pepe the dog said:

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AgCPA95 said:

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evan_aggie said:

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NWA kept those old DC-9's flying FOREVER investing a ton refurbishing them and installing engine hush kits on the old jets in the late 90's. A lot of those planes were over 30 years old and fully paid for so some extended maintenance wasn't a big deal.

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Years ago a fellow employee worked out of Memphis, a NWA hub. Memphis was a DC-9 standard, He jokingly said he finally decided to look at the ID Plate located at the door of the aircraft.

If the DC-9 was older than him he would not board.

NWA got all the mileage they could out of those DC-9's.

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They've still got a lot of the MD80s and MD95/Boeing 717s too. Fun planes to ride.

whasty said:

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"The last couple of rows on the MD-80 should be avoided at all costs IMO."

All rows on the MD-80 should be avoided at all costs.

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I'll take any of the MD series over the stupid RJs that United and American like to fly in and out of CHS.

I even managed to get a ride on one of the two Delta has from the Shangai plant that was open briefly. Tail number 00002.

A good while back, I got the last row window on a MD-80. You couldn't see out the window of course due to this large jet engine there.

That steadily purring engine sound put me to sleep in no time. About 1.5 hours later i wake up. Almost at my destination i figured. Pretty smooth flight so far. Must of slept through take off. Yawn, what a way to fly!!

Hey what!!. it then dawned on me we never took off. Delayed on the tarmac.

CanyonAg77 said:

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Quote:

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Uncontained fan disk, turbine blade, or prop blade failure happens occasionally, and can easily send metal shrapnel into the fuselage. Aircraft with tail-mounted engines are of particular concern here, due to the proximity of the engines to the cabin. The last couple of rows on the MD-80 should be avoided at all costs IMO.

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So...I've scanned some NTSB reports, as well as my memory. I don't recall any such passenger injuries. Even on the DC-10 crash where the Aggie pilot miraculously landed, and saved lots of people, the fan disk explosion did not penetrate the cabin and cause injuries, to my knowledge.

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Wow, thanks CA77, I never knew/or forgot Capt. Al Haynes of United 232 was an Aggie. Makes perfect sense though. To keep his wits about him during the most stressful flying he ever did was amazing.

http://clear-prop.org/aviation/haynes.html


UAL 232: We have the runway in sight, and will be with you shortly.
Thanks a lot for your help.

Sioux City: United 232 heavy, winds currently 360 at 11, three sixty at
eleven, you're cleared to land on any runway.

UAL 232: You want to be particular and make it a runway, huh?

Quote:

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To keep his wits about him during the most stressful flying he ever did was amazing.

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The CVRs of him and Captain Sully are humbling in their sheer presence in the cockpit. Haynes making jokes in the face of disaster. Sully coolly stating facts. "We're going to be in the Hudson."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/04/17/southwest-airlines-planes-engine-explodes-passenger-reportedly-hit-with-shrapnel.html

Quote:

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A woman was "partially sucked out" an airplane window after an engine exploded in midair Tuesday, leading desperate passengers aboard the Southwest Airlines flight to try pulling her to safety amid a chaotic scene with "blood everywhere," frightened witnesses said.

At least one passenger was taken to the hospital and several people were reported injured after the plane made the emergency landing in Philadelphia, officials said.

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I figured this deserved a bump!

Take note the broken window is actually behind the wing. How crazy...so glad everyone is ok.

evan_aggie said:

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I'm not trying to be a contrarian, but there have been VERY few fatalities or injuries due to contained engine failures that have harmed people within the cabin.

Structural failure due to cracks or compartment doors have probably caused more "proximity" fatalities than being located near an engine. Moreover, statistically they've come out and shown where you have a marginally higher chance of surviving an incident not being located above/aside to the center and wing tanks.

There is nothing "inherently" wrong with flying an older plane, but the truth is that carriers buying used aircraft that have been in service for 15-20 years typically do not receive the same quality of eye-balls from maintenance. Your point and comment reiterates this: they outsource to whoever they can, probably based on a decent price (ie, low bid), and continuity of A&P mechanics is probably less.

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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/04/17/southwest-airlines-planes-engine-explodes-passenger-reportedly-hit-with-shrapnel.html

that's crazy.

Calling BS on anyone being "sucked out of the plane". If nothing else, adults can't fit through those windows.

evan_aggie said:

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I figured this deserved a bump!

Take note the broken window is actually behind the wing. How crazy...so glad everyone is ok.

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One fatality

Tabasco said:

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evan_aggie said:

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I figured this deserved a bump!

Take note the broken window is actually behind the wing. How crazy...so glad everyone is ok.

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One fatality

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evan_aggie said:

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Tabasco said:

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evan_aggie said:

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I figured this deserved a bump!

Take note the broken window is actually behind the wing. How crazy...so glad everyone is ok.

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One fatality

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Yikes! I caught the last 1/2 of a 60 Minutes story on Allegiant Air. They've been investigating them for the last few years over their much older than average planes, higher than average mechanical failure rates, lack of accurate documenting/reporting of major safety events (They interviewed three passengers from one flight who recalled the cabin filling with smoke just after landing. The pilots came over the intercom and asked the passengers to pull their shirts up over their nose and mouth and breathe through that.), and basically overall lack of oversight by the FAA.

As I was watching, I kept thinking "That's why I don't fly Allegiant". Southwest is typically my go-to.

Here is the Allegiant story, if anyone is interested.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/allegiant-air-the-budget-airline-flying-under-the-radar/

I believe this is Southwest's first in-flight/passenger fatality. A passenger in a car died a number of years ago when a Southwest plane skidded off the runway and hit the car.

Yup, that was in Chicago. I remember that story.

Not to get into morbid details, but have they mentioned how the person died? Someone I work with said they heard a story about a defibrillator being used, which I thought was odd if it was from serious blood loss or trauma.

Perhaps Allegiant's problems will be a thing of the past when they move to the A320s, but I doubt it. You don't have to search long on aviation forums to find stories from pilots telling pretty bad stories about their issues with maintenance.

There were reports of another passenger having a heart attack. No reports yet about whether the passenger who died was the heart attack victim or the person next to the window.

evan_aggie said:

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Yup, that was in Chicago. I remember that story.

Not to get into morbid details, but have they mentioned how the person died? Someone I work with said they heard a story about a defibrillator being used, which I thought was odd if it was from serious blood loss or trauma.

Perhaps Allegiant's problems will be a thing of the past when they move to the A320s, but I doubt it. You don't have to search long on aviation forums to find stories from pilots telling pretty bad stories about their issues with maintenance.

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The transition to the A320s was part of the story. But, evidently they are still flying MD-80s. When I heard that, it made me think of this thread. The story also reminded us that Allegiant Air is what rose out of the ashes of Value-Jet.

To be fair, AA is still flying MDs through 2019...

evan_aggie said:

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To be fair, AA is still flying MDs through 2019...

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Yeah, that was mentioned in a previous post in this thread. When I heard the story on Sunday, I thought "They aren't the only ones."

bthotugigem05 said:

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There were reports of another passenger having a heart attack. No reports yet about whether the passenger who died was the heart attack victim or the person next to the window.

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Or if they were both the same woman

CanyonAg77 said:

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Calling BS on anyone being "sucked out of the plane". If nothing else, adults can't fit through those windows.

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From the CNN story: Something in the engine broke apart midair and burst through the window, passengers said. The shattered window partially sucked a woman out of the plane as passengers struggled to pull her back in.

I figured this thread would resurface. I came to eat my crow. Will be interesting to read NTSB report on this.

If she truly had part of her head and arm out the window, I would think the force from the wind itself would have done significant damage.

I recall reading that a person would have to be balled up to not break bones and extremeties if they were to exit a plane at 500mph.

evan_aggie said:

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If she truly had part of her head and arm out the window, I would think the force from the wind itself would have done significant damage.

I recall reading that a person would have to be balled up to not break bones and extremeties if they were to exit a plane at 500mph.

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A British Airways Pilot was partially sucked out through the windshield of the cockpit. A flight attendant managed to hold on to him by his belt for twenty minutes while the co-pilot landed the plane. He survived, but did have frostbite, bruising, shock, and fractures to his arm.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_5390

wildcat08 said:

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CanyonAg77 said:

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Calling BS on anyone being "sucked out of the plane". If nothing else, adults can't fit through those windows.

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From the CNN story: Something in the engine broke apart midair and burst through the window, passengers said. The shattered window partially sucked a woman out of the plane as passengers struggled to pull her back in.

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You believe CNN?

TXTransplant said:

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evan_aggie said:

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To be fair, AA is still flying MDs through 2019...

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Yeah, that was mentioned in a previous post in this thread. When I heard the story on Sunday, I thought "They aren't the only ones."

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But to also be fair, you would have to consider the maintenance program AA uses on their fleet as well as their overall safety culture versus Allegiant's. If you watch the story linked above (and everything they presented is factual) the comparisons to ValueJet are likely pretty accurate. I would think if AA was having these issues it would be all over the news.

AgCPA95 said:

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TXTransplant said:

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evan_aggie said:

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To be fair, AA is still flying MDs through 2019...

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Yeah, that was mentioned in a previous post in this thread. When I heard the story on Sunday, I thought "They aren't the only ones."

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But to also be fair, you would have to consider the maintenance program AA uses on their fleet as well as their overall safety culture versus Allegiant's. If you watch the story linked above (and everything they presented is factual) the comparisons to ValueJet are likely pretty accurate. I would think if AA was having these issues it would be all over the news.

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Yes, I understood all that watching the story. Allegiant's safety/incident record is much worse than AA's despite the fact that they both fly old MD 80s. That's why I pointed out that AA isn't the only airline flying them. I wasn't trying to be unfair; I was recognizing that there are at least two airlines flying old planes, but with very different safety stories.

It seems reasonable to expect that older planes will have significantly more maintenance issues, but AA appears to be handling them much better than Allegiant. And the issues at Allegiant seemto be systemic/cultural, which means that transitioning to A320s probably isn't going to solve all of their problems.

When I asked my son to turn on 60 Minutes on Sunday night, literally, one of the first things I heard was MD-80, and I immediately thought of this thread and started paying attention to the story (I'd already missed about the first 1/2 of it). Thought it was a strange coincidence, given the discussion here, but the engine failure yesterday is an even stranger coincidence.

I always thought the "newer" Delta MD88/MD90 were pretty nice and quiet because the engine was so far back. You also had the 2-3 layout which I appreciated because I was usually traveling with just myself and one other. It did make the luggage orientation mildly annoying.

Another Southwest flight had an emergency landing after a bird strike.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/04/18/southwest-airlines-flight-forced-to-land-after-bird-strike-day-after-plane-engine-explodes-killing-passenger.html

evan_aggie said:

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I always thought the "newer" Delta MD88/MD90 were pretty nice and quiet because the engine was so far back. You also had the 2-3 layout which I appreciated because I was usually traveling with just myself and one other. It did make the luggage orientation mildly annoying.

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Those planes are being phased out. Being replaced with Airbus 321s. Nicer planes with more legroom.

It's sounding like the passenger was killed by the shrapnel - significant neck wound. Which that would not be surprising at all given the force it would take to put that kind of hole in an airplane and the fact her head/neck would have been inches from it.

I saw the Allegiant air story. Crazy. They fired a pilot for detecting smoke and ordering an emergency evac - they deemed it was unnecessary (which is more code for didn't like the negative publicity). So the next guy that has smoke in the cabin has the flight attendants pass out wet napkins (while already on the ground) while the passengers spend 15 minutes inhaling what turns out to be toxic fumes from hydraulic fluid that was burning. They roll up the stairs so the passengers can appear to exit "normally" out the back, and constantly remind them to grab their carryon so nothing looks that amiss.

yeah after watching the 60 minutes story my immediate thoughts went to wondering if spirit, frontier or any other discount airline has the same leadership/management issues as allegiance. Don't think spirit or frontier's fleet are near as old as allegiant but they certainly operate under the same business model.

Yeah, it's not so much the age of the planes that is my concern (by itself) as much as it is the culture of being willing to sacrifice safety to save a few bucks + put people in harm's way to avoid bad publicity. Obviously, the concern about the older plane becomes much greater when you know the company isn't being vigilant about maintenance or safety.

evan_aggie said:

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I would recommend everyone take major airlines whenever possible. More affordable airlines with little to no name recognition usually use planes that have a much older average age. Many times they purchase aircraft second hand from tier 1 airlines to establish their fleet.

You have big airlines unloading 15-20 year old planes that are either less fuel efficient or simply too costly to maintain. Much like a vehicle over 120,000 Miles: something is eventually going to break even if the driver is excellent.

That being said: budget or smaller airlines aren't employing top dollar mechanics or pilots. They are using older aircraft and saving costs in everyway they can. I refuse to fly Allegiant from Austin to Vegas even though they are incredibly cheap.

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Hate to burst your bubble, but Spirit has the youngest average aged fleet in the industry, with frontier at #2, both about the cheapest airlines right now.


https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/07/03/average-fleet-age-of-the-10-major-us-airlines.aspx