***Official Houston Astros 2022-23 Offseason Thread***

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agproducer
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9:08a, 3/20/23
AG
This is pretty damn pathetic.

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Teddy Perkins
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In reply to EastCoastAgNc • 9:30a, 3/20/23
AG
EastCoastAgNc said:
Quote:
How is the youngest position player to win a World Series MVP award supposed to follow that up?

"You've got to win again," he said.
I'm tingly.
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Prosperdick
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In reply to agproducer • 10:46a, 3/20/23
AG
agproducer said:
This is pretty damn pathetic.

It's completely aligned with that trash fanbase.
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EastCoastAgNc
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11:43a, 3/20/23
AG
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Eso si, Que es
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In reply to EastCoastAgNc • 11:51a, 3/20/23
EastCoastAgNc said:
Roger Metzger 1973 - 14 triples

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3B Paul 97
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In reply to Eso si, Que es • 12:12p, 3/20/23
AG
Everyone knows you can't get triples when you lollygag around the bases.
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The Porkchop Express
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12:20p, 3/20/23
AG
It's just TEN DAYS until Opening Day! And that means time to revisit Jersey #10.



It was wore most prominently in the 1960s by my mom's third-favorite Astro of all time, Mr. Rusty Staub, who of course, we traded away just in time for his prime. He was 19 years old in 1963 and played 150 games, 1 of only 2 players in the 20th century to play more than 140 games as a teenager. He didn't hit for much (.224) but it didn't really matter since the Colt 45s were terrible. He played first base and the outfield and kept getting better as he got older. In 1966 he hit 13 HR, drove in 81 runs, and hit .38. The year after that he was a top player in the league, hitting .333, the highest regular-season average by an Astro until Derek Bell hit .334 in 1995 only striking out 47 times, and leading the NL with 44 doubles. The doubles' mark was the Astros' team record until Bagwell (46) broke it in 1996.

Staub was an all-star in 1967 and 1968 but didn't get along with manager Harry "The Hat" Walker and got traded to the expansion Expos for the 1969 season. There he became a superstar, journeying on to the Mets and the Tigers, racking up 4 seasons with 22+ homers, 6 seasons with 94+ RBI, making 4 all-star teams, and finishing 5 in the AL MVP race in 1978 for Detroit after driving in 121 runs. He finished his career with 2,716 hits, 499 doubles, and 292 HR. In 23 years, he made the playoffs just once, when the Mets lost to Oakland in the 1973 World Series. He was incredible in that series, going 11 for 26 (.423). Staub passed away in 2018.



Some other guys wore #10 i the 70s, but in 1981 it came to a young Puerto Rican shortstop named Dickie Thon, the most painful "what if?' story in our 60 years as a franchise. The Astros got Thon for Ken Forsch in a trade on the first week of the 1981 season. Thon had actually played with Nolan Ryan briefly with the Angels in 1979. He played 49 games for the Astros in 1981, then took over as the regular shortstop in 1982.

He played 136 games, hit .276, led the league with 10 triples, had 31 doubles and stole 37 bases. In 1983, he was the best shortstop in baseball not named Cal Ripken, He hit .286 with 20 HR, 79 RBI, 34 SB, slugging .457, scored 81 runs made the all-star team, won the Silver Slugger, and finished 7th in the MVP voting.
He started the 1984 season off white-hot, hitting .353 in the first 5 games. Then it all fell apart. He was beaned in the face by the Mets' Mike Torrez and the ball broke the orbital bone around his left eye. Three days later when doctors wired the bone back into place, his vision dropped from 20/20 to 20/300. The Astros initially thought he'd be back in a month, scar tissue ruined his depth perception.
He missed the entire rest of the season

He started for the Astros on Opening Day 1985 against the Dodgers at the Astrodome and received a 4-minute standing ovation when he came to the plate. He singled off Fernando Valenzuela in the bottom of the third and started the season on a 6-game hit streak, but it didn't last. He wound up hitting .251 in 84 games, and never hit higher than that the rest of his Astro tenure. He signed on with the Padres, Phillies, and Rangers, after that, and came close to his old form in 1989 with the Phillies, hitting 15 home runs and batting .271. Living in the past does us no good, but imagine the 1986 Astros with pre-injury Thon at shortstop and JR Richard in the rotation. The Mets might have been swept.



Various posers wore the # after Thon - Harry Spilman, Ken Oberkfell, Ernest Riles, Andujar Cedeno, and finally it landed on the back of Mike Hampton, the bulldog pitcher who played with the team from 1995-1999. Hampton was an all-time steal, coming to the team in a trade for Mike Felder. He was just 19-18 in his first two years, then went 15-10 in 1997, 11-7 in 1998, and went off to a 22-4 season with a 2.90 ERA in 1999. He finished second in the Cy Young voting behind former teammate Randy Johnson, and also won a Silver Slugger award. one of five straight he won. He hit THREE ELEVEN in 1999, 23 for 74 with 3 doubles 3 triples, and 10 RBI. Did you read that right? 3 triples in 74 at-bats. He hit .246 for his career.

In 2000, Hampton was traded to the Mets for "reasons". Hilariously, Hunsicker told teams if you want Hampton, you have to take Derek Bell as well. The Mets got him and he went 15-10 and was MVP of the NLCS. He then signed a massive 8-year deal with the Rockies, and was frigging horrible. He went 21-28 with a 5.75 ERA then got traded again.



Jose Vizcaino wore #10 from 2001-2005, then Miguel Tejada wore it in 2008 and 2009. Tejada mysteriously forgot how to hit home runs after getting busted for steroids, but he had a great 2009 season, with 199 hits, 46 doubles, 86 RBI and a .313 average.



That brings us to a huge fan favorite, Yuli Gurriel, who wore #10 from 2016-2022 and went from people saying "we signed who?" to "WOW" in a very short amount of time. Most people had no idea what the hell was going on when the Astros announced they had signed a 32-year old rookie to a 5-year, $47.5 million contract. He played 36 games at the end of the 2016 season, hitting .262.

He took over for the team in 2017 at first base and was immediately successful, hitting .299 with 43 doubles, 18 homers, 75 RBI and hilariously finishing 4th in the Rookie of the Year voting at age 33. In the post-season, Gurriel hit .529 with a 1.261 OPS against Boston in the ALDS, and hit two incredible home runs in the World Series. One that had a regrettable celebration, and the other that destroyed Clayton Kershaw.





Yuli had huge years in 2018 (.291, 85 RBI), 2019 (31 HR, 104 RBI, .298) and 2021 (winning the batting title at .319 with 15 HR and 81 RBI). Father Time caught up with him in 2022 as his average dropped to .242. he still managed 40 doubles and caught fire in the post-season, hitting .400 vs the Mariners, .333 vs.the Yankees, and .316 vs. the Phillies. His knee injury in Game 5 was a bittersweet ending to an amazing career with the team.



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Farmer1906
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In reply to EastCoastAgNc • 12:29p, 3/20/23
AG
EastCoastAgNc said:
He was on pace in 2020. He led the league with 6 in only 58 games (Covid year). However, he only has 5 the rest of his career (18-19, 21-22)
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Farmer1906
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12:34p, 3/20/23
AG
I gotta say Frank's list isn't completely trash.

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AstroAggie15
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In reply to Farmer1906 • 12:39p, 3/20/23
AG
Well considering 100% of "lists" on social media are designed purely for clicks and reactions to generate add revenue, it's not shocking that franks "list" generated this reaction
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cone
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In reply to Farmer1906 • 12:43p, 3/20/23
AG
This guy's list

5. JR Richard
4. Alex Bregman
3. Jeff Bagwell
2. Jose Altuve
1. Craig Biggio

honorable mention - Jose Cruz, Mike "Scuff"

so you don't have to watch
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Lonestar_Ag09
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12:49p, 3/20/23
AG
Top 3 are correct. Maybe a debate on order
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Farmer1906
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In reply to AstroAggie15 • 12:49p, 3/20/23
AG
AstroAggie15 said:
Well considering 100% of "lists" on social media are designed purely for clicks and reactions to generate add revenue, it's not shocking that franks "list" generated this reaction
Sorry, I meant to say "Isn't" trash. I was expecting something flat-out terrible.

The top 3 are Bagwell, Biggio, & Altuve. Order can be argued.

After that, it should probably be Berkman. Leaving him off is the "oops".

After those 4 that debate is pretty wide open. Bregman is going into his 8th year as an Astro with another to go. He sits 10th all-time in WAR for position players, 4th in Astros history for OPS, and is a legend in the postseason. I like that he's getting respect.

Ending things with JR and an HM to Cruz & Scott. Maybe not 100% accurate, but good calls-outs.
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Prosperdick
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In reply to cone • 12:54p, 3/20/23
AG
cone said:
This guy's list

5. JR Richard
4. Alex Bregman
3. Jeff Bagwell
2. Jose Altuve
1. Craig Biggio

honorable mention - Jose Cruz, Mike "Scuff"

so you don't have to watch
He gave JR #5 on the "what if" qualifier but you could do the same for Dickie Thon. He could have been an all-timer.

Also, no Nolan Ryan as an honorable mention. I'd put Ryan over Scott for sure.
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AggieNiebs
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In reply to Prosperdick • 1:11p, 3/20/23
AG
Prosperdick said:
cone said:
This guy's list

5. JR Richard
4. Alex Bregman
3. Jeff Bagwell
2. Jose Altuve
1. Craig Biggio

honorable mention - Jose Cruz, Mike "Scuff"

so you don't have to watch
He gave JR #5 on the "what if" qualifier but you could do the same for Dickie Thon. He could have been an all-timer.

Also, no Nolan Ryan as an honorable mention. I'd put Ryan over Scott for sure.
but then he couldn't have brought astros cheating for a 2nd time in the short video....
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cone
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1:12p, 3/20/23
AG
where is Tony Eusebio on the list?
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cc10106
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In reply to The Porkchop Express • 1:16p, 3/20/23
The Porkchop Express said:
It's just TEN DAYS until Opening Day! And that means time to revisit Jersey #10.

obligatory shooting star jersey love
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HarryRocket
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1:36p, 3/20/23
My Astros Mount Rushmore

Craig Biggio
Jeff Bagwell
Jose Altuve
Jim F'n Crane

Astros Mount Rushmore is tough because there is a clear top 3. After that it gets hard.

That's why I put the man that brought us the golden era

Players top 5

Altuve
Biggio
Bagwell
Berkman
Ryan
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Ag_07
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1:51p, 3/20/23
AG
Does JV not belong?
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The Porkchop Express
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In reply to Ag_07 • 2:08p, 3/20/23
AG
Ag_07 said:
Does JV not belong?
JV not only belongs, he's our best pitcher ever. JR Richard is #2. Mike Scott won the CY and was really good from 1985-1989, but nowhere near JV or JR. I love Nolan Ryan to death, but he was so-so beyond the strikeouts in Houston. His best years were in California and sadly, Texas.

Verlander: 61-19, 2.26 ERA, 825 K in 652 innings pitched, 2 Cy Youngs, 1 ALCS MVP
Richard: 107-71, 3.15 ERA, 19 shutouts, 76 complete games, 1,493 strikeouts in 1,606 innings. led the league in strikeouts twice (303 and 313), led the league in ERA once, was 10-4 with a 1.90 ERA when he had his stroke.
Scott: 110-81, 3 seasons of 18+ wins, 1986 MVP, 1986 NLCS MVP, 20 game winner, led league in ERA, shutouts, strikeouts, and innings pitched in 1986.
Ryan: 106-94, 3.13 ERA, 1,866 strikeouts in 1,854 innings. led league in strikeouts in 1987 and 1988, led league in ERA in 1987. pitched 5th no-hitter, broke WJ's strikeout record, and first to 4,00 strikeouts.
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In reply to The Porkchop Express • 2:20p, 3/20/23
The Porkchop Express
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2:38p, 3/20/23
AG
Nolan never won more than 16 games as an Astro. He never approached the strikeout numbers he had in California. He struck out 327+ 5 times there, his high in Houston was 270. He had one season with 10 complete games, and two seasons with 3 shutouts.

From 1976-1979, JR was 20-15, 18-12, 18-11, 18-13. ERA: 2.75, 2.97, 3.11, 2.71. Strikeouts: 214, 214, 303, 313. he threw 62 complete games and 13 shutouts in those 4 years.

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The Porkchop Express
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In reply to Farmer1906 • 3:00p, 3/20/23
AG
Farmer1906 said:
EastCoastAgNc said:
He was on pace in 2020. He led the league with 6 in only 58 games (Covid year). However, he only has 5 the rest of his career (18-19, 21-22)
Who's gonna tell him it's really 14?
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In reply to The Porkchop Express • 3:01p, 3/20/23
FrioAg 00
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3:33p, 3/20/23
AG
I probably overvalue championships compared to other graders.

To me that puts Altuve above Biggio. And it elevates JV into the Top 5 - which IMO bumps out Bagwell.

1) Altuve
2) Biggio
3) JV
4) Ryan
5) Bregman

Honorable Mention: Cruz
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Farmer1906
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In reply to FrioAg 00 • 3:40p, 3/20/23
AG
FrioAg 00 said:
I probably overvalue championships compared to other graders.

To me that puts Altuve above Biggio. And it elevates JV into the Top 5 - which IMO bumps out Bagwell.

1) Altuve
2) Biggio
3) JV
4) Ryan
5) Bregman

Honorable Mention: Cruz


No Bagwell? Really?
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McInnis
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In reply to The Porkchop Express • 3:52p, 3/20/23
AG
Quote:
Staub was an all-star in 1967 and 1968 but didn't get along with manager Harry "The Hat" Walker and got traded to the expansion Expos for the 1969 season.
I know a lot of you guys zone out on this ancient history, but reading about this trade is worth a minute. If nothing else, it can help you realize how awesome it is to be an Astros fan today.

GM Spec Richardson was still honing his skills at building championships for other cities while working his way up to the Joe Morgan trade. But this one was just as bad, at least in terms of quality if not quantity.

The Astros agreed to trade Staub to the Expos for Donn Clendenon and Jesus Alou. But Staub wasn't the only one who didn't want to play for Harry Walker. Clendenon had played under him in Pittsburg earlier in the 60s and considered him (Walker) to be a racist. So Clendenon announced he would retire rather than report to Houston. Due diligence anyone?

Bowie Kuhn became the first commissioner to be hated in Houston. Rather than nullify the trade, he let the Expos keep Staub. And made them send Jack Billingham to Houston in place of Clendenon. Billingham did become a solid starting pitcher, winning 19 games in consecutive seasons. But not until a few years later. When he was traded to Cincinatti. Along with Morgan.

In the meantime, the Expos decided they really didn't want Clendenon and traded him to the Mets a few months into the 1969 season. He became the Mets World Series MVP that year.

Never has a player been booed in Houston more than Clendenon. This went on for years. If the Astros were playing the Mets, you didn't need Gene Elston to tell you when he was coming to bat, the crowd would let you know. It was brutal.

Was Harry Walker a racist? I don't know, but that was at a time when being called that still carried some weight. When Joe Morgan, not exactly known for being a malcontent, was traded from Houston he said he thought Walker was racist. And it's a fact that Walker was a member of the 1947 St. Louis team that threatened to boycott a game against the Dodgers because Jackie Robinson played for them.

Staub had a good career, maybe comparable to Lance Berkman's. Not quite HOF, but Hall of Very Good. He became a fan favorite in Montreal and then later in New York as not only a good player but a celebrity chef as well.
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Farmer1906
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4:06p, 3/20/23
AG


I hope Chas & Jeremy saw a couple thousand sliders this offseason.
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Ag_07
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In reply to FrioAg 00 • 4:06p, 3/20/23
AG
FrioAg 00 said:
I probably overvalue championships compared to other graders.

To me that puts Altuve above Biggio. And it elevates JV into the Top 5 - which IMO bumps out Bagwell.

1) Altuve
2) Biggio
3) JV
4) Ryan
5) Bregman

Honorable Mention: Cruz

I get that but you can't bump Bagwell out of a top 5 Astros conversation

Hell you didn't give him honorable mention.
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In reply to Farmer1906 • 4:30p, 3/20/23
Ag4life80
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4:32p, 3/20/23
AG
Staub's nickname in Montreal was 'Le Grande Orange' for his red hair. I had no idea he had that many career hits. Pretty stellar career.
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McInnis
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In reply to Ag4life80 • 4:54p, 3/20/23
AG
He was the first player to get 500+ hits for four different teams. I don't know how many have done it since.
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FrioAg 00
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5:05p, 3/20/23
AG
It's fair, I've been and Astros fan all my life but I just never liked Bags. Even when we were in the middle of the killer B's, I just didn't.

I think it has something to do with his "I'm the most badass dude on the planet" stance, but it always felt like his struck out on the clutch hits that would have propelled us. He came up short so damn often when he had the chance to live up to his reputation.

Someone on here recently showed a stat that showed while he did hit lower numbers in clutch situation, they still weren't as awful as they felt to me at the time.
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redline248
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In reply to The Porkchop Express • 5:11p, 3/20/23
AG
Quote:
and also won a Silver Slugger award. one of five straight he won. He hit THREE ELEVEN in 1999, 23 for 74 with 3 doubles 3 triples, and 10 RBI. Did you read that right? 3 triples in 74 at-bats. He hit .246 for his career.
...but everyone is just fine with catchers that can't hit .200
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The Porkchop Express
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In reply to [removed post] • 5:12p, 3/20/23
AG
Bregxit said:
The Porkchop Express said:
Nolan never won more than 16 games as an Astro. He never approached the strikeout numbers he had in California. He struck out 327+ 5 times there, his high in Houston was 270. He had one season with 10 complete games, and two seasons with 3 shutouts.

From 1976-1979, JR was 20-15, 18-12, 18-11, 18-13. ERA: 2.75, 2.97, 3.11, 2.71. Strikeouts: 214, 214, 303, 313. he threw 62 complete games and 13 shutouts in those 4 years.

So because Nolan in Houston didn't approach Nolan in California's numbers, he is nowhere near JR? Wins don't make a hill of beans as to whether a pitcher is bad, good, great or whatever. Ryan never got run support in Houston. For example, in 1987 he became the first and only pitcher ever to not win the Cy Young when leading the league in both ERA and strikeouts...all because the lack of run support led to an 8-16 record. His workload was also managed drastically different in Houston than in California previously. The late 70s were the end of the "finish what you started" era. Nolan's inning count reflects that. The 80s was the beginning of managing pitch counts and heavier bullpen usage.

I am not diminishing JR by any stretch, but to say Ryan was nowhere near him in Astros history is absurd.
I didn't say he was nowhere near JR. I'm saying in my opinion JR was better. I'd put Nolan in the top 4 for sure of Astro pitchers, but not as good as JR. But it's difficult to believe he didn't get run support for an entire decade.
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