Crypto as we know it can't go on like this...

25,714 Views | 279 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by TxAG#2011
funkycoldpetina
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Adverse Event said:

Dude, ethereum has been a security since it was token launched. I bought some in the pre-sale knowing I was buying a security from day 1.

This is nothing new, unless you haven't paid attention.

Again, this is why decentralization is important and a first principle. Mr Gary booboo gensler can't do **** to bitcoin, but PoS ETH2.0 is a fat ****ing suckling pig and skinny Gary is hungry. I'd be too were I in the same shoes.


I'll get to the other one in a little bit but no, absolutely no. According to the howey test eth is absolutely not a security.

Decentralization has nothing to do with gensler rampage

It is nothing new that maxis have called everything not btc a security forever though they simply aren't using the definition of a security. They also love to call everything not btc a Ponzi.

Gary or the govt can absolutely eff any crypto it wants. I don't know why you guys think because nobody knows who satoshi is they can't touch btc. They can make any crypto painful to use. They can never destroy the btc blockchain or eth or a million other cryptos but they can absolutely cripple any of them. They can take away the on and off ramps for any of them and criminalize their use and they'd be effed. Sure a black market would still exist but that's not unique to btc. If the US govt ended btc and eth today there would be a black market for both besides the rest of the world.
Adverse Event
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Bitcoin has been a commodity for 7 years, regulatedly speaking, as if it matters.

Bitcoin has no heads to chop off, ethereum absolutely does, and it should scare those involved with any sort of stake or significant portion of wealth attached to it.

funkycoldpetina
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Adverse Event said:

Bitcoin has been a commodity for 7 years, regulatedly speaking, as if it matters.

Bitcoin has no heads to chop off, ethereum absolutely does, and it should scare those involved with any sort of stake or significant portion of wealth attached to it.




Lol. They said eth isn't either. I wouldn't expect them to stick with that because they've never built a framework for crypto. They could kidnap vitamin and the eth foundation tomorrow and it would go on. They could kidnap every eth and btc dev they want and they will continue on but be hampered.

It doesn't matter if their are heads to chop off. They can go after any crypto they want and gut them at least in the US. It's not some magic defense for btc.
Adverse Event
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We're gonna see the tests on both. It'll be fun and prove the truth.
funkycoldpetina
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I'll try to speak accordingly from that viewpoint. I trust based on your conversations you don't find Austrian economics at all interesting and trust Keynes's views?
I'm a chicago guy though I love hayek and austrian economics. I've never been a particular fan of keynes though he doesn't deserve the hate he gets. Generally what people think of with keynes is govt spending money in a downturn but they forget he said they should cut back and save when things are good.


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I am a retailer, and the majority of the appliances being sold today come from a pretty small selection of brands owned by a smaller subset of manufacturers, the longevity are all the least of any generation prior.
The lack of competition in this space due to regulatory capture, lobbying and unproductive reductive strategies implemented by the largest entities encouraging consolidation is a major reason we are here, imo.

50 yr pre-nixon appliances still work, but I'm pulling 2-10 year appliances regularly out of people's homes. The economics/game theory of bitcoin trend toward low time preference at personal and business levels. If unfamiliar with low or high time preference, I'd recommend the due diligence on the topics, relates with mental health pretty heavily.

There is heavy competition in appliances though fewer players than yesteryear due to it being a global economy. Consumers preferences have changed and their disposable income has changed where we do not value something working a long time and prefer something we think is better and use it for a short time. BTC will have absolutely zero effect on this.

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what about mental health, divorce, small business failure are you familiar with? Have you tried to read much on the topic or engage in discourse with experts? I'd expect someone who's never pondered on the topic to respond this way.
I feel pretty well read on mental health and deeply sympathetic to it though I have not personally had issues with it. I have not personally been divorced but my wife was previously married and I am deeply sympathetic to it. I have 3 businesses. This is an annoying train of thought because you claim no special knowledge of these subjects but frame it in a position that assumes I have no knowledge of these things. I do not know what your knowledge base is on these things or anything we have talked about but I am not approaching everything like I am the smarty pants and you are the dummy head.

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1. Money problems are one of the top reasons for divorce.
Resolution bitcoin encourage low time preference, meaning monetary alignment on low time preference goods and services and foods and activities. Eschewing the overconsumption promoted on TV and ads and pharma and social networks, of everything.

"Low time preference is a term generally used in economics or evolutionary psychology to describe an individual that places emphasis on long-term gains, is able to delay gratification, make sacrifices, and live in a future oriented fashion."

The only connection between BTC and low time preference is that it may be worth more if you can buy it and hold it for some time like an investment. There is a whole industry for investing. BTC isn't a unique solution in this regard and just like index funds it is irrelevant if you are living paycheck to paycheck and don't have the ability to put money aside.

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2. Mental health: financial stress is a tremendous precursor to a breakdown or loss of home, Abusive substance disorders, depression etc.
Empirical Studies show that depressed individuals have an increased/heightened time preference, meaning less value placed on the future in lieu of the present. There's a great reason why Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (among others) is so productive for many depressed people.
Similarly a Game Theory that increases a preferences towards future goals increases agency and reduces depression and other negative mental health problems. I think bitcoin is perfectly aligned here, but maybe I'm too naive.

This is just a rehash of the previous. There are a million investment options to provide future benefits. BTC isn't unique. These all require actually having extra money to invest in that future.
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3. Small biz failure, see #1&2 above as primary small business failure points. Reductions of either increases the potential success rate of SMBs.

There are a million options to invest in. BTC isn't a unique solution and like all the others it requires actually having extra money to put into it.

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fair critique. The nature of bitcoin is rules without rulers. It's building a parallel economy all it's own that's global interconnected and fungible instantly everywhere. If you remove the monetary policy burden from governments there is far less to regulate and far less control over those regulations. The regulatory problems correct themselves through sheer inefficiency.

Every crypto has this ability. There is no significant parallel economy for any crypto and certainly not any that wouldn't be crushed if the govt decided to crack down on btc eth or anything else. BTC doesn't remove any monetary policy from govts and doesn't limit any regulation or control.

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BTC won't stop inflation or replace fiat.

never claimed it would, but bitcoins inflation is regulated for 140 years, it's not debased every 4 years with a new administration. Consistency in the game is paramount and underappreciated by you. Imo.
Fiat is far more consistent in the US with pretty normal inflation over decades. The target is 2%. BTC is all over the place. There is no consistency.


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This line of thinking always implies people are working their whole lives and stuffing money under there mattress and it is suddenly worth less.

I see the fear in people's eyes everyday when their 30 year old appliance fails and now they're stuck buying new ones every 5-10 years or less. Inflation is just one aspect of the problem
BTC does absolutely nothing to solve this.

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Nobody should be sticking their money under the mattress. why would anyone be incentivized to stick debased money under a mattress? That serves nothing except distrust in banks unlesd youre completely unbankable
They aren't and they don't. If they have extra money they invest it. BTC maxis pretend people stuff money in their mattress and pull it out years later having lost money. BTC is just another option for those with money to stuff it but there is a trillion dollar industry already addressing this problem.

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We already have investment solutions for this and for those who never had money to spare and invest BTC doesn't help. everyone can afford .000000001 BTC, whether investing their time/energy or money.
Not everyone can but anybody with extra money could put it in BTC or the stock market or many investments.

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I don't know what institutions you are referring to but BTC isn't replacing any institutions. TBD
No industries are disappearing because of BTC. TBD (watch western union)
Regulation will still exist and big businesses whether they be banks or amazon. and the parallel economy will continue to be built simultaneously and one will eventually supercede the other

I do think crypto can be great for cross border transfers but any crypto can do that. BTC isn't unique about that. Still western union and moneygram exist. There is no parallel economy in any meaningful way right now for any crypto.

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cannabis has been considered a massive snake oil campaign as well. Those studied in its actual research and anecdotal evidence have seen tremendous benefits in such a large swath of areas its a huge mystery why it does what it does.

Recent research proves an endocannabinoid system exists that regulates homeostasis of all the organs.

Now we are testing different chemicals (some plant based, some lab made) to work on these specific receptors.

Imagine telling someone 20-50 years ago that a cannabinoid called CBD which is grown in weed stops people from having seizures. That for thousands and thousands of years pre-dating christianity cannabis has been used for jewish mysticism and ancient chinese/Tibetan medicines, let alone to manage pain, sleep, stress, etc.

I think culturally we have done cannabis a disservice and I hate that. I want it to be legal and to be used in every practical way. I am not informed about all your claims here and all your claims here don't make your insane claims about btc true.

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Nothing remains unchanged, including the USD. We are either adopting a cashless CBDC or headed towards a bitcoin standard. Possibly both simultaneously. I know which I'd rather because I know who is untrustworthy, and what trustless means.
The bitcoin standard is an absolute fantasy. Nobody in economics takes deflationary currency seriously. It has no basis in reality.
funkycoldpetina
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Adverse Event said:

We're gonna see the tests on both. It'll be fun and prove the truth.
Are you referring to the govt ruling on securities? It is hilarious to me that everything you advocate is disassociating with the govt but the second you think govt is going to go after something you hate you sidle up and put that giant government phallus in your mouth. In expectation of a ruling you want, you say the govt declares the truth. It's like you care more about your btc than you do about free market competition.
Adverse Event
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Eth will be just fine regardless of its classification, I'm sure. And if it doesn't, then it's not worth anything of value, now or ever.

Resilience is important, possibly the most important aspect of bitcoin, as you said it's not that important in others.

Why does eth becoming a security change anything about eth? Explain it to me like I wear a mask outside.
funkycoldpetina
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Adverse Event said:

Eth will be just fine regardless of its classification, I'm sure. And if it doesn't, then it's not worth anything of value, now or ever.

Resilience is important, possibly the most important aspect of bitcoin, as you said it's not that important in others.

Why does eth becoming a security change anything about eth? Explain it to me like I wear a mask outside.


The SEC could declare eth or btc a security and it won't change anything about the tech. Btc isn't uniquely resilient. The only thing btc has that other cryptos don't is first mover advantage and from my view it's doing everything possible to lose that by being the Amish version of crypto and doing so little meaningful development. All btc devs time is going into lightning to create the functionality of a token I could make in 10 minutes. They are literally spending all their time trying to make it so btc doesn't have to use it's own blockchain as much as possible.
Adverse Event
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funkycoldpetina said:

Adverse Event said:

Eth will be just fine regardless of its classification, I'm sure. And if it doesn't, then it's not worth anything of value, now or ever.

Resilience is important, possibly the most important aspect of bitcoin, as you said it's not that important in others.

Why does eth becoming a security change anything about eth? Explain it to me like I wear a mask outside.


The SEC could declare eth or btc a security and it won't change anything about the tech. eth is far more capturable now that it is PoS.

Btc isn't uniquely resilient. maybe we differ on what the term resilience defines... I can't imagine how you'd defend this statement. Its already defeated a multitude of state initiated attacks.

The only thing btc has that other cryptos don't is first mover advantage and from my view it's doing everything possible to lose that by being the Amish version of crypto and doing so little meaningful development. lol, post some stats that you're basing this perception, please

All btc devs time is going into lightning to create the functionality of a token I could make in 10 minutes. wut?

They are literally spending all their time trying to make it so btc doesn't have to use it's own blockchain as much as possible. this was the direction post blocksize wars, so... did you miss the memo as to why? Hint: it has to do with dumb ol decentralization and state resistant ledgers.


funkycoldpetina
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Adverse Event said:

funkycoldpetina said:

Adverse Event said:

Eth will be just fine regardless of its classification, I'm sure. And if it doesn't, then it's not worth anything of value, now or ever.

Resilience is important, possibly the most important aspect of bitcoin, as you said it's not that important in others.

Why does eth becoming a security change anything about eth? Explain it to me like I wear a mask outside.


The SEC could declare eth or btc a security and it won't change anything about the tech. eth is far more capturable now that it is PoS.

Btc isn't uniquely resilient. maybe we differ on what the term resilience defines... I can't imagine how you'd defend this statement. Its already defeated a multitude of state initiated attacks.

The only thing btc has that other cryptos don't is first mover advantage and from my view it's doing everything possible to lose that by being the Amish version of crypto and doing so little meaningful development. lol, post some stats that you're basing this perception, please

All btc devs time is going into lightning to create the functionality of a token I could make in 10 minutes. wut?

They are literally spending all their time trying to make it so btc doesn't have to use it's own blockchain as much as possible. this was the direction post blocksize wars, so... did you miss the memo as to why? Hint: it has to do with dumb ol decentralization and state resistant ledgers.





ETH isn't capturable. The largest staker is coinbase. The idea that they are going to **** eth is beyond silly. Just as people were idiots for whining about hash rate of btc in China were stupid people crying about eth getting taken over are stupid. Any entity found such a thing would be destroying all their wealth.

You seem to think taking over a blockchain is all that matters. Govts could wreck any and every crypto without taking over the chain.

The block size wars were fun. A futile argument by unpractical ideologues. Governments don't need to take over a blockchain to completely neuter it.
Adverse Event
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Coinbase is a publicly traded entity, it is beholden to the SEC which has made verbal claims it may be selling illegal securities. I'm excited to see how centralization without regulatory capture plays out.

The real question is, will coinbase get big enough fast enough to pay off politicians and regulators to avoid paying their pound of flesh.
funkycoldpetina
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Lol. More evidence maxis just use centralization as a bogeyman to manufacture utility for their talking points. Literally anything the SEC wants to do with any crypto can be done to btc. It's wild how you cheer on abuse of power because you think it's going after stuff you don't like. It really shows how shallow maxis anti govt streak is.
Adverse Event
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Quote:

Literally.


*figuratively*

Because bitcoin is decentralized and simultaneously isn't regulated by the SEC.
funkycoldpetina
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There is nothing the SEC can do to ETH that it can't do to BTC. BTC is in no way safer from govt action than ETH. Govt can't destroy either blockchain but could make using either hell.
Adverse Event
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Does the SEC regulate commodities? Thought you had some tradfi background...
funkycoldpetina
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Nope which is why they have no business regulating ETH or most crypto. Hell they can't even convince a judge xrp is a security. It's doesn't mean idiots like gensler won't try and overreach to the giddy cheers of cypher punk larpers.
LatinAggie1997
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Adverse Event said:

Coinbase is a publicly traded entity, it is beholden to the SEC which has made verbal claims it may be selling illegal securities. I'm excited to see how centralization without regulatory capture plays out.

The real question is, will coinbase get big enough fast enough to pay off politicians and regulators to avoid paying their pound of flesh.



That is the crux. Additionally, many ecosystems have been trying to get ahead of the game by forming lobbies to push positive sentiment in Congress. They know they have public officials nto crypto but at the same time they have to fight the deep rooted money and friendships of legacy banking.

Right now smart money has moved into crypto bigger than ever. This cycle presents a big opportunity that was missed by elites in previous cycles. I doubt anything extreme, or substantial, happens until after 2025 bull run. Too many institutions and their investors will make tons of money buying now an selling in 2025. Retail needs to worry about the tax angle that will get implemented before 2025 bit a lot of this depends on the midterms.
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LatinAggie1997
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Expected. BTC charts trending down. Folks waiting to see if bugs on ETH, miners not dumping ETH into market anymore (less transactionsvolume), folks know it will continue to drop with BTC so best to wait. Won't become deflationary until bull run so DCA on way down and hope everything goes smoothly over next few months.
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Whirligigs
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The curve ecosystem with the voting vecrv is an extraordinary usecase - even all the derivatives like convex on top fighting for voting power via bribes. This is forex markets being played out for anybody to participate.

The dip is just more opportunity to accumulate.
LMCane
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anyone know when ETH 2 will be released from staking on coinbase?

I would like to regain access to my 3 ETH which have been locked up
Adverse Event
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At least 1 year post merge, iirc.
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Adverse Event
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Oh, crap. I didn't realize that....

So much trust...
AgLA06
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So this is what the conversations among Burnie Madoff investors was like in 2008.
exp
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LMCane said:

anyone know when ETH 2 will be released from staking on coinbase?

I would like to regain access to my 3 ETH which have been locked up


Login to Coinbase, wrap your staked eth into cbETH. Convert to Bitcoin. Withdraw from exchange. It'll take you two minutes.
exp
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"The only connection between BTC and low time preference is that it may be worth more if you can buy it and hold it for some time like an investment. There is a whole industry for investing. BTC isn't a unique solution in this regard and just like index funds it is irrelevant if you are living paycheck to paycheck and don't have the ability to put money aside."

You're not wrong but you also are. BTC isn't an investment. It's the future of money and is a network of energy storage.
exp
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"The bitcoin standard is an absolute fantasy. Nobody in economics takes deflationary currency seriously. It has no basis in reality."

It's hard for humans to measure the system from within the system. Everyone alive today has lived and breathed elastic fiat from birth almost. The 100 year toxin this represents to the extended order is only starting to show it's inevitable side effects.

Technology is deflationary. Bitcoin as a hard money network simply allows for the natural way of things to play out without cantillion interference.
exp
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Also, nobody in Bitcoin takes economists seriously.
exp
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"Fiat is far more consistent in the US with pretty normal inflation over decades. The target is 2%. BTC is all over the place. There is no consistency."

Why is the target 2%? Why not 0 or 5%?

BTC inflation is known precisely. It's 6.25 BTC/block. This rate halves to 3.125 BTC/block in about two years. It will continue to halve up to a limit of 21,000,000 total max supply. It's the first digitally scarce item ever discovered.
exp
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funkycoldpetina said:

There is nothing the SEC can do to ETH that it can't do to BTC. BTC is in no way safer from govt action than ETH. Govt can't destroy either blockchain but could make using either hell.


Bring it on. BTC was built for that.
Adverse Event
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exp said:

funkycoldpetina said:

There is nothing the SEC can do to ETH that it can't do to BTC. BTC is in no way safer from govt action than ETH. Govt can't destroy either blockchain but could make using either hell.


Bring it on. BTC was built for that.


Exactly!

Bitcoin and bitcoiners are different. We say put up or shut up. And thus far countries have been silenced attempting to attack bitcoin.

If your chosen ****coin cannot take on Abusive government, maybe it should stand at all. Time will tell.
Adverse Event
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Seems like the SEC is trying their best to prevent crypto from going on like this by educating people. I'm enjoying these videos they are putting out.


Its Texas Aggies, dammit
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Deluxe said:

jagvocate said:

Is Bitcoin 1. money or 2. a rank speculation? Everyone says #1 but trades it like #2
The Cleveland Fed says it's money. The IRS says it's property. Gary Gensler says it's a commodity. Some jurisdictions say it's currency, but most don't at this time. Volatility is driven by high leverage traders and cross-collateralization with sh*tcoins. That cleansing is occurring right now. Then regulations will tighten the space and significantly de-risk Bitcoin as an investment.

But with all that said, I'd stop trying to put Bitcoin into a defined bucket and start learning more about how it works. It will be very important.


Currency incurs no capital gains tax treatment when it is exchanged for something else. Therefore, BTC is not currency.
 
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