Good for them? I don't understand why you felt the need to post this.

Pepper Brooks said:

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Good for them? I don't understand why you felt the need to post this.

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BCUZ BLOCKCHAIN NOT BITCOIN!

Pepper Brooks said:

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Good for them? I don't understand why you felt the need to post this.

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1. I didn't feel the need to post it, I wanted to post it.
2. Some of us have had theories about mass adoption. Yes, this is blockchain and institutions throwing their hat into the ring, but also the tokenization of Wall Street (at least part of it). My gut tells me that eventually Wall Street will realize that their plan to compartmentalize private vs public is not the best business model moving forward. The results will be institutions building on existing ecosystems for a myriad of reasons.

Haha, ok. I think "some of us" may be making a mountain out of a mole hill with this article but whatever. Are you going to apply?

Pepper Brooks said:

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Haha, ok. I think "some of us" may be making a mountain out of a mole hill with this article but whatever. Are you going to apply?

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Well, I expect that mole hill to become a full mountain range and not just a mountain.

LatinAggie1997 said:

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My gut tells me that eventually Wall Street will realize that their plan to compartmentalize private vs public is not the best business model moving forward. The results will be institutions building on existing ecosystems for a myriad of reasons.

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How do you define public vs private? I only ask because it doesn't seem like you're using the traditional defintion of public vs. private company, but maybe you're just conceptualizing it differently than me or speaking too loosely.

What's a good example of a product that Goldman Sachs (or similar investment bank) is going to want to pursue, but ultimately decide that putting it on Cardano (or a similar tokenized alt-chain) is a better option for their business model?

Deluxe said:

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LatinAggie1997 said:

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My gut tells me that eventually Wall Street will realize that their plan to compartmentalize private vs public is not the best business model moving forward. The results will be institutions building on existing ecosystems for a myriad of reasons.

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How do you define public vs private? I only ask because it doesn't seem like you're using the traditional defintion of public vs. private company, but maybe you're just conceptualizing it differently than me or speaking too loosely.

What's a good example of a product that Goldman Sachs (or similar investment bank) is going to want to pursue, but ultimately decide that putting it on Cardano (or a similar tokenized alt-chain) is a better option for their business model?

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"McDermott said that GS DAP allows investors to access more data, promotes transparency, and improves asset pricing compared to public blockchains like Ethereum and Bitcoin."

***I don't see how this will be the case nor the public sentiment once the public educates themselves. More data and transparency? Open source oracles on open source blockchains is the answer. Oracles are designed to pull fact/true data from multiple sources.

"He also said that it is unlikely that TradFi transactions will fully transition to public blockchains soon. He pointed out that uncertainty and distrust in the crypto industry and its regulations will make the transition longer.
Talks on the tokenization of assets have been ongoing in the finance sector, with the inclination towards using digital ledgers.
Proposing teams have argued that tokenization can make illiquid assets like private equity easier to trade and faster settlement for investments like bonds."
"The progress of tokenizing assets has been sluggish due to the current distrust in the crypto industry and the fall of giant blockchain entities such as FTX."

***Cardano will likely be the fastest most secure method once Hydra and Voltaire are fully implemented. FTX was not "crypto" centric in their approach, ethos, or philosophy. Using them as the paradigm again begs that the masses educate themselves. It will be possible for GS to use the speed and security of Cardano as a sidechain (partner chain) while controlling other aspects of their protocol.

Let me see if I can steel-man your point before offering any thoughts of my own:

You're saying that tokenization is coming to TradFi and the Goldman Sachs article you posted is evidence. When you say private vs public, you're referring to private closed-source systems like GS DAP vs public open-source systems like Ethereum. Your hypothesis is that the market will ultimately prefer the public, open source systems because they offer more data and transparency.

The article gives an example of Hong Kong selling green bonds via the GS DAP platform in a much shorter timeframe than traditional bond-placing methods. The GS employee gives an example of shares of private equity being issued as digital tokens as well. Ultimately, these are the type of financial products that will be tokenized and trend toward the fastest and most secure eco-system, which you think will be Cardano post the Voltaire update.

Is that in the ballpark?

Deluxe said:

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Let me see if I can steel-man your point before offering any thoughts of my own:

You're saying that tokenization is coming to TradFi and the Goldman Sachs article you posted is evidence. When you say private vs public, you're referring to private closed-source systems like GS DAP vs public open-source systems like Ethereum. Your hypothesis is that the market will ultimately prefer the public, open source systems because they offer more data and transparency.

The article gives an example of Hong Kong selling green bonds via the GS DAP platform in a much shorter timeframe than traditional bond-placing methods. The GS employee gives an example of shares of private equity being issued as digital tokens as well. Ultimately, these are the type of financial products that will be tokenized and trend toward the fastest and most secure eco-system, which you think will be Cardano post the Voltaire update.

Is that in the ballpark?

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1. Yes, I believe tokenization is coming to TradFi.
2. The article is merely a glance at what some TradFi people are contemplating is the future, much the same as BlackRock CEO Fink.
3. I think closed source systems will benefit and be interoperable with open source more than exclusively separate. There will be independent ones but imo they will be in the minority.
I don't have the acumen to explain how my imagination sees it but the best description would be one outsourcing the other, or a symbiotic partnership.
4. Yes, I believe Cardano is built better than ETH to handle onboarding massive roles in need of sustainability, scalability, and security.


Edited: I am OK with being wrong and with folks disagreeing with my opinions and gut feelings.
I like dissenters as they always assist me in filling in the blanks and seeing different angles.

There's different ways of "tokenizing" though.

The tokenization that's potentially coming to TradFi is designed to facilitate more efficient issuance and trading of securities relative to what exists today. So a company or municipality wants to issue a bond. After thousands of pages of legal docs have been signed, representations have been made and proof of compliance with regulatory standards have been conducted, the bank issues the bond in tokenized form on their behalf that represents all those qualities therein. In this structure, getting the bond into the public's hands and trading thereafter is theoretically easier than it currently is.

That seems like a legitimate idea to me. Investment banks will continue diligence this idea and it could come to fruition. What Goldman Sachs isn't doing is working on tokenizing a "Goldman Coin" and selling it to the public. All while hyping up products that you might need Goldman Coin for in the future to drive coin demand and generate big gains for their management team and early coin holders. It's just a company looking into the idea of tokenized securities to potentially streamline a specific area of their business. I think it's important to be clear on that distinction.

Anyway, let's assume the idea catches on and it becomes more commonplace for investment banks to issue tokenized securities on Wall Street in the next decade. How does that look? And how does Cardano (or any other tokenized public ecosystem) play into it?

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The way I see it...

Say Goldman issues a tokenized bond (as mentioned previously). I don't see any way that bond is allowed to trade outside the walled gardens of our existing financial structure. For some reasons that are good and some that are debatable, our financial system has to play by a certain set of rules and accommodate a certain level of oversight. Platforms (digital or physical) that facilitate issuance and exchange of securities need to maintain a level of centralization to ensure all those rules are abided by.

I think there's a naivety among some prominent techie/libertarian alt-chain entrepreneurs today to be like, wow, wouldn't it be cool if <insert a financial product like bonds> could be issued and traded in an open source, decentralized domain because it facilitates more transparency, data, etc. It's just not reality.


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I'm also ok agreeing to disagree. My main reason for engagement is that you seem to pop in occasionally, post an article, and be like "yep, just like I've been saying all along". So I just wanted to ask the obvious question, "how does this article prove that you're right"?

Never "I was right " but more "it looks like it will happen".

My over simplification:

Wall Street will eventually need help transitioning to blockchain on a large scale. As the landscape changes ecosystems like Cardano will be far more advanced in the required security, scalability, speed, etc.

LatinAggie1997 said:

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Never "I was right " but more "it looks like it will happen".

My over simplification:

Wall Street will eventually need help transitioning to blockchain on a large scale. As the landscape changes ecosystems like Cardano will be far more advanced in the required security, scalability, speed, etc.

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Edited: imo, the general public is tired of TradFi as a whole and as blockchain grows in familiarity and adoption, TradFi will be forced to adapt.

The general public is terrified of change and doesn't care about, pay attention to, and would likely root against 99% of what we talk about in this thread. I think you're greatly over estimating the level of dissatisfaction of the average person.

Its going to take big banks, and/or the fed, forcing a material change to the way people access, use, and invest their money before the sentiment you're talking about becomes anything close to widespread. Even then, there will be a meaningful portion of the population who will have Stockholm syndrome.

Yes, I'm talking 10+ years away.

I believe you should hang around lower class folks more often to hear about the dislike and distrust in banks, and all fees and charges thwy earn in creating that distrust.

About 10% of my coworkers went to Tech. I go slumming multiple times a week.

Pepper Brooks said:

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The general public is terrified of change and doesn't care about, pay attention to, and would likely root against 99% of what we talk about in this thread. I think you're greatly over estimating the level of dissatisfaction of the average person.

Its going to take big banks, and/or the fed, forcing a material change to the way people access, use, and invest their money before the sentiment you're talking about becomes anything close to widespread. Even then, there will be a meaningful portion of the population who will have Stockholm syndrome.

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I don't think the article LatinAggie posted was even talking about anything wide spread. It was referring to the idea of tokenizing a small niche of the securities market. How those securities are issued and traded really only effects some bankers, lawyers, fund managers and accredited investors.

None of those stakeholders are shouting for change. The current system works fine enough. But if some banks like Goldman want to experiment behind the scenes with tokenizing securities, that's great. Businesses should be free to pursue ideas that could potentially make their products more efficient.

Like we probably agree on though, none of this has anything to do with any tokenized alt-chain that exists today that aiming for revolution in this domain. The "market" in this case is going to always veer toward products backed by legacy institutions that are regulated and have a history of expertise/execution in securities offerings.

I know and agree with everything you just posted. I was responding to this comment…

"Edited: imo, the general public is tired of TradFi as a whole and as blockchain grows in familiarity and adoption, TradFi will be forced to adapt."

Gotcha

https://dailyhodl.com/2023/03/11/22-trillion-in-us-banking-system-backed-by-just-225-billion-at-fdic-bitcoin-proponent-gabor-gurbacs/

Whirligigs said:

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Just a reminder for folks to move assets to private wallets now.

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Now and always.

The current system working fine lads, nothing to see and certainly nothing to fear, keep ignoring the wealthy TradFi elites behind the "too big to fail" curtain that will always get bailed out whilst preserving the current socioeconomic statuses.

Definitely a small pump going on now. Could be the weekend thing tho.

Do you still predict BTC falling to 10-12K?

Whirligigs said:

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Definitely a small pump going on now. Could be the weekend thing tho.

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Institutions are desperate for liquidity with all the Fed interest rate hikes. They are shameless mofos so, I'd be watching out for a big ol' nasty rug pull on retail.

Ptery83 said:

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Do you still predict BTC falling to 10-12K?

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Yeah, I think it happens but perhaps just back to around $15k. Things are likely to get rough for many folks and they will need to sell their digital assets. It is also likely that in the short term it will pump just to have whales use retail as exit liquidity and dump the price. That is going create a big buying frenzy for big/smart money and institutions.

We could also see BTC trade sideways between $20k-30k until legislation is introduced.

I'm just going to hodl and buy the dips.

Pepper Brooks said:

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The general public is terrified of change and doesn't care about, pay attention to, and would likely root against 99% of what we talk about in this thread. I think you're greatly over estimating the level of dissatisfaction of the average person.

Its going to take big banks, and/or the fed, forcing a material change to the way people access, use, and invest their money before the sentiment you're talking about becomes anything close to widespread. Even then, there will be a meaningful portion of the population who will have Stockholm syndrome.

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Content will lead adoption of new tech, as always, not government.

LatinAggie1997 said:

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The current system working fine lads, nothing to see and certainly nothing to fear, keep ignoring the wealthy TradFi elites behind the "too big to fail" curtain that will always get bailed out whilst preserving the current socioeconomic statuses.

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If this is a broader statement, I agree. There couldn't be a more obvious advertisement for Bitcoin and self custody.

If this is a mocking rebuttal to our conversation from a few days ago, I'm afraid you missed my point pretty badly.

Current scenario is entire reason why Btc was invented. Let's see what happens

Deluxe said:

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LatinAggie1997 said:

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The current system working fine lads, nothing to see and certainly nothing to fear, keep ignoring the wealthy TradFi elites behind the "too big to fail" curtain that will always get bailed out whilst preserving the current socioeconomic statuses.

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If this is a broader statement, I agree. There couldn't be a more obvious advertisement for Bitcoin and self custody.

If this is a mocking rebuttal to our conversation from a few days ago, I'm afraid you missed my point pretty badly.

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Mostly #1 my friend.

This is comical though...

"Circle/Paxos/Tether: "we're going to hold collateral mostly in cash and T-bills."

Nothing happens.

Government: "CRYPTO IS SUPER RISKY."

Banks: "we're going to hold collateral mostly in longer-dated TradFi bonds."

Banks fail.

Government: "SEE, CRYPTO IS SUPER RISKY."

TxAG#2011 said:

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Current scenario is entire reason why Btc was invented. Let's see what happens

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Up 15% today, deleting the poor past week. It's early, but to your point, if multiple bank failures doesn't pump BTC, I don't know what will.

I actually think we are witnessing the safe-havenization of Bitcoin today

The cynical (tin foil?) take is that UST is buying crypto assets to provide an outlet for some institutional players to get out while they can.

I heard again this weekend for the third time in as many months that Tether was basically a criminal syndicate. I wouldn't put it passed the DOJ in conjunction with DHS to be using what they've learned during the recent investigations of how these banks are using the leverage of T-bills and notes to act like a money market fund for outside investors. Now the Feds can step in, using products like Tether as a conduit, and act like a counterparty to both stabilize institutions and educate themselves on the patterns and practices of malicious actors.

Sounds like it was CZ