i mean that would be extremely wise

I think that's sort of the thought process. If we add bullpen depth, we won't need our starters to go as deep into games.

Sean on 790 brought up the 2015 Royals. That's a fun comp for bullpen heavy team to win it all.

Quote:

---

A deal for JV reminds me more of the Grienke trade exactly 4 years ago today.

The Astros gave up their #1 (Seth Beer MLB's #100 ), #4 Bukauskas, #5 Corbin Martin, and #22 Rojas and the D'Backs kicked in a bit less than 1/3 of Zack's remaining salary for 2 years + 1 playoff run.

Greinke was pretty solid-average for the Astros (22-9 w/ 3.89 ERA, 3.5 WAR over 51 starts and 300 innings) and helped get them to 2 World Series (as the favorite) and another ALCS.

Every one of us were on cloud 9 when that (huge surprise) deal was announced. And I bet we are all still happy now that it happened.

Apply the same values to a JV deal this year and the deal is: Gilbert, Clifford, Leon, and Dubin + about $20M w/o the option and $31M w/ it.

I would expect a younger, higher upside prospect than Dubin, like Rhett Kouba who is 23 and having a good season at AA and will undoubtably be on top prospect mid season lists when they come out.

That deal would hurt ( especially Clifford IMO), but prospects are like a box of chocolates.

---

Taken from another site but thought it was a good, insightful post.

Greinke was 5 years younger, had an ERA under 3 at the time and had also logged 145 innings. JV is, well, none of those things but I don't doubt the muts are pretending like he is.

MaxPower said:

---

Why are we discussing the frustratingly obvious thing that will never happen?

---

Because this is a message board and it's cathartic.

We HAD Korey Lee…

Completely agree. My comment was in regard to the personnel and not the construction/order of the lineup. However, I believe Kalas and Blummer said in Yordan and Altuve's first game back that the decision to keep Tucker 3rd was due to a conversation between Yordan, Tucker, and Dusty where they all agreed Tucker should stay in the 3-spot. Okay, fine. Then bat Yordan 4th. I love Bregman, but he is not a clean-up hitter. Yordan and Tucker, as long as Tucker continues to rake, are interchangeable in the 3-4 spots, IMO. Play with both down the stretch and see which one works best for the team.

I also didn't understand Dubon in CF with Chas in LF. Chas has proven to be pretty dang good defensively. When he's in the lineup, and Meyers is not, he HAS to be in CF.
My ideal lineup would be:
Altuve - 2B
Pena - SS
Yordan - DH
Tucker - RF
Bregman - 3B
Abreu - 1B
Chas - CF
Diaz - C
Dubon - LF
Pena is MUCH better when you have to pitch to him. And you have to pitch to him in the 2-spot, because if you pitch around him, then you're putting runners on for Yordan and Tucker. This is why he has been so successful in the 2-spot. He isn't disciplined enough yet as a hitter, and this forces the hand of the opposing team to give him balls to put in play. IMO, if you want Yordan to play LF, you put Dubon at 1B and have Abreu be the DH. Late in games, you can sub Meyers for Dubon for defensive purposes and swap him and Chas in the outfield.

tjack16 said:

---

Farmer1906 said:

---

Sean on 790 brought up the 2015 Royals. That's a fun comp for bullpen heavy team to win it all.

---

I feel like the 2021 Braves bullpen too was what led them. That and they hit the clutch HR whenever they needed it

But I remember the Braves just rolling out lefty after lefty and they always had weird arm angles and velocity

---

They remind me more of us last year. A really good bullpen that shut teams down, but they had the starters to ride too.

Max Fried, 5 starts, 3 total ER
Ian Anderson, 4 starts, 3 total ER
Charlie Morton, 4 starts, 6 total ER (zero in WS)
Jesse Chavez, 1 start, 0 ER

Then again they rarely went deep. That speaks to the bullpen too.

Trade Deadline update:

A substantial number of teams remain involved in the market for starting pitching.

Sources say buyers include LAD, BAL, HOU, SFG, TBR, ARI, CIN, MIA, PHI, ATL.

This explains why sellers -- like the Tigers -- have maintained high prices. @MLBNetwork

— Jon Morosi (@jonmorosi) July 31, 2023

31 hours and counting

Huh? He was in Sugarland

Top Trade Chips

Quote:

---

Astros: Jake Meyers, OF
Under club control through: 2027

Meyers appears to have fallen out of favor in Houston, sitting behind Corey Julks and Chas McCormick in the outfield mix. A strong defensive center fielder, Meyers could be used to address other needs on the Astros roster, as Houston's farm system isn't loaded with prospect capital to use in trades.

---

Some targets

Quote:

---

Mets: Justin Verlander, RHP
Under club control through: 2024 (plus vesting 2025 player option)
The Mets began to sell last week with the trade of David Robertson to the Marlins, then went into full sell mode with Saturday's night's agreement to trade Max Scherzer to the Rangers. Other players including Tommy Pham and Mark Canha are expected to be moved, but none can make the type of impact on a pennant race that Verlander would. The 40-year-old has a full no-trade clause, so he controls the situation in the end, but if Steve Cohen is willing to pay down some of his hefty salary the way he did with Scherzer, the Mets might be able to bring back more prime young talent.

---

Quote:

---

Cardinals: Jack Flaherty, RHP
Under club control through: 2023
The Cardinals declared themselves to be sellers a couple weeks ago, yet St. Louis' first moves came on Sunday, when Jordan Montgomery and Chris Stratton were dealt to Texas and Jordan Hicks to Toronto. Nolan Arenado isn't going anywhere, but Flaherty and Paul DeJong both impending free agents should be dealt by Tuesday. Given the need for starting pitching around the league, Flaherty figures to bring back the bigger return of the two.

---

Quote:

---

Pirates: David Bednar, RHP
Under club control through: 2026
While veterans Rich Hill, Ji Man Choi and Austin Hedges figure to be traded this week, the Pirates have a pair of controllable assets that would bring them back a haul of prospects if they chose to move them: Bednar and starter Mitch Keller. Bednar has three years of club control remaining compared to two for Keller, but after a pair of All-Star appearances, the closer would be an appealing option for a contender seeking controllable help in the back end of the bullpen.

---

Quote:

---

Rockies: Brent Suter, LHP
Under club control through: 2023
The Rockies have already dealt Randal Grichuk, C.J. Cron and Pierce Johnson, but Suter, fellow lefty reliever Brand Hand and outfielder Jurickson Profar figure to be on the move by Tuesday. Suter is having a strong year, posting a 2.85 ERA in 35 appearances, putting up stronger numbers against right-handed hitters (.514 OPS) than lefties (.751).

---

Quote:

---

Red Sox: James Paxton, LHP
Under club control through: 2023
The Red Sox might take a buy-and-sell approach, and given the way Paxton an impending free agent who doesn't figure into Boston's future plans beyond 2023 has pitched over the past two months, he could bring back a strong return even as a rental. Boston could look to deal for a controllable starter to take Paxton's place in the rotation, plus Chris Sale, Tanner Houck and Garrett Whitlock are due back from the IL next month, giving the Sox rotation depth in the coming weeks.

---

Quote:

---

Guardians: Aaron Civale, RHP
Under club control through: 2025
Cleveland is in the unenviable position of not knowing whether to buy or sell, but regardless of what the Guardians do, they're unlikely to part with any of their top prospects. Shane Bieber would have been in this space before his injury as he approaches his final year of control, but Civale would likely bring back the best overall return of the team's potential trade chips. He's owed just $900,000 for the rest of 2023 and is arbitration-eligible for two more years.

---

Quote:

---

Royals: Scott Barlow, RHP
Under club control through: 2024
Barlow is entering his third and final year of arbitration this offseason, making this the right time for the Royals to deal him to a contender. The 30-year-old has struggled during the past two weeks, but given his stellar 2021 and '22 seasons, teams seeking bullpen help should be willing to offer Kansas City a good return in what is proving to be a sellers' market for relievers.

---

Quote:

---

Tigers: Eduardo Rodriguez, LHP
Under club control through: 2026 (can opt out after 2023)
Rodriguez can shed the final three years and $49 million of his contract at the end of the season to become a free agent, which many in the industry believe he will do. E-Rod and Michael Lorenzen an impending free agent have drawn significant interest and should both be moved by Tuesday, giving the Tigers a chance to bring back young talent in return.

---

Many teams are showing interest in Justin Verlander. The Astros are one of those teams but with no prospects in the top 100 they have that hurdle. Verlander has suggested he will consider accepting teams committed to winning in near-term.

— Jon Heyman (@JonHeyman) July 31, 2023

MAROON said:

---

f1ghtintexasaggie said:

---

Mr.Bond said:

---

I appreciate all the insight and I think we all realize Dana and his staff are working diligently that being said if we all recognize this team as it stands from a starting pitching standpoint has little to no shot at a World Series then surely the front office sees that as well. So then what do you do overpay for a World Series run or just essentially admit the fact that you don't have the starting pitching to get it done in the postseason

---

If we stand pat, this is essentially an admission that Crane is full of **** about wanting/planning to sustain the winning culture. His actions since this off-season have proven otherwise:

(1) chased off Click in favor of Dusty
(2) let people with no business making personnel decisions make two critical deals that will hamper our payroll flexibility moving forward, not to mention their horrid on-field performance
(3) made no move to bolster starting rotation after letting V walk
(4) claims to be willing to pay to keep the window open (which, with our depleted farm, ought to be our primary asset to offer if the owner is willing to spend), but fails to make meaningful and necessary additions at the deadline

---

In fairness, everyone thought we had no need to bolster the starting rotation with Valdez, Javier, Garcia, Urquidy, Brown, and McCullers set to be our six-man rotation.

---

No, not everyone.

Urquidy isn't an ace and McCullers is not ever healthy enough to pitch a full season

There was a big glaring SP risk that Crane didn't address in the off-season and we are ridiculously lucky to have JP France try and fill that void a bit

AggiEE said:

---

MAROON said:

---

f1ghtintexasaggie said:

---

Mr.Bond said:

---

I appreciate all the insight and I think we all realize Dana and his staff are working diligently that being said if we all recognize this team as it stands from a starting pitching standpoint has little to no shot at a World Series then surely the front office sees that as well. So then what do you do overpay for a World Series run or just essentially admit the fact that you don't have the starting pitching to get it done in the postseason

---

If we stand pat, this is essentially an admission that Crane is full of **** about wanting/planning to sustain the winning culture. His actions since this off-season have proven otherwise:

(1) chased off Click in favor of Dusty
(2) let people with no business making personnel decisions make two critical deals that will hamper our payroll flexibility moving forward, not to mention their horrid on-field performance
(3) made no move to bolster starting rotation after letting V walk
(4) claims to be willing to pay to keep the window open (which, with our depleted farm, ought to be our primary asset to offer if the owner is willing to spend), but fails to make meaningful and necessary additions at the deadline

---

In fairness, everyone thought we had no need to bolster the starting rotation with Valdez, Javier, Garcia, Urquidy, Brown, and McCullers set to be our six-man rotation.

---

No, not everyone.

Urquidy isn't an ace and McCullers is not ever healthy enough to pitch a full season

There was a big glaring SP risk that Crane didn't address in the off-season and we are ridiculously lucky to have JP France try and fill that void a bit

---

Not many teams have multiple aces. We've been blessed to have more than one pretty much since 2017 when we got Verlander. None of those guys are "aces" except Framber. Urquidy isn't going to be a Cy Young candidate, but he can be a solid starter when healthy. That's what we were relying on. I definitely agree with you on McCullers though. His ability to stay healthy is a legit concern for the rest of his career. AND he's literally un-tradeable with his contract. Even with McCullers health being unreliable, a starting rotation of Framber, Javier, Garcia, Brown, and Urquidy was definitely something you can feel solid about in the offseason. France has been a good surprise. However, with the health issues on the staff and how the guys are performing, not going after a SP at the deadline will be a big mistake IMO.

I still believe. We have so much playoff experience on our roster we can't be written off. It would be great to skip the wild card round just as a reset, but if that isn't in the cards then get pitching rested in September during expanded roster. Last year the teams that skipped WC round were pretty cold and tight, it seemed to be a disadvantage.

We need to figure out what our healthy roster/batting order is and let them play together fairly regularly through August. Let pitchers get comfortable with Diaz catching and roll the post season dice. Seen much worse teams go on October runs without the experience we have.