I have changed my mind on several players. The more you know the better you can evaluate.
As it should be. Relief pitchers are, objectively, less valuable than starters or position players. The vast majority are in the bullpen because they aren't good enough to start. Billy Wagner's career WAR, for example, is lower than that of Doug Drabek.JDUB08AG said:
If Wagner doesn't qualify for the HOF, on the surface it seems like the ability to enter as a lifetime closer is significantly more difficult and stringent than a position player or pitcher.
I don't change my mind as often as I react to changing standards. I wasn't sold on Larry Walker as a Hall of Famer, but when Vlad Guerrero was elected I couldn't justify keeping Walker out.Farmer1906 said:
I have changed my mind on several players. The more you know the better you can evaluate.
If you were going to have a shorter eligibility period you would need to change the election rules to allow unlimited votes (or at least a higher number of votes). Wagner's low vote totals in the 2010s likely had as much to do with there consistently being 10 players on the ballot who were better than him as with a re-evaluation of his career.AgRyan04 said:
But there isn't more data coming out - the career is over....it's just you are coming across it later.
A voter should be able to sift through all that within 5 years.
YokelRidesAgain said:If you were going to have a shorter eligibility period you would need to change the election rules to allow unlimited votes (or at least a higher number of votes). Wagner's low vote totals in the 2010s likely had as much to do with there consistently being 10 players on the ballot who were better than him as with a re-evaluation of his career.AgRyan04 said:
But there isn't more data coming out - the career is over....it's just you are coming across it later.
A voter should be able to sift through all that within 5 years.
I don't lump closers in with relief pitchers. You can make the same argument that mid inning relief pitchers are there because they aren't good enough to be closers. I don't think it should be easier for closers to get into the HOF and I don't disagree that they should have a little more scrutiny, but to devalue to role a closer plays is unfair (in my opinion). It requires a mental capability that a lot of players do not posses and to do it at a consistently high level over the course of an entire career, that is absolutely worth strong consideration for HOF entry.YokelRidesAgain said:As it should be. Relief pitchers are, objectively, less valuable than starters or position players. The vast majority are in the bullpen because they aren't good enough to start. Billy Wagner's career WAR, for example, is lower than that of Doug Drabek.JDUB08AG said:
If Wagner doesn't qualify for the HOF, on the surface it seems like the ability to enter as a lifetime closer is significantly more difficult and stringent than a position player or pitcher.
Personally, of 'pure' relievers I would only have enshrined Mariano Rivera and Goose Gossage, and also sometime starter Hoyt Wilhelm and converted starter Dennis Eckersley. No Hoffman, Wagner, Lee Smith, Rollie Fingers, and definitely no Bruce Sutter (Bruce Sutter was elected by the writers because a bunch of them thought he invented the split finger fastball, which he didn't).
The writers are going to draw the line slightly lower, under Billy Wagner. Wagner will get in next year.
The Porkchop Express said:
I'd like to see it changed to a 2-strike system.
You're on the ballot 5 years after you retire. If you don't get in, but you got at least 50% of the vote, you're on more time in 5 year, and then you're done to the Vets' Committee. I'd also raise the rate to get in to 80% - at least get a B average to get the HOF. 75% is too low.
The whole idea of a "closer" is fading away, because it is poor strategy. The best relievers are increasingly being used in the highest leverage situations, rather than in the 9th inning with a three run lead.JDUB08AG said:
I don't lump closers in with relief pitchers. You can make the same argument that mid inning relief pitchers are there because they aren't good enough to be closers. I don't think it should be easier for closers to get into the HOF and I don't disagree that they should have a little more scrutiny, but to devalue to role a closer plays is unfair (in my opinion). It requires a mental capability that a lot of players do not posses and to do it at a consistently high level over the course of an entire career, that is absolutely worth strong consideration for HOF entry.
I would make it lower, actually. Except for people who were blackballed for steroids (Bonds, Clemens) or for being a meathead (Curt Schilling), everyone who has cleared even 50% on a writers ballot has eventually gotten into the Hall one way or another. (Jack Morris and Gil Hodges were the last two exceptions, and both were elected by Veterans Committees.)The Porkchop Express said:
You're on the ballot 5 years after you retire. If you don't get in, but you got at least 50% of the vote, you're on more time in 5 year, and then you're done to the Vets' Committee. I'd also raise the rate to get in to 80% - at least get a B average to get the HOF. 75% is too low.
I'd force the media members with enough tenure to qualify to hold elections that picked 10 of their members to serve a 10-year term as voters. And you can't have a person one person serve more than once consecutively.Jackal99 said:The Porkchop Express said:
I'd like to see it changed to a 2-strike system.
You're on the ballot 5 years after you retire. If you don't get in, but you got at least 50% of the vote, you're on more time in 5 year, and then you're done to the Vets' Committee. I'd also raise the rate to get in to 80% - at least get a B average to get the HOF. 75% is too low.
Okay. But do you also do anything to increase accountability and decrease general ****ery amongst the voters? Set some guidelines for them to follow? Because if not, nothing will change and fewer will get in. Maybe that's your goal, and okay. But only one player yesterday got over 80%, and that doesn't inspire confidence for many getting in.
The other major professional HOFs in North American pro sports (football, basketball, hockey) elect more marginal or unqualified Hall of Famers than the baseball version, not less. As do the various iterations of the baseball Veterans Committee.Jackal99 said:
Sounds a lot like the NFL HOF process. I always love listening to that blowhard John McClain talk about why he's campaigning for whatever former Titan/Oiler he's currently campaigning for.
Correct. The worst HOF selections, by far, have come from the Veterans Committee. Particularly the notorious Frankie Frisch era.Mathguy64 said:
The problem with that system is you will get votes being traded.
I hate pointing to awards because they're so subjective, but Felix has the edge with a Cy and ASs. You're right. They are close.Mathguy64 said:
If you think Felix belongs you need to look at Roy O. He's got nearly identical numbers across the board in 1 less year. I mean you can throw a hat over the two of them they are so close.
Farmer1906 said:
I think both CC and King Felix are borderline. Voters may need to re-evaluate how we handle pitchers moving forward. If we keep the old standards then we'll stop adding starters.
Take CC for example
-3.74 ERA (only Jack Morris & Red Ruffing have a higher ERA)
-251 Wins (outside the top 30 of SP in HOF)
-Only 1 Cy (some multi Cy guys not in the HOF)
-Never led the league in ERA, WHIP, ERA+, SO/9, SO.
-Only 2 seasons of sub 3 ERA
Here is King Felix
-Only 15 seasons / ~2700 IP
-Didnt even sniff 200 wins (169)
-Only 1 Cy (same as above)
-Sub 50 WAR
-Doesn't meet any of the HOF Statistics on Baseball Ref
A lot of these notes scream no, but if they're not a yes then we might not have any yeses in a long time outside of Kershaw, Verlander, Scherzer, & Greinke.
We have reached the threshhold of guys I thought were still playing suddenly eligible for the HOAgRyan04 said:
Here are the guys who will be on the ballot for the first time next year. Who needs more time than from right now until next January to make a decison?
'
Mr.Bond said:
CC never wears pinstripes and he'd never have a chance
Just another reason why the voting is bull****
Quote:
Billy Wagner (9th, 73.8%, up 5.7%)
I was braced for this disappointment, noting at the outset of this cycle that only 14 of the 30 candidates who received between 65% and 70% and still had eligibility remaining were elected the next year. Wagner seems to have been braced for it as well, forgoing the usual sit-by-the-phone routine advised by the Hall for candidates who could get the call they've been waiting for. "It's not like I can say that I'm definitely going to be in so I can have friends over [Tuesday] for the announcement and celebrate," he told the New York Post. "I can't do any of that. I will look like a big jackass if I have people over and I don't get a call." Instead Wagner spent the afternoon coaching high school varsity baseball.
Still, I ache for him and any candidate who misses by such a narrow margin, and I'm disgusted by one voter ostentatiously dropping Wagner after supporting him in 2023, and then even more ostentatiously writing a column about the blowback (which was about more than just how he handled Wagner). If there's a silver lining, it's that Wagner was dropped by only three public voters, and that he tied Helton for the second-highest rate of support (92.3%) from among the 13 first-time voters. Whether he closes the gap next year or has to wait for an Era Committee, he's too close not to be elected someday soon, and I expect a year from now we'll be celebrating his great comeback story.
I'm in that mind frame. unless a closer is transcendent across the regular and postseason and destroys record books, or wins a Cy Young, I don't think he should be in. I don't really think Hoffman should be in either. Lots of stats, not good in the post-season.TarponChaser said:
Even being an Astros homer I strongly feel that if you don't believe Wagner deserves the HoF then no closers/relief pitchers should be in the HoF.
Frankly, I think being a closer might be the toughest job in professional sports. The margin of error is razor thin. If a starter gives up a couple runs in the first few innings it's no big deal but if a closer does it then you lose the game. They don't have room for mistakes and the mental focus and toughness required is at another level.