4 hr RSI, maybe you're on a different time frame.

Mancini:
Worth noting the 4hr RSI(5) is now at the most oversold this year (which says a lot) and this is very extreme given no new low has been made yet. It suggests #ES_F does get a sizable bounce before making any attempt at a new low. If can't continue here at 3900, then likely @ 3860

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I'm not bullish by any means, just think he may be right that we get a bounce here into early next week. Then middle of next week commence the blood letting.

Got a weekend potpourri question for this group. Since we have some doctors that post and lurk maybe we can get some insight from them too. Insurance folks might want to post some thoughts.

This is what I'd like to know...

QUESTION: How much investable wealth do you need before considering to not have any health insurance coverage?
FACTORS:
* Investable wealth = cash, bonds, stocks, anything that can easily be converted to cash in a matter of 24 hours.
* Do not consider home, 2nd home, farm, ranch, cars, jewelry, art, guns, land, etc. as investable wealth
* Not looking at any particular age or sex
* Pretend there are no preexisting medical conditions.
* The wealth factor should be considered for one person and then the wealth factor of adding on a second person.
* No exceptions,...no explaining having a catastrophic insurance coverage to help offset medical risk. Just plain ol' how much cash do you need to consider no health/medical insurance coverage.

I've asked this question to many that I thought were of financial means and savvy to provide some type of answer. No one has given me an answer. I got a generalized $10 million as one reply and that's as close as it has come to an answer.

Personally, I think $6 million total investable wealth for an individual and adding a second person would be a million more, $7 million total. Moving to a family, I think it starts at $10 million.

I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Thanks in advance!

I think about the $1 million lifetime maximum in that case. Once you hit $1 mil, you're out of insurance/canceled. According to some, you're not suppose to be canceled; however, the devil in the details is, you won't be canceled you'll just pay a higher premium to a new insurance company that handles excess over lifetime maximums.

I'm retired, my medical is provided to me from the company I retired from and is not subsidized. We pay $2,549.07 per month for me, Mrs. Farmer and our son.

Car insurance I probably would never drop. Home insurance, I might consider dropping.

docaggie said:

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So, I would never say I don't need some sort of at least catastrophic coverage paired with something that would cover extended care in a long term facility.

That's not a direct answer, but it's hard to say just how expensive cutting edge care can be.

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I'm getting closer to the "catastrophic coverage" as the hedge answer.

In this quest to find an answer, I am trying to connect with an actuarial professional that works for a medical/health insurance company and discuss this topic. Surely those folks have run some scenarios like this or close to it.

I have seen a 1.4 million bill on a high risk cabg with complications needing iabp and crrt/HD. 30+ day stay. There is also the ongoing possible life long HDialysis, rehab, and or home health care cost.

bmoochie said:

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Not a Doctor but have experience with medical issues cost. I'm in my 30s and wife had breast cancer years back. I've added up the hospital stays/surgeries/medical follow ups and we are at $1.5M with everything. You said age doesn't matter but think about someone our age and that could wipe out even modest wealth with over half our lives to go.

Now if you're older that changes things. Just one man's opinion since I have seen what big medical issues can cost.

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I put the age & sex discount in the factors only because I didn't want it to become a sticking point. I do understand your position and it was fairly presented.

If you were at $7M (my scenario about a 2 person family with $7M investable wealth) and you now have $5.5M remaining after $1.5M in expense, would that be acceptable to take the no insurance risk?

tlepoC said:

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There's just no way you can go without at least catastrophic coverage unless you have FU money and like to roll the dice. It doesn't make sense to do so.

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What is that $ number total in your thoughts?

I love you man. No homo.

Tough to say. I personally wouldn't and I have a high risk tolerance. That was one medical issues. What if you now have a $1-1.5M medical issue. Now your wealth drops again. Is there a plan to pass down wealth? Is that still enough to cover all expenses? Obviously I know you're older so we will definitely have different mindsets. So I think it really depends on risk tolerance. My mindset, insurance has paid for itself a thousand times over at this point in my life.

Even if u have $5.5M remaining, how much are premiums gonna run you? A fraction of that number relative to the risk of a wipeout medical condition?

I think it makes no sense to not have healthcare. I know someone right now whose wife is undergoing IVF so they can have a baby. They have basically emptied their savings. They are late 20s/early 30s. They have no insurance! This makes no sense to me at all.

They emptied their account to have a baby but no insurance to provide for the family in case of health crisis?! It's illogical.

Here's a better question, Farmer! If you decide to go without insurance and you encounter a catastrophe that somehow keeps mounting and it wipes your entire account out, who should pay the remaining cost? This is the predicament of American healthcare.

ProgN said:

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TSLA files for 3:1 stock split

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Makes me feel a bit better about adding to my position a couple of months ago when the stock initially dropped to around $900....

Red Pear DFW Luke said:

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ProgN said:

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TSLA files for 3:1 stock split

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Makes me feel a bit better about adding to my position a couple of months ago when the stock initially dropped to around $900....

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I may be wrong but I see this announcement as a negative and of desperation. We'll see in the coming weeks.

lobwedgephil said:

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Split announcement was a few months ago, today was just details on it, the 3:1 which wasn't previously known.

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Ok, I'm not sure because I don't trade TSLA, but I think this is a new announcement of another split because they've already split. If you're right, then it's no big deal. If I'm right, I think it may backfire.

Was announced in March, they just filed the details today.


"Tesla (TSLA) announced today that it is going to put a three-for-one stock split to a shareholder vote at its upcoming annual meeting.

The company announced its intentions to do another stock splitback in March, but it didn't reveal the details.
Today, as part of the release of its prospectus for its 2022 annual shareholder meeting, Tesla announced that it is going with a three-for-one stock split meaning that if you own one Tesla share, you will get two more."

If you want some light bed time reading material - I stumbled across this stuff regarding the Generational Cycle Theory in which America (and I guess the world, but 'Murica) experiences 4 cycles over the course of a "natural" human life time of 80-100 years. Basically says every 25 years is a new "Turning" in which we reshape our collective society.

Examples would be Great Depression/World War 2 (crisis) -> Cultural or Religious Awakening (think the 60s/70s/hippies/Cultural revolution) -> Unraveling where institutions are weak and individualism is high (Started in the 80s/90s boom times, the culture wars, etc - defined by kicking the can down the road). Last "Turning" is Crisis (started with Black Friday 1929 and ended with WW2 finale).

This theory goes on to define society into 4 "archetypes" for each generation and explains what happens to each generation/archetype during each "Turning". If things hold steady to their "Theory" that would mean COVID and all this current stuff is just the tip of the iceberg as we hit the 4th turning....

Crisis Examples:

• American Revolution
• Civil War (started 85 years after)
• World War 2 (started 79 years after civil war)
• 2022 is currently 77 years after WW2.

I may end up making another thread about this but figured y'all would like it.

https://www.artofmanliness.com/character/knowledge-of-men/strauss-howe-generational-cycle-theory/

BREwmaster said:

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Farmer @ Johnsongrass, TX said:

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docaggie said:

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So, I would never say I don't need some sort of at least catastrophic coverage paired with something that would cover extended care in a long term facility.

That's not a direct answer, but it's hard to say just how expensive cutting edge care can be.

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I'm getting closer to the "catastrophic coverage" as the hedge answer.

In this quest to find an answer, I am trying to connect with an actuarial professional that works for a medical/health insurance company and discuss this topic. Surely those folks have run some scenarios like this or close to it.

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Definitely look into a health share plan. It's not "health insurance", but it works just as well for us and it fulfills the requirement. and it covered in the event of some big $ health event. There are christian ones for example (like Medishare, we've done that one). Now we're on a catholic one that works great for us, Solidarity. We pay around $450 a month for the 3 of us (we are all 3 healthy, work out, etc.). We do pay out of pocket for my endocrinologist visits and for little man's pediatrician (but those are not often and cheap). I had my thyroid removed about 6 years ago, cancer free since and have visits once a year just to check things. and I am very low risk at this point!

We were paying 4 figures for a Scott n White plan that basically had no coverage, big deductible b/c of what I make. Robbery honestly. Health share plans have saved us a lot of coin! and we sleep good at night knowing we are covered in the case of an event.

I'm honestly a little shocked no one else mentioned these first. Shoot, I'll send you an email too.

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We have medishare. Had a baby on it. Has done exactly what it said it would. They also offer a discount for "being healthy"

Red Pear DFW Luke said:

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I feel like Insurance is one of those things you hate paying for until you need it and then you're glad you did....


But really - why would you roll the dice on being the one to foot a huge medical bill and seriously bankrupt yourself so you can save $25K per year in insurance premiums? I'm not going to pretend everyone is the same, but I hope to leave my kids something some day.

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I agree with your statements. Our personal medical premiums are high (I think) and that's the way it is. I look at other plans annually, because I have the time and just curiosity (guess what question those agents get asked..) There is no issue on the affordability in my case, but I consistently read posts on TexAgs and other forums where people usually write a caveat of "I'm not sure I can afford my medical insurance premiums and I think I'll have to work forever". I keep thinking there has got to be some $ number of comfort to allow someone not to worry about a medical catastrophe wiping out all their savings and not having to pay high premiums. Side Note: I am not an advocate of single payer plans, Canadian plans, European plans. I'm an American, a patriot and a supporter of our nation and firmly believe less government is better, so no, I do not want a government medical plan. Maybe there is no $ number of investable wealth to avoid health/medical insurance...or maybe it's the FU $50M number..

I have that book in my queue. Supposed to be a good one. There's also a good YouTube video summarizing the concept for those that don't want to read a whole book. I'll try to dig it up.

thanks for sharing! I emailed Farmer, I was actually shocked to see no one else mention a health share plan. It covers the catastrophic and what if scenarios completely.

We actually switched to Solidarity a year or so ago b/c it was cheaper and roughly same coverage. but I had no complaints with Medishare. (and you don't have to be Catholic to sign up for Solidarity)

Thanks for that link!

lobwedgephil said:

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Was announced in March, they just filed the details today.


"Tesla (TSLA) announced today that it is going to put a three-for-one stock split to a shareholder vote at its upcoming annual meeting.

The company announced its intentions to do another stock splitback in March, but it didn't reveal the details.
Today, as part of the release of its prospectus for its 2022 annual shareholder meeting, Tesla announced that it is going with a three-for-one stock split meaning that if you own one Tesla share, you will get two more."

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Cool, thanks.

BREwmaster said:

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thanks for sharing! I emailed Farmer, I was actually shocked to see no one else mention a health share plan. It covers the catastrophic and what if scenarios completely.

We actually switched to Solidarity a year or so ago b/c it was cheaper and roughly same coverage. but I had no complaints with Medishare. (and you don't have to be Catholic to sign up for Solidarity)

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Good to know. I actually have an opportunity to get real insurance in January with my new job. I may just be staying on a health savings plan if the insurance is pretty pricey. That paired with an HSA seems like a great setup. (Fidelity lets you trade/invest in your HSA)