Put me in the camp of trading for Bellinger and a SP. I know we're targeting BP help, but I think we bolster the BP just as much (maybe more) by adding a SP. Urquidy, Blanco, and/or Bielak would provide much needed long-relief depth that we need.

Ag_07 said:

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Yeah that's a shlt ton for 2 months of those guys

Pass

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Plus a guy who could be the pitcher equivalent of Carlos Gomez with a s**t attitude and Bellinger, who might not fit in (unless of course he rakes, and then we don't care). Even if you get "good" Stroman and Cory that's crapload to give up for a 2 month rental.

Might as well give that list to the Angels and see if they would part with Ohtani if you're giving that much up.

While you cannot assume all of those things, we alao had been lucky on pitcher health and really gambled on the consistency of super young pitching.

The team should know by now that you never COUNT on McCullers. His presence is a bonus.

Framber and Urquidy provided two proven arms. Garcia was a third, but was a pitcher having to reinvent his pitching motion due to rule changes
and that is always a red-flag for injury watch. Neither Javier or Brown have endured a full ML season as a starter yet.

There is a reason why many thought we should have added a veteran depth arm after we let JV walk.

I am not saying the team should have predicted the particualar injuries, I am simply saying they gambled on SP depth coming off of a year when your pitchers all stayed remarkably healthy.

I know the team is looking for RP under control, which is smart, but have you heard anything about Hicks? He seems like someone that should not cost much as a rental but could be probably be extended/resigned as a local kid.

They'll definitely be inquiring on the Cardinals players if they haven't already. Hicks included.

I will say the reason they want relievers with team control is most of them are on team-friendly contracts. It'll allow them to spend more in free agency this next offseason where they can upgrade in other areas.

texasaggie2015 said:

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It'll allow them to spend more in free agency this next offseason where they can upgrade in other areas.

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No Jeff we have Dana here now. You can't provide your input anymore.

Sure. And bullpen figures to be a big spot there with FA openings.

I would not pay Neris like a closer (grimacing at Montero deal), but he is the rare super consistent reliever that I would be comfortable giving 8-10 mil for a 2 year deal.

Stanek is replacable, and I think Maton will get overpaid.

The lack of young high-octane RO arms ready for the majors is actually where I feel like our shallow system is being most revealed, without another Abreu or even Josh James ready to step up and help.

Between the deadline and offseason, we need both another high quality backend guy as well as another 1-2 younger projects than we can improve.

texasaggie2015 said:

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Wabs said:

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Put me in the camp of trading for Bellinger and a SP. I know we're targeting BP help, but I think we bolster the BP just as much (maybe more) by adding a SP. Urquidy, Blanco, and/or Bielak would provide much needed long-relief depth that we need.

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They need more than just long relief help. The entire bullpen is gassed.

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The main thing I see is Montero--he's taking up one of your 8 spots in the pen, and providing almost nothing in return. That's putting more work on the other 7, and much more stress on the core 4 (Neris, Maton, Abreu, Pressly). You can't send him down, and I don't think DFA'ing him is likely. So, maybe he develops a blister that needs a 60 day IL?

texasaggie2015 said:

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Every single arm in the bullpen is on pace to surpass their career highs for innings pitched. It's not just a Montero problem. These guys are going to fall apart down the stretch if we don't get reinforcements.

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At least today is a rest day!

As we have seen, the six man rotation needed as a crutch for the young SP further hurts the bullpen by making them play a man short

While unorthodox, I wonder if there would be any consideration in using a tandem setup until the end of August with a pair of guys from Javier, Brown, or France? It would not be long term viable, but you get extra help in September and it might allow you to save some innings on a couple of arms (3-4 innings per start), eapecially if you add another SP via trade.

For example, Framber, Javier/Brown, Urquidy, SP addition, France. It seems like it could provide a break to two SP while also providing another game where the bullpen doesn't have to do heavy lifting.

Otherwise I don't see relief for some of these guys short of phantom IL stints.

Update: Aaron Civale is one of the top controllable starters on the trade market this summer, and the chance of a deal has increased amid the Guardians’ recent struggles. I spoke about the outlook today on @MLBNetwork. pic.twitter.com/pLgfsmHWAk

— Jon Morosi (@jonmorosi) July 17, 2023

Oh, I agree and understand the issue. I know it's not just a Montero issue, but I do think it is a big chunk of the problem. Montero is on pace to have the same number of innings as last year--but last year, so many were high leverage. This year, it's mop up innings.

The other issue is our #4 and #5 are not getting as deep in games this year, which is causing more stress on the bullpen.

Pressly, Maton and Abreu are all on pace to exceed last year's innings pitched. Neris and Stanek are similar.

Getting another solid RP arm would is great, but Dana's still going to run into issues with the 13 pitcher limit and 40 man. Montero taking up a spot doesn't help out. I hope RM can turn it around and give quality innings, but I'm not optimistic...

scrimp said:

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Oh, I agree and understand the issue. I know it's not just a Montero issue, but I do think it is a big chunk of the problem. Montero is on pace to have the same number of innings as last year--but last year, so many were high leverage. This year, it's mop up innings.

The other issue is our #4 and #5 are not getting as deep in games this year, which is causing more stress on the bullpen.

Pressly, Maton and Abreu are all on pace to exceed last year's innings pitched. Neris and Stanek are similar.

Getting another solid RP arm would is great, but Dana's still going to run into issues with the 13 pitcher limit and 40 man. Montero taking up a spot doesn't help out. I hope RM can turn it around and give quality innings, but I'm not optimistic...

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Overall in agreeance with you. 3/5 of the rotation isn't going 6 innings reliably. In my opinion, SP is so much more important to me than BP. IF the Astros can get 1 or even 2 guys that can get 6 reliably like Framber and JP, a lot of the BP issues I think will start to take care of themselves.

That's why I don't like this idea of trading for BP arms with control. Especially when BP arms are historically unreliable year to year.

IF the Astros can get 1 guy that can get you 6 innings on a nightly basis, them I'm fine getting a rental BP arm.

It's not just a #4 or 5 not going deep. It's the entire rotation

Framber is 6.5 IP/start
Javier is 5.1
Brown is 5.5
JP is 5.8
Bielak is 5.7
Urquidy was 4.5
Garcia was. 4.5
Blanco is 5.7

So basically every start is averaging 3 plus relievers if they each give an inning. And that doesn't count the 7 extra inning fiascos.

We are using half our pen every night. That's why we see 44 and 45 games on these guys.

I'm basically counting JP as a 6 inning guy for my discussion because like the last 6-8 starts he's gone 6-7 innings per game.

Remains to be seen if he can keep that up the remainder of the season.

As far who goes if we add more BP arms I think Stanek, Martinez, and this new big country MFer are all dispensable.

There's a palatable route to make room for arms who are an upgrade.

I wonder if Brown needs to go to the pen at some point to reduce innings. If you can get Urquidy healthy and acquire another starter then he may be your big RP addition. Problem is everyone wants pitching, whether of the SP or RP variety.

What is it about Chas that would make the Astros move him? Seems like a good profile for a starting CFer.

Is he nearing free agency and they don't want to commit?

According to this Chas is under control through 2026

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/houston-astros/chas-mccormick-48745/

Who else is going to be in town for the game tomorrow? Taking the family and we're sitting in 245.

We had tickets for the start of a vacation and sold them and cancelled. Dealing with a sick dog and we didn't want to leave him for an extended period.

We would have left yesterday for Denver, then on to Moab, Arches, CanyonLands, Bryce, Page/Antelope Canyon, and the North Rim.

Dang sorry to hear. We drove over to Canyonlands and Arches this past spring break. Was a blast.

Mathguy64 said:

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It's not just a #4 or 5 not going deep. It's the entire rotation

Framber is 6.5 IP/start
Javier is 5.1
Brown is 5.5
JP is 5.8
Bielak is 5.7
Urquidy was 4.5
Garcia was. 4.5
Blanco is 5.7

So basically every start is averaging 3 plus relievers if they each give an inning. And that doesn't count the 7 extra inning fiascos.

We are using half our pen every night. That's why we see 44 and 45 games on these guys.

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I wonder how this compares to the rest of the league. Haven't had a chance to look, but it's starting pitching average length overall down due to the pitch clock?

Mathguy64 said:

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We had tickets for the start of a vacation and sold them and cancelled. Dealing with a sick dog and we didn't want to leave him for an extended period.

We would have left yesterday for Denver, then on to Moab, Arches, CanyonLands, Bryce, Page/Antelope Canyon, and the North Rim.

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Just very recently did Bryce, Zion, and Antelope/Horseshoe Bend. Sorry to hear that news but hope you get a chance to get out there soon, it's so worth it.

scrimp said:

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Mathguy64 said:

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It's not just a #4 or 5 not going deep. It's the entire rotation

Framber is 6.5 IP/start
Javier is 5.1
Brown is 5.5
JP is 5.8
Bielak is 5.7
Urquidy was 4.5
Garcia was. 4.5
Blanco is 5.7

So basically every start is averaging 3 plus relievers if they each give an inning. And that doesn't count the 7 extra inning fiascos.

We are using half our pen every night. That's why we see 44 and 45 games on these guys.

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I wonder how this compares to the rest of the league. Haven't had a chance to look, but it's starting pitching average length overall down due to the pitch clock?

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Good question.