Chandler Rome reports that no other changes are expected to the coaching staff. Many fans have clamored for a shake up in the hitting lab, but that does not appear imminent. Last year’s swing early, swing often approach left quite a bit to be desired.
— The Astros Locker (@TheAstrosLocker) October 14, 2024
***** 2024 Houston Astros Season Thread ***** [Staff Warning]
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Last: 1 mo ago by jkag89
The Braves fired their hitting coach. Makes sense to me Snitker goes to work for his dad.
Kind of funny we blame the assistant coaches when the real problem is an increasing talent deficit. We have too many AAAA, 9 hole type hitters in this lineup. This is what a return to normalcy looks like. Not saying you don't do something about it but that something should primarily be replacing bad hitters. Changing coaches can often a be crutch to say you did something rather than addressing the real issue.
Kind of funny we blame the assistant coaches when the real problem is an increasing talent deficit. We have too many AAAA, 9 hole type hitters in this lineup. This is what a return to normalcy looks like. Not saying you don't do something about it but that something should primarily be replacing bad hitters. Changing coaches can often a be crutch to say you did something rather than addressing the real issue.
IMHO, which counts for zero, I'd like to see them tear down and rebuild around Alvarez and Altuve. We're going to have a wealth of starting pitching next year. Trade those chess pieces for something better. Trade Pressly and Montero if you can, get some new, young pieces to fill the hole at first and third. Keep Pena in the 8 or 9 hole.use the money you save on Bregman and Tucker to get some outfield talent. Sign Heyward to a 1 year low cost deal.
That's my opinion, which with that and $7, you can get a coffee at Starbucks
That's my opinion, which with that and $7, you can get a coffee at Starbucks
Can't wait for KUCHI's start v North Japan
tjack16 said:THE ASTROS ARE ADVANCING TO THE CANCUN ALCS
— FAX Sports: MLB (@MLBONFAX) October 14, 2024
Evan Gattis GS
Jose Altuve foot ejection
Abreu 4 singles
Houston will play North Japan in Game 1 tomorrow#ROAD2CANCUN pic.twitter.com/PxE87xQzaK
Wild game tonight. When they brought in Pressly I thought for sure we would blow the 9run lead. Only gave up the 3 runs
FINAL FOUR 👀 #ROAD2CANCUN pic.twitter.com/VGmvNrZTA1
— FAX Sports: MLB (@MLBONFAX) October 14, 2024
It's not like the Astros haven't had talent depart the team (all of which who declined) and traded away top talent for other talent to extend the window of opportunity though, right? It's only the hitting coaches.EastCoastAgNc said:The offensive decline is real and has been going on for the past few years. It's time for new blood. If we're only going to judge guys by whether they were on the team in 2017 and 2022, why not bring back JV, Keuchel, Mancini, Ken Giles, Gregerson, Springer, etc etc...Beat40 said:The Astros are not serious about winning a championship with coaches they've already won a championship with before.EastCoastAgNc said:He almost didn't come back this year. They talked him off the ledge from going to the Angels. I would imagine the feeling might be somewhat mutual. He was making more and more questionable decisions.Mathguy64 said:
Now do Cintron.
This seems strange. Gary Pettis wasn't the problem or reason why the team regressed.
And yes, if Cintron and Snitker are retained, this organization is not serious about contending for championships.
You are way too damn dramatic EastCoast.
Again, dramatic.
With the exception of 2020, the Astros have been top 10 in OPS. 2018, 2019, and 2021 were exceptional years being #1 or #2 in OPS. So yeah, a drop off has happened, but again, a decent portion is backfilling the departures with guys who weren't as good, which goes back to either not spending on a free agent or the talent you did have being gone for trades in 2018, 2019, or 2021. By the way, the guys traded haven't exactly panned out either, so probably would be in a pretty similar position today too.
I'm not saying I'm a fan of the approach this year, but the Astros were still a top 10 offense with Tucker out for a really long time, Bregman starting slow as hell for April AND May, and Abreu in the line-up through June. Not to mention the rotation of AAA players in Loperfido, Leon, Dezenzo, and Whitcomb playing a lot more than anyone envisioned. Chas having injuries. Hell, that alone might be making a damn good case FOR the hitting coaches.
Name one hitting coach you'd like to see as a replacement. I bet you can't
That's because overall hitting coaches don't matter that much. At this level players know how to hit and they know their swings better than anyone.
Hell SEA fired their hitting coach early on in the season and heir offense sucked ass all year.
That's because overall hitting coaches don't matter that much. At this level players know how to hit and they know their swings better than anyone.
Hell SEA fired their hitting coach early on in the season and heir offense sucked ass all year.
A hitting coach, in my opinion, is more there to help players recognize when little things get off on their swing and help with scouting opposing pitchers to prepare the hitters.Ag_07 said:
Name one hitting coach you'd like to see as a replacement. I bet you can't
That's because overall hitting coaches don't matter that much. At this level players know how to hit and they know their swings better than anyone.
Hell SEA fired their hitting coach early on in the season and heir offense sucked ass all year.
Blaming the hitter's approach this year on Cintron and Snitker is misplaced, in my opinion, because I believe it is an organizational direction/decision. Do they bear some burden? Sure, because they are part of the organization, but they had to go with prior management's approaches as well.
Bingo.Beat40 said:A hitting coach, in my opinion, is more there to help players recognize when little things get off on their swing and help with scouting opposing pitchers to prepare the hitters.Ag_07 said:
Name one hitting coach you'd like to see as a replacement. I bet you can't
That's because overall hitting coaches don't matter that much. At this level players know how to hit and they know their swings better than anyone.
Hell SEA fired their hitting coach early on in the season and heir offense sucked ass all year.
Blaming the hitter's approach this year on Cintron and Snitker is misplaced, in my opinion, because I believe it is an organizational direction/decision. Do they bear some burden? Sure, because they are part of the organization, but they had to go with prior management's approaches as well.
I would put the blame on roster construction and bad habits created from pressing early on in the season more than anything else.
As I said in the playoffs, when the only guys I can rely on to draw a walk are Jon Singleton and Chas McCormick, something is wrong.
That is why 1B is not where I would invest available dollars when I can platoon Big Jon/Caratini again and possibly bat that combo in the bottom 3rd of the order.
We need to spend on 3B, whether it be on Bregman or a replacement, and on OF upgrade. To me, I would like to acquire a true bat for LF, and then see what you have for CF between Chas, Meyers, and the farm.
We need to spend on 3B, whether it be on Bregman or a replacement, and on OF upgrade. To me, I would like to acquire a true bat for LF, and then see what you have for CF between Chas, Meyers, and the farm.
I remember listening to a game that Bagwell was calling later in the season (yeah, i know), and he wanted the batter to be more aggressive and not have taken the previous pitch early in the AB. I didn't see it, but it didn't sound like a mistake/hanger either.
I assumed the team's approach was more analytics-driven, but for a guy that averaged around 92 walks per season, I just found it interesting. I know pitchers are bringing more velocity and spin compared to when he played.
I assumed the team's approach was more analytics-driven, but for a guy that averaged around 92 walks per season, I just found it interesting. I know pitchers are bringing more velocity and spin compared to when he played.
I'm sure someone who knows how can pull up where the Astros rank in chase rate. Do the Astros chase balls at a higher clip that other teams? If so then that would be a problem.
I have no problem swinging early often if the pitchers are filling up the zone. Be aggressive in the zone and don't fall behind by watching strikes.
It's what you do with those pitches in the zone that matters. Which I see as a talent issue more than an approach issue. That's why it's hair pulling level of frustration to see Bregman constantly pop up a pitch that's right there in the zone or Pena getting a strike and hitting a tailor made double play ball.
I have no problem swinging early often if the pitchers are filling up the zone. Be aggressive in the zone and don't fall behind by watching strikes.
It's what you do with those pitches in the zone that matters. Which I see as a talent issue more than an approach issue. That's why it's hair pulling level of frustration to see Bregman constantly pop up a pitch that's right there in the zone or Pena getting a strike and hitting a tailor made double play ball.
My guess is that our aggressive approach was an organizational philosophy and not hitting coach driven. We still had the third fewest strikeouts in all of baseball, even with a chase rate that was second worst. We also didn't just swing at bad pitches. We were fifth in zone swing percentage and fourth in zone contact percentage. Overall, the offense was productive. The one area that needs to be improved is driving in runs, as we did a good job of getting guys on base.
Some other things to note. Jake Meyers was terrible with two strikes. Pena has a propensity to chase balls off the plate with two strikes. It makes sense to have those guys try to jump on pitches early in the count, as they haven't shown a great ability to hit behind in the count. We also have guys that have always been pretty aggressive hitters in Altuve, Chad, and Dubon. So it could be part organizational strategy and part just player approach. Who knows?
Some other things to note. Jake Meyers was terrible with two strikes. Pena has a propensity to chase balls off the plate with two strikes. It makes sense to have those guys try to jump on pitches early in the count, as they haven't shown a great ability to hit behind in the count. We also have guys that have always been pretty aggressive hitters in Altuve, Chad, and Dubon. So it could be part organizational strategy and part just player approach. Who knows?
I would argue that a hitting coach should also be working with players on pitch recognition. Have them teach Pena (and yes Altuve) to ignore a slider or sweeper low and away.Beat40 said:A hitting coach, in my opinion, is more there to help players recognize when little things get off on their swing and help with scouting opposing pitchers to prepare the hitters.Ag_07 said:
Name one hitting coach you'd like to see as a replacement. I bet you can't
That's because overall hitting coaches don't matter that much. At this level players know how to hit and they know their swings better than anyone.
Hell SEA fired their hitting coach early on in the season and heir offense sucked ass all year.
Blaming the hitter's approach this year on Cintron and Snitker is misplaced, in my opinion, because I believe it is an organizational direction/decision. Do they bear some burden? Sure, because they are part of the organization, but they had to go with prior management's approaches as well.
But yeah, the offensive strategy isnt their to devise.
No idea if the Mets have done this all season, but what they've done these first two vs LAD today is a thing of beauty. Absolutely working the pitching over.
I have also wondered if our free swinging was an intentional organizational switch. Now that teams don't care about SP going deep, they are having all pitchers throw max effort stuff. In those situations, sometimes pitches early in the count will be yhe best shot you get.
I noticed than even during games where I bewailed our tendency to hit into quick outs and keep opposing SP pitch counts low, managers would still pull them at the first sign of adversity from the 6th inning on. Piling on pitches doesn't matter if it doesn't effect the life expectancy of the SP.
I don't knoe I feel about this as it goes against my baseball extincts, that tell me forcing pitchera yo labor is always a good thing. But it is possible that analytics are trying to get ahead of the new pitching trends yet again.
I noticed than even during games where I bewailed our tendency to hit into quick outs and keep opposing SP pitch counts low, managers would still pull them at the first sign of adversity from the 6th inning on. Piling on pitches doesn't matter if it doesn't effect the life expectancy of the SP.
I don't knoe I feel about this as it goes against my baseball extincts, that tell me forcing pitchera yo labor is always a good thing. But it is possible that analytics are trying to get ahead of the new pitching trends yet again.
Thirty years later, and I still miss Rudy Jaramillo.
I don't have any stats to support this theory, but I'm sure some exist. Based on the eyeball test, I feel that overall "stuff" is at an all-time high for MLB pitchers. Velocity and movement are both up, as spin rate has become a point of emphasis. Any Joe Schmo can come out of the pen pumping high 90s with a lethal off speed pitch.
However, and again, I have no data to support this, I feel that control is at or near an all-time low, or at least a low for the modern era. That doesn't mean pitchers are throwing more balls. There are still plenty of strikes being thrown, but pitchers aren't pinpointing their pitches like they used to. Frankly, they don't have to, as most have the stuff to get away with a lot more mistakes in the zone than pitchers once could. My guess is that the average distance between desired location and actual location is as high as it's ever been.
Because of this change to the way guys are pitching, I'm actually on board with changing the approach to hitting. I don't think taking strikes to work the count is a good strategy. The stuff is just too good. I favor being aggressive in the zone early. Yes, this will lead to a higher chase rate and more efficient innings by the opposing pitcher, but as was mentioned, overall pitch count isn't as important as it used to be. We've seen guys fly through four innings, and then labor in the fifth and sixth and get pulled having thrown 80 pitches.
Obviously, situational hitting is still a thing, and guys have to be aware of when to dial back the aggressiveness, but overall, I don't think the aggressive approach was that big of a deal and may have actually helped with the lineups we were rolling out this season. The most useless result of an at bat is a strikeout, and we were still one of the best at avoiding those (you can make an argument here for the double play, but overall, it's the K).
Unless the Astros have data that suggests we should change, I expect the aggressive approach to return next season. From the fan's perspective, it's a lot like the shift. It doesn't elicit much response when it works, but the moment it doesn't, someone needs to be fired. First-pitch, three-run bomb? Awesome! First-pitch, inning-ending double play? He's gotta be more patient there!
However, and again, I have no data to support this, I feel that control is at or near an all-time low, or at least a low for the modern era. That doesn't mean pitchers are throwing more balls. There are still plenty of strikes being thrown, but pitchers aren't pinpointing their pitches like they used to. Frankly, they don't have to, as most have the stuff to get away with a lot more mistakes in the zone than pitchers once could. My guess is that the average distance between desired location and actual location is as high as it's ever been.
Because of this change to the way guys are pitching, I'm actually on board with changing the approach to hitting. I don't think taking strikes to work the count is a good strategy. The stuff is just too good. I favor being aggressive in the zone early. Yes, this will lead to a higher chase rate and more efficient innings by the opposing pitcher, but as was mentioned, overall pitch count isn't as important as it used to be. We've seen guys fly through four innings, and then labor in the fifth and sixth and get pulled having thrown 80 pitches.
Obviously, situational hitting is still a thing, and guys have to be aware of when to dial back the aggressiveness, but overall, I don't think the aggressive approach was that big of a deal and may have actually helped with the lineups we were rolling out this season. The most useless result of an at bat is a strikeout, and we were still one of the best at avoiding those (you can make an argument here for the double play, but overall, it's the K).
Unless the Astros have data that suggests we should change, I expect the aggressive approach to return next season. From the fan's perspective, it's a lot like the shift. It doesn't elicit much response when it works, but the moment it doesn't, someone needs to be fired. First-pitch, three-run bomb? Awesome! First-pitch, inning-ending double play? He's gotta be more patient there!
I have no problem with being aggressive early in a count but.::
You better be very selective. We have our share of guys who are very free swingers.
Altuve, got bless his little superstar heart, never met a pitch he wouldn't swing at. He's insanely successful doing it but nobody likes watching him flail at pitches 2 foot out of the zone.
Jeremy Pena had yet to figure out what a slider/sweeper looks like. And unlike Jose, he can't hit it. He needs to be conditioned to what the strike zone is.
Yainer is a crazy free swinger. He's also way better if a hitter than Pena. I'm a little more forgiving of him.
Jake and Chas are K machines.
Just be more selective.
And learn to take pitch every now and then. We had a ton of 5-8 pitch innings. That kills our own pitcher who has to come right back out. If the two guys in front of you have gone 3 pitches and 2 outs, they screwed you.
You better be very selective. We have our share of guys who are very free swingers.
Altuve, got bless his little superstar heart, never met a pitch he wouldn't swing at. He's insanely successful doing it but nobody likes watching him flail at pitches 2 foot out of the zone.
Jeremy Pena had yet to figure out what a slider/sweeper looks like. And unlike Jose, he can't hit it. He needs to be conditioned to what the strike zone is.
Yainer is a crazy free swinger. He's also way better if a hitter than Pena. I'm a little more forgiving of him.
Jake and Chas are K machines.
Just be more selective.
And learn to take pitch every now and then. We had a ton of 5-8 pitch innings. That kills our own pitcher who has to come right back out. If the two guys in front of you have gone 3 pitches and 2 outs, they screwed you.
I will say that Jake has seem to me the most frequent victim of bad strike calls by the blue.
I don't know why, but he seems to be marked.
I don't know why, but he seems to be marked.
"only one thing is important!"
Kwon is one of my favorite non-Astro non-super star players. A true leadoff guy.
Related: because they are playing right now
Related: because they are playing right now
I feel like Peña should be the easiest guy to be a hitting coach for. Only swing if it's middle in until you have 2 strikes then try to hit the ball the other way with 2 strikes because you know it's junk outside. Will he be an All Star with that approach? No but that isn't happening no matter what, we just want him to be functionally useful, maybe squeeze out an OPS approaching .800 every once in awhile.
MaxPower said:
I feel like Peña should be the easiest guy to be a hitting coach for. Only swing if it's middle in until you have 2 strikes then try to hit the ball the other way with 2 strikes because you know it's junk outside. Will he be an All Star with that approach? No but that isn't happening no matter what, we just want him to be functionally useful, maybe squeeze out an OPS approaching .800 every once in awhile.
Top 5 in the league in errors doesn't give me a warm fuzzy, either.
another small concern with Pena...
somewhere around 20% of his hits were infield singles
I believe he had over 30 in 2024
better not lose a step or add too many pounds in the offseason
somewhere around 20% of his hits were infield singles
I believe he had over 30 in 2024
better not lose a step or add too many pounds in the offseason
If the plan is to keep Pena, then I hope the plan is to have him as our 8 or 9 hole hitter.
So we've convinced ourselves that an offense that drew 240 fewer walks than the league leader and saw fewer pitches per at bat that any team in the last 20 years was not an issue?
I'm disappointed in the lot of you.
Fire Cintron!!!!
I'm disappointed in the lot of you.
Fire Cintron!!!!
Marvin said:
So we've convinced ourselves that an offense that drew 240 fewer walks than the league leader and saw fewer pitches per at bat that any team in the last 20 years was not an issue?
I'm disappointed in the lot of you.
Fire Cintron!!!!
He needs to go yesterday. Was this talented of a lineup that we had this year, the offensive production was unacceptable and embarrassing
No...It's an issue.
It's just a lack of talent and roster construction issue rather than a hitting coach issue.
And why does everyone bltch and moan about Cintron but Snitker gets a pass?
It's just a lack of talent and roster construction issue rather than a hitting coach issue.
And why does everyone bltch and moan about Cintron but Snitker gets a pass?
I blame the yogi bear special on Netflix.
The team watched it and saw that yogi could hit anything and had the low ratio of strike outs to walls and they all decided to follow his footsteps.
Hence the change this year.
~egon
The team watched it and saw that yogi could hit anything and had the low ratio of strike outs to walls and they all decided to follow his footsteps.
Hence the change this year.
~egon
I understand the aggressive approach -- and all here have made good points.
But I think they need to tailor it better. We have had a big issue with RISP. The Astros should keep the aggressive approach when 0-1 runners are on. With RISP, batters need to be more selective and work counts.
But I think they need to tailor it better. We have had a big issue with RISP. The Astros should keep the aggressive approach when 0-1 runners are on. With RISP, batters need to be more selective and work counts.
Ag_07 said:
No...It's an issue.
It's just a lack of talent and roster construction issue rather than a hitting coach issue.
And why does everyone bltch and moan about Cintron but Snitker gets a pass?
I mean, I can post twice as many *****ing and moaning comments if that's what you really want... or we can just agree that "Cintron" is inclusive of all suckage related to the hitting approach.
I seem to recall the offense getting hosed early and often by inept(?) umpires making bad calls which probably contributed as well. Not that it wasn't happening to other teams, but coupling that with the awful first month probably had an effect on the approach.
Ag_07 said:
No...It's an issue.
It's just a lack of talent and roster construction issue rather than a hitting coach issue.
And why does everyone bltch and moan about Cintron but Snitker gets a pass?
I'm down to get rid of both, and whomever in the analytics org stands for the present approach.
Fair enough
Just curious to why the hate for one but not the other.
Just curious to why the hate for one but not the other.
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