He's the greatest baseball player to ever live.

The discussion now should be where he ranks amongst all the greatest athletes of all time.

Greatest performance in baseball history.

I remember seeing Reggie Jackson's 3 HR game in the '78(?) WS, and that was special. This wasn't the WS, but damn, I cannot come up with a better postseason game performance. Not in my lifetime anyway.

Quote:

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On October 18, 1977, in the sixth game of the World Series against the Los Angeles Dodgers, New York Yankees outfielder Reggie Jackson hits three home runs in a row off of three consecutive pitches from three different pitchers.

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I remember that game. Mr. October. I was a Dodgers fan and lived in LA, at the time.

Ohtani is the greatest MLB player ever. As my wife has said... you can't help but wonder if there will be an asterisk by his name one day.

He has changed the rules of baseball and is doing things not even done in the road years.

Ouch I was off by a year, but that was a special performance. Ohtani's on another planet right now. I sure hope there's no cause for an asterisk - I'd like to just enjoy this for what it appears to be.

Edited to add: I was rooting for LAD over NYY too - born in Inglewood, lived in Huntington Beach briefly.

Post game they said Bob Gibson had 10ks and a HR in a WS game twice.

Gibson was also the reason they lowered the mound.

Nice, but Gibson had to bat (at home) back then. Not to finish his feats. Ohtani's better than any DH they have.

What do you mean by an asterisk? Are you inferring he's cheating? Or are you alluding to the gambling?

I'm confused here.

Also, dick move to post that with no evidence on the night that Ohtani has arguably the best game in baseball history.

3-3 with 3 homers including a leadoff homer. Also works a walk for good measure. I was hoping he'd get one more at bat in the 8th to go for his 4th bomb.

+

6 innings of shutout ball with 10k's on the mound.


And he does all of this in a close out game to send the dodgers back to the world series.

The 60s was pre DH so Gibson batted home or away in the world series.

Kind of a separate idea here, but I really wish all pitchers still hit. The truth is that most guys growing up do both and are really good at it. Skenes won the two way player of the year award when he was at USAFA and I'd love to see him hit. De Grom and Fried are excellent hitters and through history we've had guys like Mike Hampton adding tons of value with the bat.

Universal DH also killed off the role of the professional pinch hitter which was one of my favorite things to watch strategy wise.

AggieEP said:

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The 60s was pre DH so Gibson batted home or away in the world series.

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Yeah, my bad. Point still stands though. Gibson had to hit; Ohtani gets to hit because there's not a better alternative.

The Lakers are Showtime, the Dodgers are Sho Time.

La Fours said:

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Tap the breaks there. It is not a dick move.

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Why isn't it a dick move? The guy has been in the big leagues for 8 years, has 3 (going to be 4) MVP awards and we can casually accuse him of cheating on what basis?

Perhaps he's juicing, but I think MLB has a pretty good track record at this point of catching and suspending people including stars. Why not just wait until he's caught before casting doubt on his achievements.

All publicly available information we have on Shohei indicates that he just lives baseball all day and all night spending every free moment working on preparing his body for success. He's the ultimate example of someone perfecting their craft.

Mainly… Because it is a message board and it's not that serious.

But also, he's insanely talented, and it is almost too good to be true.

Agreed that it's a message board and not that serious.

I guess I'm just ready to have moved on past the "every guy that has a great year is cheating" conversations that used to dominate baseball. I don't see the utility in casting doubt on guys with no evidence outside of "he had a great year."

The PED thing is overplayed these days. Players get busted every year. Mainly Minor Leaguers from the Carribean and Latin America.

However, in Ohtani's case, if he was caught, I think it would be covered up.

I'm not accusing him, to be sure. I think he's a great player and was seeing beach balls at the plate last night.

I will say that the gambling thing sure looked fishy. And I'll always believe the interpreter was the fall guy.

Fuzzy Dunlop said:

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The PED thing is overplayed these days. Players get busted every year. Mainly Minor Leaguers from the Carribean and Latin America.

However, in Ohtani's case, if he was caught, I think it would be covered up.

I'm not accusing him, to be sure. I think he's a great player and was seeing beach balls at the plate last night.

I will say that the gambling thing sure looked fishy. And I'll always believe the interpreter was the fall guy.

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Completely agree with this. Baseball will cover up a lot for popular/generational players.

Personally, I think the whole asterisk thing is total BS anyway.

The stats are what the stats are. Now if you don't want to put players like Bonds, Rose, Clemens, etc. in the HOF because of whatever issues they were guilty of, or accused of, then that's fine. But the stats should be listed without disclaimers. JMO

rbtexan said:

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Personally, I think the whole asterisk thing is total BS anyway.

The stats are what the stats are. Now if you don't want to put players like Bonds, Rose, Clemens, etc. in the HOF because of whatever issues they were guilty of, or accused of, then that's fine. But the stats should be listed without disclaimers. JMO

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Agree with this as well. IMO, if you put up great numbers then you are a great player no matter whern you play.

Dick move?

You realize that A-Rod tested positive by MLB for PEDs in the season he won the MVP. MLB has shown money and marquee players supersede the rules.

Ohtani's involvement with gambling is well documented. There is zero chance Ohtani gave unadministered access to his bank account with the ability to transfer millions without knowledge. Not sure how the evidence and crime compare to Clase... but MLB has been less than transparent here.

MLB bought Rawlings baseball and controls the production and distribution of baseballs in MLB. The ball has been altered every season.

https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-to-alter-baseballs-for-2021

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According to the Associated Press, a memo sent to all 30 clubs last week cited an independent lab that found the new balls will fly one to two feet shorter on balls hit over 375 feet.

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https://dodgerblue.com/mlb-denies-intentional-changes-made-to-baseballs-for-2025-season/2025/06/22/

Quote:

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Some stability was achieved but there has been a notable deviation this season with the drag on the ball. The mean drag coefficient is .3514, down from .3462 in 2024. Equally hard-hit balls are coming up four feet short, on average, compared to last year.

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So, we know MLB is fiddling with the ball. I believe I saw a report a year or two ago, where it was found that the ball MLB used for the playoffs was different than the one used during the regular season. A similar report during Judge's record HR season indicated the balls used at Yankee stadium were different and carried further than balls found with two other characteristics. Meaning, there were 3 baseballs used in that season. MLB said the balls were randomly distributed and that there may have been balls from the previous year (that traveled farther) used during that season. Apparently, it just so happened that all of the balls that tested to carry farther had only been used at Yankee stadium.

We also know that ar GLF, the ball carried less than any other stadium. Given the ball characterics, launch angle, and exit velocity, assuming calibration is correct, you should be able to reliably predict travel distance. If your travel distance is consistently less, then you have bad information. The ball is the variable.

Is there any wrong doing? Is there a consipiracy? I don't know, but MLB is doing everything possible to insert doubt about these things.

What we do know is... you can no longer compare statistics from season to season because MLB is admitting to altering the ball and fans have no way of knowing how the ball compares season-to-season. Could it be the source of the increased TJ surgeries?!

Wow, some real Ohtani fans on here. Best player ever? That's questionable.

He had a great game. He was 1-18 in the Philly series and batting .150 in the playoffs coming into the last game.

For his career he has 280 home runs and a pitching record of 39-20 with an ERA of 3.00.

280 HRs puts him at #202 All-Time in MLB.

He was ROY. He is a 3x MVP and a 1xMVP-2. He will likely be MVP for 2025. His 2nd season, and the 2020 season are the only seasons he hasn't registered. He is 30 and his 28yo, 29yo, and 30yo seasons (the last 3) indicate he is only getting better.

He is averaging 40 HRs per season... and while it still needs to be played out, if he hits 120 HRs over the next 3 season, which will all be years considered in his prime, that would put him at 400HRs at 33. That will put him at 60th All-Time. 500 HRs gets you 29th All-Time.

The 3.00 ERA is impressive. His 39Ws are irrelevant. He played for the Angels, and this year he is averaging 3IP/GS, so he hasn't really qualified for Ws. 45IPs per season with a 3.00 ERA is relevant to any team. He is coming off TJ, so we'll see how much pitching he gets.

His performance in G4 was one for the ages. I'd be interested in performances that anyone considers more impressive for the playoffs.

BTW... did you see that 2nd HR?! 469' and cleared the awning.

I didn't read all of that, but caught the tail end of the post. The ball does not have anything to do with the increase in TJ surgeries. It has everything to do with kids playing baseball year round in an effort to get a college scholarship and making the better teams with the most exposure by having the highest velocity. And they are pressured into increasing velocity through select ball, high school, college and minors.

AggieEP said:

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If you consider both the pitching and hitting part of baseball in order to decide the greatest player of all time then we are deciding really only between Babe Ruth and Shohei Ohtani.

If we decide that's unfair because so few two way players have ever tried to make it work... ok I can grant that argument. But then still Ohtani has won an MVP as a pure hitter last year. He is the only player to ever have a 50/50 year. If he wanted to, I'm pretty sure he would be a gold glove right fielder combining his speed and arm strength.

Looking at career totals like 280 hrs is a really narrow way to judge best ever. I've watched a lot of baseball and Shohei is pretty clearly among the top 2 or 3 guys to ever play the game.

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I truly think he is one of the e top 2 or 3 to ever play. I think his abilities play well in all eras.

Bonds, Cabrera, Pujols, Trout, ARod, Judge, Ohtani.

Best players I've seen in the past 25 years. Anyone I'm missing? Couldn't go wrong with any of them during their best 6 - 8 year peaks.

I don't disagree about the primary reasons and some of the things that happen in Youth sports. I've seen it.

Having said that, Glasnow blamed his TJ surgery on MLB enforcing the sticky-stuff ban causing him to grip the ball harder with each pitch. Fluctuating the weight of the ball to increase/decrease the drag on the ball will certainly impact how a pitcher moves the ball.

A few weeks ago, there was a conversation about the weight of the bats. Somebody questioned whether a hitter would know if the weight varied. The guy indicated that Albert Pujols was 100% right when he was tested about bats that varied 1oz. Pujols had a very specific weight and if it varied 1oz, he could identify it.
https://www.facebook.com/reel/3509891309150589

The real point of my post was that season-to-season, we can no longer compare players. We can't be assured that different teams don't get different baseballs than other teams.

That isn't conspiracy or projection. It is what MLB has said.

Mookie Betts and Juan Soto are probably up there

OPS+ has been a stat I've liked following.
Bonds: 182 in 22 yrs
Judge: 179 in 10
Trout: 169 in 15
Soto: 160 in 8 <- at 26, has yet to reach his prime
Ohtani: 160 in 8
Pujols: 145 in 22
A-Rod: 140 in 22
Cabrera: 140 in 21
Betts: 135 in 12
Beltre: 116 in 21 <-his OPS+ was 128 aged 33+

I added names mentioned to the original list.

This is why you can't compare players now. If Bonds and A-Rod were known PED users and also played against pitchers who were PED users, you really can't tell if players today are better.

Take Judge. I just showed were the baseball is admittedly by MLB designed to carry 4' less in distance. However, Judge is statistically similar to Bond. Is Judge that much better than Bonds?! So much better than Bonds used PEDs and a ball that carried 4' farther and yet Judge is similar?!

We can credit the short RF wall, but OPS+ accounts for that and Judges' H/A splits are not dramatically different. HRs: 189/179. .302 vs .285 OPS 1.060 vs 0.997

Back to the Rangers.

I think keeping deGrom gives the Rangers a phenomenal rotation and with minor tweaking to the O, we are a playoff team with no additions.

Having said that, the NYMets are likely going to go all out this offseason like they always do.

I think a reunion with deGrom would interest them. Trade deGrom for at least 2 of their T6 prospects. We'd get a SP and O player that are likely ready to contribute. We'd unload a big salary, get team control over some high valued prospects and still be pretty good.

deGrom to NYM is the only way I'd trade deGrom. Basically just based on the sentimental/historical relationship they have. You can tell their fans and him are still tied.

DallasAg 94 said:

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OPS+ has been a stat I've liked following.
Bonds: 182 in 22 yrs
Judge: 179 in 10
Trout: 169 in 15
Soto: 160 in 8 <- at 26, has yet to reach his prime
Ohtani: 160 in 8
Pujols: 145 in 22
A-Rod: 140 in 22
Cabrera: 140 in 21
Betts: 135 in 12
Beltre: 116 in 21 <-his OPS+ was 128 aged 33+

I added names mentioned to the original list.

This is why you can't compare players now. If Bonds and A-Rod were known PED users and also played against pitchers who were PED users, you really can't tell if players today are better.

Take Judge. I just showed were the baseball is admittedly by MLB designed to carry 4' less in distance. However, Judge is statistically similar to Bond. Is Judge that much better than Bonds?! So much better than Bonds used PEDs and a ball that carried 4' farther and yet Judge is similar?!

We can credit the short RF wall, but OPS+ accounts for that and Judges' H/A splits are not dramatically different. HRs: 189/179. .302 vs .285 OPS 1.060 vs 0.997

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Those are interesting numbers. The question often comes up about longevity vs. peak years. The HoF requires 10 years of service. Just for sake of argument, I wonder who the top players are if we just cherry-pick their best 10 seasons. Or, assume a player alternated 60HR seasons with 20HR seasons for 10 years, the OPS+ for the top 5 cherry-picked seasons would also be interesting.

I'd like to see odds on 2026 AL Cy Young. I have a feeling about Leiter.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/tools/share.fcgi?id=zvAtb

Most seasons over 150 OPS+

I mean, if we're talking all around baseball player, Ohtani isn't close. Stats have mattered in this game for going on 150 years. He's incredibly "unique" in that he hits for power, average, has speed, and can pitch, which is something we haven't seen in our lifetime.

He's obviously not an elite pitcher. Not even close. He'll be 32 next season with 39 wins. Finished 4th in Cy Young once. If he starts piling up the Cy Young awards then the conversation changes.

Zero gold gloves as a pitcher. Fielding matters too. Greg Maddux won 18 gold gloves.

In terms of "greatest of all time", we overvalue the fact that he pitches, as if that is the hardest position on the field to play. It's not. If it was, guys like Bartolo Colon and Jamie Moyer wouldn't stay in the league for 20 years. Guys develop into pitchers because they want to, or because defensively they aren't strong enough to play anywhere else, and their hitting skills don't equate to pro baseball.

Take someone like Pudge. He caught for 20 seasons! Ohtani has played 8 seasons, and essentially pitched in 3.5 seasons. Pudge was a 14 time all star, won 13 gold gloves, batted almost .300 and hit over 300 home runs. Ohtani will never come close to sniffing any of the above.

Looks like ALCS is going 7. Will be interesting to see if George Kirby can get it done. I've been pretty neutral but starting to lean toward Seattle.

DA, help me understand how Toronto signed Vlad Jr as an international free agent in 2015 at age 16 for $3.9 million. Jr grew up in the DR. Did Toronto offer the most money or did they somehow end up with the most international pool money, so it worked in their favor? Are DR kids essentially free agents that can sign with any team, based on their pool available?

Edit: DA, a brief summary is fine. Don't crack your knuckles and feel like you need to pull an all-nighter on this.