DannyDuberstein said:

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Yeah, it's not so much the age of the planes that is my concern as much as it is the culture of being willing to sacrifice safety to save a few bucks + put people in harm's way to avoid bad publicity.

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That and the fact that the FAA was giving them a pass because they want to encourage compliance rather than do enforcement. Seems to me, you encourage compliance by slapping fines on airlines that don't comply. Allegiant shouldn't be allowed to become one of the country's most profitable airlines (as is asserted in the story) by compromising passenger safety.

62strat said:

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evan_aggie said:

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I would recommend everyone take major airlines whenever possible. More affordable airlines with little to no name recognition usually use planes that have a much older average age. Many times they purchase aircraft second hand from tier 1 airlines to establish their fleet.

You have big airlines unloading 15-20 year old planes that are either less fuel efficient or simply too costly to maintain. Much like a vehicle over 120,000 Miles: something is eventually going to break even if the driver is excellent.

That being said: budget or smaller airlines aren't employing top dollar mechanics or pilots. They are using older aircraft and saving costs in everyway they can. I refuse to fly Allegiant from Austin to Vegas even though they are incredibly cheap.

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Hate to burst your bubble, but Spirit has the youngest average aged fleet in the industry, with frontier at #2, both about the cheapest airlines right now.


https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/07/03/average-fleet-age-of-the-10-major-us-airlines.aspx

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I would have thought Delta had the oldest fleet but looks like they are #2. They have too many of the MD80/90 planes. Those things are so ancient. It's a wonder they are just falling like flies. At a minimum they are 17 years old.

I'm surprised AA's fleet is that young given the # of MD80's I thought they still had, although I know they've been phasing out.

I suspect Delta was afforded a slight reprieve in the urgency to rid themselves of the older 767/757 aircraft when oil prices started dropping a few years back. Plus it is incredible to read about the wait time for replacement aircraft.

A lot of the new models: 737Max, A320Neo, 787, A350, etc have backlogs for years.

62strat said:

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evan_aggie said:

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I would recommend everyone take major airlines whenever possible. More affordable airlines with little to no name recognition usually use planes that have a much older average age. Many times they purchase aircraft second hand from tier 1 airlines to establish their fleet.

You have big airlines unloading 15-20 year old planes that are either less fuel efficient or simply too costly to maintain. Much like a vehicle over 120,000 Miles: something is eventually going to break even if the driver is excellent.

That being said: budget or smaller airlines aren't employing top dollar mechanics or pilots. They are using older aircraft and saving costs in everyway they can. I refuse to fly Allegiant from Austin to Vegas even though they are incredibly cheap.

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Hate to burst your bubble, but Spirit has the youngest average aged fleet in the industry, with frontier at #2, both about the cheapest airlines right now.


https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/07/03/average-fleet-age-of-the-10-major-us-airlines.aspx

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certainly the age of the fleet plays a factor, but has been previously stated, the operating & maintenance culture is just as, if not more important than the age of the planes.

CanyonAg77 said:

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wildcat08 said:

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CanyonAg77 said:

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Calling BS on anyone being "sucked out of the plane". If nothing else, adults can't fit through those windows.

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From the CNN story: Something in the engine broke apart midair and burst through the window, passengers said. The shattered window partially sucked a woman out of the plane as passengers struggled to pull her back in.

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You believe CNN?

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There are many eyewitness accounts of this happening:

Quote:

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One of the people they rushed to assist, Jennifer Riordan, a New Mexico bank executive, was pulled from the plane when parts from the engine smashed her window. In conversations with The Dallas Morning News and with other media, passengers described massive trauma to Riordan's body, which had been hit by glass and then partially sucked out the window.

"I tried to get her back in. I wasn't strong enough" said North Texas resident Tim McGinty in an interview with NBC. That's when firefighter Andrew Needum, whose wife and two children were also on board, stepped in to help. The two men pulled Riordan back into the plane, reports said.

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https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2018/04/18/amid-chaos-southwest-flight-1380-heroes-arose

She was all the way out of the window to her waist.

And supposedly had her seatbelt on as well.

Yeah can we talk about this? Really curious how she passed and other people were fine walking around to help her?

So what I imagine is she is sitting at the window seat (seatbelt or not), the window shatters, and due to decompression she was sucked into the window and possible halfway out... in the process getting banged around by the turbulence, etc. and suffering trauma which later caused her to die?

I assume as soon as the decompression event happens the pilot will lower speed and altitude so then other passengers are able to get up and help? Bc if the suction is that strong how did no one else or nothing else get sucked out?

She apparently got bashed with shrapnel. I'd imagine immediately unconscious and limp, which then facilitates her getting pulled partway out.

You can see a sizeable gash in the plastic well inside the window (lower left), which is approaching where her neck/head would have been.

lazuras_dc said:

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Yeah can we talk about this? Really curious how she passed and other people were fine walking around to help her?

So what I imagine is she is sitting at the window seat (seatbelt or not), the window shatters, and due to decompression she was sucked into the window and possible halfway out... in the process getting banged around by the turbulence, etc. and suffering trauma which later caused her to die?

I assume as soon as the decompression event happens the pilot will lower speed and altitude so then other passengers are able to get up and help? Bc if the suction is that strong how did no one else or nothing else get sucked out?

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It sounds like she probably temporarily 'plugged' the window, which maybe lessened the 'suction' force.

well and once the decompression event happens the pressures are equal inside and outside of the cabin pretty quickly, correct?

Yes. Within seconds.

lazuras_dc said:

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I assume as soon as the decompression event happens the pilot will lower speed and altitude so then other passengers are able to get up and help? Bc if the suction is that strong how did no one else or nothing else get sucked out?

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If you look at the flightaware chart, they went from 32,500 feet to 17,000 feet in about 4 minutes which is a fast decent compared to gradual glide that you start on a normal flight. That is likely why you heard people thinking they were "going down". At that point you are not slowing down due to the descent. They were going about 450mph when the engine failed and were up to 520mph while trying to deal with depressurization.

Crazy- scary no doubt and very sad about the lady who passed. But Im encouraged to know that a plane can be safely landed after what seems to be a catostrophic failure!

Honestly, after hearing about the decompression I thought the plane might have wound up looking kind of like this

If I recall correctly, Aloha experienced it first because the island hopping was so short: they had far more cycles of pressurization and depressurization than Boeing anticipated in the lifetime of the aircraft. The engineers didn't guard-band the use case enough...

Jock 07 said:

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Honestly, after hearing about the decompression I thought the plane might have wound up looking kind of like this

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Aloha didn't decompress. The top of the fuselage popped off. Then it decompressed. As long as the structure was intact, decompression is not a big deal

Just discovered Netflix has gone the same route - instead of providing a text summary of the movie/documentary/tv show as was before - now it is background music with a random looped video of the offering with no obvious story content. Yep, the story is there but you have to make another click to get there.

Thanks millennials.

This is an amazing part of the story that I guess came out a few days ago, but I didn't see it until today.

http://newsok.com/article/5591710/ou-professor-attempted-to-save-woman-partially-sucked-out-of-southwest-flight

In summary, a 13 year old girl was in the middle seat, and a female prof from OK was in the aisle seat. They tried to pull her back in but weren't strong enough. Because of the noise, they couldn't get anyone's attention to help them. The woman and the girl held on for 10 minutes until the men came and pulled her back in.

I have a 13 year old son who often flies Southwest alone, so this is especially touching to me.

TXTransplant said:

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This is an amazing part of the story that I guess came out a few days ago, but I didn't see it until today.

http://newsok.com/article/5591710/ou-professor-attempted-to-save-woman-partially-sucked-out-of-southwest-flight

In summary, a 13 year old girl was in the middle seat, and a female prof from OK was in the aisle seat. They tried to pull her back in but weren't strong enough. Because of the noise, they couldn't get anyone's attention to help them. The woman and the girl held on for 10 minutes until the men came and pulled her back in.

I have a 13 year old son who often flies Southwest alone, so this is especially touching to me.

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Thanks for sharing the article. Feel terrible for the victim.

Can you imagine how traumatized that 13-year-old girl is that was seated next to her?

Tabasco said:

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Can you imagine how traumatized that 13-year-old girl is that was seated next to her?

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I've been thinking about that ever since I read the article. When I told my son what happened, even he was upset. But we wound up having a really good conversation about what to do if there should ever be an emergency on one of his flights. We talked about the importance of staying calm but also trying to help if someone next to you is in distress. I regret not having had the conversation sooner, but I never imagined a situation like this.

TXTransplant said:

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evan_aggie said:

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Yup, that was in Chicago. I remember that story.

Not to get into morbid details, but have they mentioned how the person died? Someone I work with said they heard a story about a defibrillator being used, which I thought was odd if it was from serious blood loss or trauma.

Perhaps Allegiant's problems will be a thing of the past when they move to the A320s, but I doubt it. You don't have to search long on aviation forums to find stories from pilots telling pretty bad stories about their issues with maintenance.

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The transition to the A320s was part of the story. But, evidently they are still flying MD-80s. When I heard that, it made me think of this thread. The story also reminded us that Allegiant Air is what rose out of the ashes of Value-Jet.

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Valujet merged with AirTran which was bought by Southwest. I think Allegiant may have some of the same cast of characters as Valujet.

CanyonAg77 said:

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Quote:

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Uncontained fan disk, turbine blade, or prop blade failure happens occasionally, and can easily send metal shrapnel into the fuselage. Aircraft with tail-mounted engines are of particular concern here, due to the proximity of the engines to the cabin. The last couple of rows on the MD-80 should be avoided at all costs IMO.

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So...I've scanned some NTSB reports, as well as my memory. I don't recall any such passenger injuries. Even on the DC-10 crash where the Aggie pilot miraculously landed, and saved lots of people, the fan disk explosion did not penetrate the cabin and cause injuries, to my knowledge.

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[url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_Flight_1288[/url]

A couple of people killed on this Delta MD88.

I flew the MD80 for at least 10 years at two different airlines. Experienced runaway stab trim at FL310 and electrical failure on takeoff out of BUR. I think AA has less than 60 MD88's left. I believe at one time there were 260 in the fleet.

The engine on the MD80 is incredibly reliable if properly maintained just like anything mechanical, yet things can still happen. I enjoyed flying the MD80 but don't miss it.

I flew the 737-800 for 7 years. The CFM engines are incredibly reliable and have lots of power. I really enjoyed the 737 as well although it's not my favorite "handling" aircraft.

Others have already proved me wrong that it "never" happens. It's still statistically insignificant, sort of like the opposite of winning the lottery.

GoHomeLeg said:

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TXTransplant said:

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evan_aggie said:

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Yup, that was in Chicago. I remember that story.

Not to get into morbid details, but have they mentioned how the person died? Someone I work with said they heard a story about a defibrillator being used, which I thought was odd if it was from serious blood loss or trauma.

Perhaps Allegiant's problems will be a thing of the past when they move to the A320s, but I doubt it. You don't have to search long on aviation forums to find stories from pilots telling pretty bad stories about their issues with maintenance.

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The transition to the A320s was part of the story. But, evidently they are still flying MD-80s. When I heard that, it made me think of this thread. The story also reminded us that Allegiant Air is what rose out of the ashes of Value-Jet.

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Valujet merged with AirTran which was bought by Southwest. I think Allegiant may have some of the same cast of characters as Valujet.

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Forgot about AirTran. But the current CEO of Allegiant was associated with the start up of ValueJet (and WestAir). He was also a board member of ValueJet. He is also the single biggest shareholder of Allegiant.

AirTran actually existed separately from ValueJet. They merged in 1997 after two serious ValueJet accidents (including the crash in the Everglades). Because ValueJet was much bigger, it was considered the nominal survivor of the merger, but they took the AirTran name for obvious reasons.

At the time of the merger, AirTran operated 737s. ValueJet only had DC-9s and MD-80s and was identified as being one of the oldest fleets in America (their planes averaged 27 years).

In 1999, a whole new senior management team was put in place at AirTran.

In 2011, AirTran had the best safety record of all the US airlines.

By the time Southwest decided to by AirTran in 2010, they were only flying 737s and 717s; all the MD planes had been retired.

Seems like the leadership/corporate culture associated with the problems at ValueJet broke off at the time of the AirTran merger and went on to form Allegiant.

I do remember being disappointed when SW bought AirTran (because of the ValueJet association), but it's clear that the corporate cultur/leadership was/is vastly different.

CanyonAg77 said:

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Others have already proved me wrong that it "never" happens. It's still statistically insignificant, sort of like the opposite of winning the lottery.

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Hi Canyon, not trying to prove you wrong. Just highlighting an incident forgotten by most, but not forgotten by those who lost loved ones or by those who fly the MD80.

I'm not insulted or bothered. No harm, no foul.

GoHomeLeg said:

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CanyonAg77 said:

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Others have already proved me wrong that it "never" happens. It's still statistically insignificant, sort of like the opposite of winning the lottery.

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Hi Canyon, not trying to prove you wrong. Just highlighting an incident forgotten by most, but not forgotten by those who lost loved ones or by those who fly the MD80.

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When I was digging up that info on ValueJet, I found reference to two incidents that ultimately resulted in their demise: the Everglades crash, and flight 597.

597 was a DC-9 that had an aborted takeoff after a catastrophic engine failure. Shrapnel penetrated the fuselage and the cabin caught on fire. The plane stopped on the runway and was evacuated. One flight attendant was injured by shrapnel. The failure of the engine was caused by rusted engine components (crack in a compressor disk) that wasn't noticed because a proper inspection was not done.

GoHomeLeg said:

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I flew the MD80 for at least 10 years at two different airlines. Experienced runaway stab trim at FL310 and electrical failure on takeoff out of BUR. I think AA has less than 60 MD88's left. I believe at one time there were 260 in the fleet.

The engine on the MD80 is incredibly reliable if properly maintained just like anything mechanical, yet things can still happen. I enjoyed flying the MD80 but don't miss it.

I flew the 737-800 for 7 years. The CFM engines are incredibly reliable and have lots of power. I really enjoyed the 737 as well although it's not my favorite "handling" aircraft.

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You ever flown the A320? Curious how it compares to the 737 in the cockpit and overall experience as a pilot.