If it's not the Fellowships of Mid (as 97.5 calls them) then it's just Crane, which is probably worse because he's not going to fire himself. There's no way Click or Luhnow was paying Montero, Abreu or Hader what they got. Those were decisions clearly coming from the top. I know you've said we were getting Abreu with or without Click, but that basically just confirms it was Crane who was going to tell whoever his GM was what to do.texasaggie2015 said:
Yeah, I've pretty much given up trying to debunk that narrative
***** 2024 Houston Astros Season Thread ***** [Staff Warning]
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Thank you sir. Brother picked it up this morning, which is good because this team might drive me to drinkingaggiedata said:
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https://texags.com/forums/67/topics/3459099
Yhe rebuild will be thrust upon him in 2036 whether he likes it or not. The Angels have refused to rebuild for 5 years when in reality they've just been unwittingly and unsuccessfully rebuilding for 5 years.EastCoastAgNc said:While I know there's plenty of debate over the influence of the trifling trio, even setting them aside, Crane is the main issue. When he took over, he let Lunhow be the guy and run his vision. Given his lack of trust after being burned by JL, I can't see him staying out of the way enough to let a rebuild happen.Ag_07 said:EastCoastAgNc said:Even if we managed to get a Lunhow-type in control now, Crane's ego and the council of former players would just would get in the way and hinder the vision.Ag_07 said:
Jeff Luhnow will never work for this organization as long as Crane is here.
At least that's what I've gathered.
If Crane has trust problems why would he trust the guy who actually broke his trust?
Best to just appreciate what JL did and let him go.
Well...I don't agree with this.
2036? Typo?MaxPower said:Yhe rebuild will be thrust upon him in 2036 whether he likes it or not. The Angels have refused to rebuild for 5 years when in reality they've just been unwittingly and unsuccessfully rebuilding for 5 years.EastCoastAgNc said:While I know there's plenty of debate over the influence of the trifling trio, even setting them aside, Crane is the main issue. When he took over, he let Lunhow be the guy and run his vision. Given his lack of trust after being burned by JL, I can't see him staying out of the way enough to let a rebuild happen.Ag_07 said:EastCoastAgNc said:Even if we managed to get a Lunhow-type in control now, Crane's ego and the council of former players would just would get in the way and hinder the vision.Ag_07 said:
Jeff Luhnow will never work for this organization as long as Crane is here.
At least that's what I've gathered.
If Crane has trust problems why would he trust the guy who actually broke his trust?
Best to just appreciate what JL did and let him go.
Well...I don't agree with this.
Abreu (and possibly Montero) were happening regardless of whether Click or Brown were GM. The groundwork was already in place and they were high priorities. Abreu more so than Montero- but both were on the agenda.MaxPower said:If it's not the Fellowships of Mid (as 97.5 calls them) then it's just Crane, which is probably worse because he's not going to fire himself. There's no way Click or Luhnow was paying Montero, Abreu or Hader what they got. Those were decisions clearly coming from the top. I know you've said we were getting Abreu with or without Click, but that basically just confirms it was Crane who was going to tell whoever his GM was what to do.texasaggie2015 said:
Yeah, I've pretty much given up trying to debunk that narrative
Do you think the salary would have been as significant for Montero had there been a GM around? It was one thing to re-sign him, but to a deal that significant was just criminal mismanagement.texasaggie2015 said:Abreu (and possibly Montero) were happening regardless of whether Click or Brown were GM. The groundwork was already in place and they were high priorities. Abreu more so than Montero- but both were on the agenda.MaxPower said:If it's not the Fellowships of Mid (as 97.5 calls them) then it's just Crane, which is probably worse because he's not going to fire himself. There's no way Click or Luhnow was paying Montero, Abreu or Hader what they got. Those were decisions clearly coming from the top. I know you've said we were getting Abreu with or without Click, but that basically just confirms it was Crane who was going to tell whoever his GM was what to do.texasaggie2015 said:
Yeah, I've pretty much given up trying to debunk that narrative
I just did the math on how old I'll be in 2036. Hard pass.Wabs said:2036? Typo?MaxPower said:Yhe rebuild will be thrust upon him in 2036 whether he likes it or not. The Angels have refused to rebuild for 5 years when in reality they've just been unwittingly and unsuccessfully rebuilding for 5 years.EastCoastAgNc said:While I know there's plenty of debate over the influence of the trifling trio, even setting them aside, Crane is the main issue. When he took over, he let Lunhow be the guy and run his vision. Given his lack of trust after being burned by JL, I can't see him staying out of the way enough to let a rebuild happen.Ag_07 said:EastCoastAgNc said:Even if we managed to get a Lunhow-type in control now, Crane's ego and the council of former players would just would get in the way and hinder the vision.Ag_07 said:
Jeff Luhnow will never work for this organization as long as Crane is here.
At least that's what I've gathered.
If Crane has trust problems why would he trust the guy who actually broke his trust?
Best to just appreciate what JL did and let him go.
Well...I don't agree with this.
Life is better with a beagle
I'm not sure actually. I know they were determined to get Abreu done and were willing to open up the checkbook for him. I don't know as much about the Montero details other than they wanted him badly.
While yes Crane and his hands on approach have lessened the analytics approach but remember that at the time of JL the org was at the forefront of analytics and were so far above and beyond everyone that it was a clear advantage.
Nowadays a lot of teams have caught on and the gap has closed. The use of analytics is more the norm now.
Not saying that's a reason to ditch the approach but just an observation that the analytics we do use is not as big of an advantage as it was back in the JL days.
Nowadays a lot of teams have caught on and the gap has closed. The use of analytics is more the norm now.
Not saying that's a reason to ditch the approach but just an observation that the analytics we do use is not as big of an advantage as it was back in the JL days.
Alex Bregman getting a little extra work in the batted cage ahead of the Yankees series. pic.twitter.com/S6ds069rKH
— Cheap Seats Boxing (@Cheapseatsbox) May 6, 2024
Overheard dialogue in Crane's office circa late 2022.
Crane: Baggy, who do you like?
Bagwell: I like Abreu, he's got a classy swing, it's a real clean stroke
Reggie: He can't hit a curveball.
Bagwell: Yeah, there's some work to be done. I'll admit that.
Reggie: He's 37 years old! At least!
Bagwell: But he's noticeable.
Reggie: And an ugly girlfriend.
Crane: What does that mean?
Reggie: Ugly girlfriend means no confidence
Crane; OK, how about 3 years, $58.5 million?
Bagwell: I'll get your checkbook!
Crane: Baggy, who do you like?
Bagwell: I like Abreu, he's got a classy swing, it's a real clean stroke
Reggie: He can't hit a curveball.
Bagwell: Yeah, there's some work to be done. I'll admit that.
Reggie: He's 37 years old! At least!
Bagwell: But he's noticeable.
Reggie: And an ugly girlfriend.
Crane: What does that mean?
Reggie: Ugly girlfriend means no confidence
Crane; OK, how about 3 years, $58.5 million?
Bagwell: I'll get your checkbook!
Life is better with a beagle
A good LOL today. You could do a whole Astros game thread of Major League gifs these days.CFTXAG10 said:Alex Bregman getting a little extra work in the batted cage ahead of the Yankees series. pic.twitter.com/S6ds069rKH
— Cheap Seats Boxing (@Cheapseatsbox) May 6, 2024
Life is better with a beagle
I gotta believe this team can turn it around some how, I just hope it's before LuAce and Urquidy come back. No doubt they will help the pitching and BP
100% accurate straight from the horse's mouth.Quote:
Luhnow's analytics were instrumental in smart free agent moves. I have no doubt we wouldn't have signed Abreu, Hader or Montero if he were here.
Now maybe he gets overruled, but I don't think that happens if he was still GM.
Again, I can say with 100% certainty that Jose Abreu would have been in an Astros uniform no matter who was the GM. I know y'all find that hard to believe, and that's fine. But I know that for a fact.
Edit: Misread and thought you meant Click. I can't speak for the Luhnow regime as we're so far removed.
Edit: Misread and thought you meant Click. I can't speak for the Luhnow regime as we're so far removed.
Regardless, that bodes really poorly for the future. If someone as mired in the past as me when it comes to analytical analysis can see how bad a decision Abreu was at the time, I don't have a lot of hope for sound decisions going forward.texasaggie2015 said:
Again, I can say with 100% certainty that Jose Abreu would have been in an Astros uniform no matter who was the GM. I know y'all find that hard to believe, and that's fine. But I know that for a fact.
Edit: Misread and thought you meant Click. I can't speak for the Luhnow regime as we're so far removed.
Life is better with a beagle
If anyone wants something to do this morning, the Asheville Tourists are playing a morning game:
Gameday: Tourists at Dash, Probable Pitchers, Lineups, and more (milb.com)
Players to watch: Luis Baez and Cam Fisher- both of whom I expect to see in Corpus sometime later this summer.
Gameday: Tourists at Dash, Probable Pitchers, Lineups, and more (milb.com)
Players to watch: Luis Baez and Cam Fisher- both of whom I expect to see in Corpus sometime later this summer.
texasaggie2015 said:
Again, I can say with 100% certainty that Jose Abreu would have been in an Astros uniform no matter who was the GM. I know y'all find that hard to believe, and that's fine. But I know that for a fact.
Edit: Misread and thought you meant Click. I can't speak for the Luhnow regime as we're so far removed.
First, I really appreciate all of the info and don't doubt you at all. However, can you give some clarification…and if you've already done so, I apologize for missing it.
Are you saying Click wanted Abreu, or are you saying Crane wanted Abreu and it wouldn't have mattered what Click said, we were still getting him? Because if it's all Crane, the organization is doomed if he's making free agent decisions regardless what the smart people are saying.
Click had Abreu #1 on his board going into the offseason. They had their eyes on him long before free agency began. They weren't the only team.
They were aware of his HR totals being down, but he's such a natural hitter that they thought they could still get .275 and 30+ doubles out of him.. which would be huge in this lineup. Remember- this is a former MVP. He was a very good player.
To your point, I will say that the JV trade and Hader signing were 100% Crane. The only role Dana Brown played in the JV trade was that he advised Crane on which prospects to include.
They were aware of his HR totals being down, but he's such a natural hitter that they thought they could still get .275 and 30+ doubles out of him.. which would be huge in this lineup. Remember- this is a former MVP. He was a very good player.
To your point, I will say that the JV trade and Hader signing were 100% Crane. The only role Dana Brown played in the JV trade was that he advised Crane on which prospects to include.
texasaggie2015 said:
Click had Abreu #1 on his board going into the offseason. They had their eyes on him long before free agency began. They weren't the only team.
They were aware of his HR totals being down, but he's such a natural hitter that they thought they could still get .275 and 30+ doubles out of him.. which would be huge in this lineup. Remember- this is a former MVP. He was a very good player.
To your point, I will say that the JV trade and Hader signing were 100% Crane. The only role Dana Brown played in the JV trade was that he advised Crane on which prospects to include.
Thank you for the clarification. I'm just worried that Crane is not letting his GM do all the GM things. Hopefully he is learning from the Hader deal at a minimum and will let the smart people he hired do their part.
I don't think anyone is disputing you. We are saying IF Crane was letting the GM be a GM these stupid decisions almost certainly don't get made, regardless of who the GM is.texasaggie2015 said:
Again, I can say with 100% certainty that Jose Abreu would have been in an Astros uniform no matter who was the GM. I know y'all find that hard to believe, and that's fine. But I know that for a fact.
Edit: Misread and thought you meant Click. I can't speak for the Luhnow regime as we're so far removed.
I think what's he's saying is the smart people would've done those signings too.
Also...It's been a rough start but it's way too early to call the Hader deal a mistake.
Sometimes moves just don't work out.
Also...It's been a rough start but it's way too early to call the Hader deal a mistake.
Sometimes moves just don't work out.
This is a legitimate concern that's been mentioned to me for a couple years now.superaggie73 said:texasaggie2015 said:
Click had Abreu #1 on his board going into the offseason. They had their eyes on him long before free agency began. They weren't the only team.
They were aware of his HR totals being down, but he's such a natural hitter that they thought they could still get .275 and 30+ doubles out of him.. which would be huge in this lineup. Remember- this is a former MVP. He was a very good player.
To your point, I will say that the JV trade and Hader signing were 100% Crane. The only role Dana Brown played in the JV trade was that he advised Crane on which prospects to include.
Thank you for the clarification. I'm just worried that Crane is not letting his GM do all the GM things. Hopefully he is learning from the Hader deal at a minimum and will let the smart people he hired do their part.
Abreu might have been #1 on Click's board
but that doesn't mean he would have signed him at all costs
like 3 years $60 MM
Click might have walked away for anything beyond 2 years
but that doesn't mean he would have signed him at all costs
like 3 years $60 MM
Click might have walked away for anything beyond 2 years
How many smart guys are left? Seems many have been run off.superaggie73 said:
Hopefully he is learning from the Hader deal at a minimum and will let the smart people he hired do their part.
Ug. Andrew Taylor had to leave after 1/3rd of an inningtexasaggie2015 said:
If anyone wants something to do this morning, the Asheville Tourists are playing a morning game:
Gameday: Tourists at Dash, Probable Pitchers, Lineups, and more (milb.com)
Players to watch: Luis Baez and Cam Fisher- both of whom I expect to see in Corpus sometime later this summer.
As far as I've been told, they knew going in that it would take 3 years minimum.
Just 15 and jetblack.MaxPower said:How many smart guys are left? Seems many have been run off.superaggie73 said:
Hopefully he is learning from the Hader deal at a minimum and will let the smart people he hired do their part.
Life is better with a beagle
Crane is such a bad owner we have 7 ALCS appearances, 4 AL pennants, and 2 WS rings in the last seven years.
Here's a fun exercise. Go back and look at past free agents who got multi-year deals and see who you think was a "good" deal.
https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-2022-23-free-agents-by-position
For 2022-2023, looks like Eovaldi was the best deal and JV might be second. Nimmo might be the best position player deal or Contreras if he keeps hitting like he is this year.
https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-2022-23-free-agents-by-position
For 2022-2023, looks like Eovaldi was the best deal and JV might be second. Nimmo might be the best position player deal or Contreras if he keeps hitting like he is this year.
That Jones baw up in Dallas has 3 rings. Maybe we need him running the Texans…..Project Gemini said:
Crane is such a bad owner we have 7 ALCS appearances, 4 AL pennants, and 2 WS rings in the last seven years.
Yeah, nearly 30 years ago, lets not even pretend that's a legitimate comparison. And for awhile, Jones running the Texans instead of BoB would have been a perfectly fine trade off for most people
he has been a very good owner. But he might (emphasis) be falling into the trap that a lot of owners find themselves in when they have a successful franchise, and start thinking the success is because of them and not their experts.Project Gemini said:
Crane is such a bad owner we have 7 ALCS appearances, 4 AL pennants, and 2 WS rings in the last seven years.
Concerning news for a depleted Astros rotation: J.P. France has a shoulder injury that could keep him out “a while,” source tells @TheAthletic. As it begins a stretch of 29 games in 30 days, Houston has five healthy ML starters on its 40-man roster - https://t.co/oqyRRTIdyX
— Chandler Rome (@Chandler_Rome) May 7, 2024
May explain some of his issues
texasaggie2015 said:
Yep. But Crane doesn't trust the people who crunch those numbers all day near as much as he did Lunhow and his people.
All of those people who built the dynasty are no longer with the team. They still use analytics- but people use them and interpret them differently if that makes sense. And I don't think they're nearly as advanced as they were at one point.
Lunhow and his people were incredibly smart and ahead of their time. I don't think we'll ever have another GM that comes close. Lunhow was all about data and analytics. Dana Brown's strong suit is scouting and development.
Thanks for the insight. I am hopeful that Dana can continue his track record of quality talent evaluation. And someone mentioned the success we've had with international signings with Oz Ocampo and others. Another relevant data point for the eye test. But I can't help but marvel at what Sig has accomplished in Baltimore using the Luhnow approach. Analytics have made the orioles look like 2017 circa Astros.
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