any nation state would throw a wrench in. Given human nature, this is not feasible (too many variables).
2. The ETH ideal is nearly the same as 1…. the "smart contracts" portion, while very attractive, also require non-globalist constraints to work productively, as national regulators are not symmetrical and joint productivity methods in close quarters shouldn't require the extra programming.
3. 3rd Party dilemma… if, in an ideal case, I send x BTC to Entity a - who happens to exist at a distance- unless it is digitally transferable, it will require a 3rd party's involvement to transport. Meaning if the transport mechanism is not aligned, the transfer was futile. What resolves this?

If BTC is to be a form of trade instrument, it must live within the constraints of the system it works within to be effective. We still have borders, governments, regulators, etc. Unless all are on board, effectiveness is limited to digital/virtual trade

Disclaimer: I was late to the BTC game, but did very well in ETH as a speculator.

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1. What constraints have or can be imposed upon it by a nation state? See YouBets comment. What can a government do to prevent that transaction from happening?
2. Not sure what you're saying here but assume it's related to bullet #1.
3. See YouBets response. One of the main arguments for Bitcoin is that no third party is required to be involved in a transaction. All YouBet and I need are public wallet addresses and that transaction can happen anywhere in the world without anyone else's sign off.

Follow up: I've never once said I use it for trading. Not sure what your point is.

I don't see why that would happen any differently than now. As the merchant, you advertise a good for sale at X BTC with or without shipping/freight. I'd pay you X BTC and you would have an obligation to fulfill your end of the agreement.

You could pay a shipper in BTC, USD, or whatever currency you want. If we agree I'm responsible for transport then I'll figure it out.

I suppose they can make it illegal in their jurisdiction. How would they know if we decide to transact anyway? Or move to a justification where it is legal?

ballchain said:

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3….

If you send me x BTC for a material good, how do I get it to you? Do I use USD to contract with a shipping company (the 3rd party) to transport the good to you? What if the shipping company won't accept BTC for services? Now I (or you) have multiple transactions and transfers to complete the initial sale.

If you aren't sending me BTC for a material good, what are you sending it to me for?

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Services performed. BTC is perfect for that and would have been so much easier for me when I was an independent consultant. One of my clients was in Europe and it was a nightmare trying to get paid in the beginning because we couldn't get aligned on how to get me my money. Started with SWIFT and it just wouldn't work. They couldn't figure out how to get the money to me even though we had all of the proper information.

For material goods, yes, there is larger hurdle there still to get over because BTC hasn't been fully adopted as a currency yet. If we get to that point (God willing), that will get worked out because payment layers will be resolved and we would it critical mass with adoption.

ballchain said:

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YouBet said:

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ballchain said:

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If you aren't sending me BTC for a material good, what are you sending it to me for?

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Services performed. BTC is perfect for that and would have been so much easier for me when I was an independent consultant. One of my clients was in Europe and it was a nightmare trying to get paid in the beginning because we couldn't get aligned on how to get me my money. Started with SWIFT and it just wouldn't work. They couldn't figure out how to get the money to me even though we had all of the proper information.

For material goods, yes, there is larger hurdle there still to get over because BTC hasn't been fully adopted as a currency yet. If we get to that point (God willing), that will get worked out because payment layers will be resolved and we would it critical mass with adoption.

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So likely BTC ultimate usefulness is limited to services and/or digitally transferrable items - wiping out the majority of all possible transactions (material goods) without mass adoption - adoption by nation states and regulated businesses that would (in very high probability) ban the use of BTC as it undermines their own fiat.

When I initially started digging into BTC and ETH (etc.), these were the questions I would ask, and no one seemed to be able to answer other than it will take some form of mass adoption to work as intended. My initial commentary in this thread focused around how that could only materialize in a globalist/one-world government scenario where controlling figures were cool with what BTC wants to do. This is where it reaches pipedream level for me as governments of any kind want full control over their currencies so they can tax, tax, tax the absolute **** out of every transaction all while being aware of exactly who is getting what.

This US Fed talk of developing digital currency is a sign that they will not adopt BTC because it removes control. And if, when put into use, they see all these crazy US Digital Dollar transactions with shipping companies, but no traceable source for what is being shipped, they'll step in immediately and squash it.

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You are probably right and I'm not arguing that.

I hate it though and it scares the **** out of me as it should everyone. But most people take delight trashing BTC and laugh at it while the government continues to move forward enslaving those very people with US CBDC.

Have you researched the lightning network? It's a layer 2 technology similar to something like a visa network. It allows settlement of transactions where multiple parties are involved. This should be a solution to your eBay scenario but I haven't tried it personally. It also assumes everyone has agreed to settle in BTC. Though, I don't think that's any different than what eBay does in dollars.

https://www.skalex.io/lightning-network/#networked-transactions

I'm not sure I follow. Thinking of a current mainstream example… something like strike facilitates transactions in various currencies on the rails of the BTC network. Would strike be the "secondary node" in your scenario?

It sounds very similar, if not identical, to strike and the Jack Mallers tortilla chip analogy. Why can't a capitalist run the local nodes all over the world for those who want to transact in various fiat currencies? BTC P2P transactions can transact on chain or via lightning.

Here's a non-KYC product that is supposedly going to allow swaps in and out of dollars and BTC.

https://stablesats.com/

I think we're in, or nearly in, a world where you can do what you want to do with the BTC as the rails and you might even have options. A lot of really smart people are financially, and idealistically, motivated to solve these problems and it seems like they're progressing at a fairly quick pace.

ballchain said:

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I have, yet the dilemma still exists - requiring all parties to adopt.

I will not ever go into detail about some experience I have from a previous life of getting very creative with global transactions (20 or so years ago), but I wasn't the only one and the hurdles we had to jump through were likely precursors for why alternate methods were needed. Too many jurisdictions to deal with, too much red tape, too many intermediaries.

I do believe something "like" the Lightning Network can be built to extend BTC usefulness, but it would have to be directly tied to BTC, underground, and adaptable so secondary nodes could exist in all potential jurisdictions. Effectively, these nodes would operate as currency exchanges within their jurisdiction, and that jurisdiction only. Outgoing/Incoming transactions would initiate in either BTC or the local jurisdictions' currency. Sort of a parallel payment system ("two sets of books") that shows up only when the local currency is selected or the transacting party isn't affiliated with BTC.

That's likely illegal almost everywhere, which is why I said it would have to be underground. I assume this isn't a new idea and it very well could be in development, but we may never know as discussion would be via trusted and encrypted channels.

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Sounds like fedimint. I have mixed opinions.

https://fedimint.org/

ballchain said:

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Strike would be shutdown immediately if they alluded to keeping transactions off the books. It is literally money laundering. The US Gov would have them all arrested. I wasn't describing a world where strike was not complying with financial reporting rules/regulations. I'm describing a world where a capitalist runs all of the "secondary nodes" from a jurisdiction that permits it. Building on this below…

Any BTC method currently in print will be required to create coding similar to CC transactions and log those.

Trading in BTC is diametrically opposed to governance and regulation. The IRS defines it as property because they're still trying to figure out how to undermine and outlaw it effectively. Agree with this paragraph and it's why many of us buy it. I think most holders are aware that a battle is coming. I, and many others, believe that the current fiat system is going to be undone by the current debt spiral before anyone figures out how to destroy Bitcoin. The dollar milkshake theory suggests that the USD will be the last one to fall(look at what's going on with the British treasury markets and their pension system. That will happen everywhere in due time) but that we are inevitably going to have to transfer to a new system. We were currently at $30M in debt and 1/3rd of that turns over in the next two years. Even if we cut all entitlement programs, dismantled the military industrial complex, and raised taxes to >50% tomorrow we are still going to hit a point to where we aren't able to pay the interest on our debt via tax revenue. I believe we bring in between $4-5 trillion in tax revenue the last time I looked and that number has been propped up by cap gains over the last 10 years. 2022 will should be far lower.

The only alternative at that point is for the US to sell more treasury bonds. That has worked to date largely because of the petrodollar. Looking at the Russia/China gas agreement and the BRIC nations attempts to do their own thing leads me to believe that the petrodollar may not be a thing for much longer. Especially if we keep attacking domestic exploration and production. So, what happens if we sell more bonds and no one comes to the auction? We will have to buy our own bonds and our debt spiral circling will increase its pace, inflation will continue to go up, and eventually we're in a global depression. Maybe we keep bumping up rates to counter inflation. Either scenario takes us to a global depression and I don't know why anyone would want dollars after it's all said and done if the petrodollar has collapsed.

The people In power can regulate the hell out it, make it a pain for people to use and acquire, but at the end of the day we are going to need a medium of exchange and a store of value and i hope the most secure, resilient, and censorship resistant network wins out. I have a portion of our portfolio in BTC because I believe it will be the most secure and censorship resistant option available to us but it's no where near all of our holdings. No one knows how this will all shake out, but the people at the top will fight like rabid dogs to keep the power they have, so I have us diversified.

Stablesats is a derivative gambling market and is creating "Synthetic USD" - a fiat of a fiat- to grift fees from users. Funny how they don't explain how all of those transactions and infrastructure are paid for in their marketing materials. Yeah, I'm skeptical of a lot of these companies. I posted it as support of claim that the pace of innovation is rapid and that we should have multiple options to conduct business in the near future. I wasn't advocating for stablesats.

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"Your purchase has been denied. You have missed your social health appointment."

Reject CBDCs. Use Bitcoin.

"Your purchase has been denied. You have been found guilty of spreading gender misinformation."

Reject CBDCs. Use Bitcoin.

"Your purchase has been denied. You have been found in violation of curfew. Please stay put. Social transportation agents are on their way."

Reject CBDCs. Use Bitcoin.

"Your purchase has been denied. Your account hasn't made a social contribution this week."

Reject CBDCs. Use Bitcoin.