Farmer1906 said:

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W said:

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the problem with Beltre's candidacy...

there were numerous times during his career...I forgot he was still in the league

had a very non-spectacular career

(and yes, got a free pass for the 2004 HR outburst)

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Very strange

2001 - slightly below avg hitter
2002 - slightly below avg hitter
2003 - below avg hitter
2004 - MVP level hitter
2005 - slightly below avg hitter

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Something was juiced in 2004, whether it was balls or players or both.

2002 - 5059 HR, .748 OPS
2003 - 5207 HR, .755 OPS
2004 - 5451 HR, .763 OPS
2005 - 5017 HR, .749 OPS

jkag89 said:

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Quote:

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Phil Rizzuto.

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He was the shortstop and one of the most popular players of the greatest dynasty of the Game's history. His offensive production was likely far better than most shortstops of his era and losing three full season to WWII is an easy way to dismiss his less than stellar counting numbers. It certainly didn't hurt that he was a very popular announcer and media personality for 40+ seasons.

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Well let me know when the Hall of Popular opens up, but he definitely didn't deserve it on his playing days alone.

Unless he was going to hit .650 in the 3 seasons he was in the war, no way those numbers were going to bulk up his stats that much.

Harold Baines doesn't deserve to be in mostly cuz of all the DH stuff, but that guy could rake. He was Uncle MIke with a longer career and the '94 strike and '95 shortened season season probably cost him getting to 3,000 hits. He finished at 2,866 with the game losing 51 games in 94 and 18 in the 95 season. That's 70 games in what was sitll very much the prime of his career. Probably would have hung around to get 3,000 if he another 100 hits from that time frame.

He also hit .324 across 31 playoff games and kept putting up really good numbers in his late 30s. You could make a comparison to guys like Biggio and Dave WInfield for players who just kept producing into the twighlight of their careers and got to the HOF as a result of it.

Mauer in.

Helton in.

Wags did not make it.

Sounds like Helton was the last. Shameful.

BS

5 votes short. ****ing bull*****

Double damn. Almost rather it be tons of votes rather than just 5.

He will cruise in next year as the #2 vote getter. Only ichiro is coming on the ballot as a dead lock cinch

Fuzzy Dunlop said:

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I'm not advocating for Wagner one way or another but I never really saw him as a HOFer. But, if you voted for him last year, how do you not vote for him this year? He didn't regress from 2023 to 2024. Completely asinine.

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That's where I am too. But I feel that way about a lot a lot of guys.

Just ridiculous. Those who played against him thought he was one of the most dominant pitchers they've ever faced.

A complete screw job.

While we are at it, Sheffield got hosed too, imo.

aTm2004 said:

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Who voted how needs to be made public. This is just abuse of their privilege.

Three writers voted for Billy Wagner in 2023 but not in 2024. Two "writers" sent in ballots with only Manny and ARod on them.

The pitcher with the most ever strikeouts by a left-handed reliever and fourth most all-time missed the Hall of Fame by 5 votes in his 9th try. Brutal.

— CJ (@CJNitkowski) January 23, 2024

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The two writers mentioned as voting for only A-Rod and MannyBManny (Bill Ballou and Tony Massarotti) made their ballots public.

Both are richly deserving of ridicule, but at least they made their thoughts known publicly.

The people who can't be bothered to reveal their votes at all are the real problem.

Billy could have easily pitched another 2-3 years too. Dude was dominant his last season

The Porkchop Express said:

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Fuzzy Dunlop said:

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I'm not advocating for Wagner one way or another but I never really saw him as a HOFer. But, if you voted for him last year, how do you not vote for him this year? He didn't regress from 2023 to 2024. Completely asinine.

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That's where I am too. But I feel that way about a lot a lot of guys.

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Same here. I'm all for the HOF being exclusive to the best of the best. Farmer and others make good points about Wagner. My problem with Wagner is the usage. Yes, he had a great BAA and strikeouts. He was a force in the 9th inning. I have a problem with Lee Smith, Harold Baines, and others mentioned in this thread.

Mauer is another one that I'm not convinced about but that's just me.

Edit to add: I don't think Helton belongs either.

As for Mazeroski, I never saw him play but his defense is what got him in the HOF. 8 time GG at 2nd base.

It's hard to believe that any of us would be so altruistic and perfect in our voting habits year to year. If you had someone on your ballot and then read a compelling article or saw something that convinced you they didn't deserve to make the HoF, would you continue to vote for them even if your opinion changed?

A buddy of mine has a vote and agrees that a lot of people who reveal their ballots are just gaslighting for clicks and discussion. But that doesn't mean they all need to get trashed.

Here's Heyman in the NYP this morning talking about his ballot and not voting for Wagner. You might not agree with it, but he makes a compelling case, particularly asking if you think Wagner is in the top 1.18% of all players of all time.

https://nypost.com/2024/01/23/sports/glad-my-vote-didnt-keep-billy-wagner-out-of-hall-of-fame/

The Porkchop Express said:

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It's hard to believe that any of us would be so altruistic and perfect in our voting habits year to year. If you had someone on your ballot and then read a compelling article or saw something that convinced you they didn't deserve to make the HoF, would you continue to vote for them even if your opinion changed?

A buddy of mine has a vote and agrees that a lot of people who reveal their ballots are just gaslighting for clicks and discussion. But that doesn't mean they all need to get trashed.

Here's Heyman in the NYP this morning talking about his ballot and not voting for Wagner. You might not agree with it, but he makes a compelling case, particularly asking if you think Wagner is in the top 1.18% of all players of all time.

https://nypost.com/2024/01/23/sports/glad-my-vote-didnt-keep-billy-wagner-out-of-hall-of-fame/

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My issue with this part is..... there are a TON of guys in who I wouldnt put in top 1.18% Billys #s are HOF worthy, period. My whole life I never understood why a guy isnt worthy year 1,2,3,4 etc but all the sudden 10 years later hes a HOF'er? The process is just bull****

If Wagner doesn't qualify for the HOF, on the surface it seems like the ability to enter as a lifetime closer is significantly more difficult and stringent than a position player or pitcher.

The Porkchop Express said:

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It's hard to believe that any of us would be so altruistic and perfect in our voting habits year to year. If you had someone on your ballot and then read a compelling article or saw something that convinced you they didn't deserve to make the HoF, would you continue to vote for them even if your opinion changed?

A buddy of mine has a vote and agrees that a lot of people who reveal their ballots are just gaslighting for clicks and discussion. But that doesn't mean they all need to get trashed.

Here's Heyman in the NYP this morning talking about his ballot and not voting for Wagner. You might not agree with it, but he makes a compelling case, particularly asking if you think Wagner is in the top 1.18% of all players of all time.

https://nypost.com/2024/01/23/sports/glad-my-vote-didnt-keep-billy-wagner-out-of-hall-of-fame/

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If I had a vote, I would know the day a player laces up his cleats for the last time where I stand on his HOF candidacy. I don't need to be persuaded by other people because as a voter I have watched the sport and that player throughout their career. I wouldn't need five years of retirement and then another ten years of time on the ballot to make a decision.

I don't even have the responsibilty of a vote and I can do that now.

But if I did, I still had five years of retirement to figure it out.