odd how the Astros as an offense were overall better on the road than they were at home that year.DallasAg 94 said:Home: .290Harry Dunne said:
His Astros batting average leads me to believe he did not receive the memo about the garbage can.
Away: .161
2017 splits
And Shoeless Joe Jackson was banned from baseball even though he dominated in the World Series that year. Lots at play here. It's baseball. Between talent, analysis, and cheating, it's a crazy situation.tjholley16 said:odd how the Astros as an offense were overall better on the road than they were at home that year.DallasAg 94 said:Home: .290Harry Dunne said:
His Astros batting average leads me to believe he did not receive the memo about the garbage can.
Away: .161
2017 splits
an example from a recent SI article.
"In what was categorized by the Commissioner's Office as a "player-driven and player-executed" sign-stealing scheme, Altuve was less effective in games at Minute Maid Park, compared to contests on the road. In 296 at bats (over 78 games) the second baseman hit .311 with 52 strike outs -- in 294 at bats away from Houston (75 games played) Altuve hit .381 with 20 fewer punch outs.
If Altuve was one of the players to have participated in this sign-stealing scheme, knowing which pitches were coming ahead of time in contests played at Minute Maid Park, then why was he a far better hitter on the road? At first glance, you'd think a home field advantage, even without cheating, would lead to superior production -- in games at Yankee Stadium in 2017, Judge added almost 60 points to his season batting average and crushed 13 more home runs."
https://www.si.com/mlb/yankees/news/judge-altuve-2017-mvp-sign-stealing
That's a perfect example. They were not a blue-blood and they kept cheating egregiously even after being told to stop - both were factors in an overly harsh penalty.tjholley16 said:
I think it's similar to the SMU death penalty. Everybody was pretty much cheating, SMU was doing more than everybody else and got busted. Other teams got a slap on the wrist compared to them but we remember SMU the most.
DallasAg 94 said:So, are you asserting that the Astros didn't cheat or didn't benefit from cheating?tjholley16 said:odd how the Astros as an offense were overall better on the road than they were at home that year.DallasAg 94 said:Home: .290Harry Dunne said:
His Astros batting average leads me to believe he did not receive the memo about the garbage can.
Away: .161
2017 splits
an example from a recent SI article.
"In what was categorized by the Commissioner's Office as a "player-driven and player-executed" sign-stealing scheme, Altuve was less effective in games at Minute Maid Park, compared to contests on the road. In 296 at bats (over 78 games) the second baseman hit .311 with 52 strike outs -- in 294 at bats away from Houston (75 games played) Altuve hit .381 with 20 fewer punch outs.
If Altuve was one of the players to have participated in this sign-stealing scheme, knowing which pitches were coming ahead of time in contests played at Minute Maid Park, then why was he a far better hitter on the road? At first glance, you'd think a home field advantage, even without cheating, would lead to superior production -- in games at Yankee Stadium in 2017, Judge added almost 60 points to his season batting average and crushed 13 more home runs."
https://www.si.com/mlb/yankees/news/judge-altuve-2017-mvp-sign-stealing
See, I'm guessing you may not know how cheating works. Cheating only benefits you when cheating changes the outcome.
Proposition Joe said:
It's such an odd logic-shift to take the stance of "the Astros were cheating but I'm sure other teams were doing it too" but then turnaround and take the stance of "some Astros players were cheating but I'm sure Altuve wasn't one of them".
DallasAg 94 said:Are you projection, speculating, or have proof?tjholley16 said:Considering there is proof that they did, I'm not denying it. However I'd bet a lot of money that about 10 other teams did similar things. Doesn't excuse it. I wish mLB would investigate every team and report their findings. They won't thoughDallasAg 94 said:
So, are you asserting that the Astros didn't cheat or didn't benefit from cheating?
See, I'm guessing you may not know how cheating works. Cheating only benefits you when cheating changes the outcome.
Which 10?
Were they cheating in general, or similar to Astros?
The Astros are the only team I've ever heard caught with an employee using a cell phone to video an opponents dugout during the game.
Without breaking out H/A, the Astros hit .276 with the bases empty, .290 with runners on and .294 when RISP.
Cheating by stealing signs helps with a RISP more than it does with the bases empty.
One split particularly weird is, their worst hitting scenario was with 2Out, runner only on 2B. They hit .217.
In almost every situation with a runner on 3rd, they hit over .300, with 2 exceptions: 0out Runner only on 3rd. 1Out runner on 2nd & 3rd.
0Outs:
- - 3: .250 <- This jumps to .349 with 1 out and then .322 with 2Outs
1 - 3: .500
- 2 3: .304
1 2 3: .350
1Outs:
- - 3: .349
1 - 3: ..392
- 2 3: .278
1 2 3: .356
2Outs:
- - 3 : .322
1 - 3 : .306
- 2 3 :.300
1 2 3 : .370
With nobody out, it would seem likely you wouldn't need to cheat, because you can wait until after you have an out, if he doesn't score.
None of those stats means anything because there is no real context. Once the Astros were far enough ahead of the league, there was no need to cheat during the season. They were up 16.0 Games on July 4th.
They had a really good team, and they may not have had to cheat. But they did. And they got caught.
We'll find out real quick in 2020, if Altuve was cheating.
DallasAg 94 said:Are you projection, speculating, or have proof?tjholley16 said:Considering there is proof that they did, I'm not denying it. However I'd bet a lot of money that about 10 other teams did similar things. Doesn't excuse it. I wish mLB would investigate every team and report their findings. They won't thoughDallasAg 94 said:
So, are you asserting that the Astros didn't cheat or didn't benefit from cheating?
See, I'm guessing you may not know how cheating works. Cheating only benefits you when cheating changes the outcome.
Which 10?
Were they cheating in general, or similar to Astros?
The Astros are the only team I've ever heard caught with an employee using a cell phone to video an opponents dugout during the game.
Without breaking out H/A, the Astros hit .276 with the bases empty, .290 with runners on and .294 when RISP.
Cheating by stealing signs helps with a RISP more than it does with the bases empty.
One split particularly weird is, their worst hitting scenario was with 2Out, runner only on 2B. They hit .217.
In almost every situation with a runner on 3rd, they hit over .300, with 2 exceptions: 0out Runner only on 3rd. 1Out runner on 2nd & 3rd.
0Outs:
- - 3: .250 <- This jumps to .349 with 1 out and then .322 with 2Outs
1 - 3: .500
- 2 3: .304
1 2 3: .350
1Outs:
- - 3: .349
1 - 3: ..392
- 2 3: .278
1 2 3: .356
2Outs:
- - 3 : .322
1 - 3 : .306
- 2 3 :.300
1 2 3 : .370
With nobody out, it would seem likely you wouldn't need to cheat, because you can wait until after you have an out, if he doesn't score.
None of those stats means anything because there is no real context. Once the Astros were far enough ahead of the league, there was no need to cheat during the season. They were up 16.0 Games on July 4th.
They had a really good team, and they may not have had to cheat. But they did. And they got caught.
We'll find out real quick in 2020, if Altuve was cheating.
DallasAg 94 said:I'm not saying that at all. I just found it interesting, when you look at the BAs. It would seem the catcher would mix up the signs more intentionally with a guy on 2B, and if there wasn't... and to hit only .217 with 2O and only a hitter at 2B. That is like .150 below many other scenarios.94chem said:
Are you saying that the team average went down in all situations with 2nd base occupied? Isn't the implication obvious? And isn't that the best evidence that other teams weren't cheating to that extent? Cheating teams would have been paranoid and mixed their pitch signals even with 2nd base empty.
Even paranoid teams would necessarily mix pitches, if nobody was on 2B.
I can assure you that Bregman while on 2B almost always relayed signs to the hitter.
1st signal
Look right for FB
Look left for non-FB
2nd signal
Look right for right side
Look left for left side
IMO, that is gamesmanship. Shame on the Rangers for not mixing up the signals. Watch almost any game the Astros played the Rangers, in which Bregman was on 2B, and it is as blatant as the hitter looking to 3B getting signs.
It wasn't just Bregman, but he was clear and consistent. I found myself disappointed in the Rangers for not doing anything. I bet you can search TA on a Rangers thread to see posts about it.
DallasAg 94 said:Well, we certainly know that A-Rod, McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Canseco, and Palmeiro never cheated... because they have "hit all their life." And because they ALL denied being involved.Marvin said:
Altuve has hit all his life. Bregman has hit all his life. Springer has hit all his life. Correa has hit all his life. These guys were successful before MMP, they were successful in the minors. They were successful on the road.
Why did they cheat? Obviously because they felt that it gave them an advantage- same reason the steroid abusers cheated. I contend they didn't need to given their prior success, and their ability to hit on the road... but they obviously thought otherwise. It's what makes me so darn mad about it all, and now we as fans have to put up with this type of selective stats crap..
Altuve will hit again, just like he did before. When that happens, will you get on here and acknowledge it, or just keeping screaming "doesn't matter, cheated" from your steroid-ignoring soapbox?
Spend some time breaking down Juan Gonzalez before and after steroids. Or A-Rod. Or Josh Hamilton. I'll hold my breath.
Juan-Do is a different story.
As for my position on steroids... you can look up my historical posts on them, before you start projecting your opinions of my position.
DallasAg 94 said:My response was tongue-in-cheek. Everyone knew they were using, regardless of how the professed their innocence. Palmeiro wagging his finger to congress was classic.Marvin said:Strike one: Hitting liners vs homers is very different. Slugging was the reason, and they did steroids to benefit (even Astros). A double becomes a homer. A single splits the gap. Batting average might not change much, but OPS can still skyrocket- especially for a player that is prone to K's.DallasAg 94 said:
Well, we certainly know that A-Rod, McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Canseco, and Palmeiro never cheated... because they have "hit all their life." And because they ALL denied being involved.
Juan-Do is a different story.
As for my position on steroids... you can look up my historical posts on them, before you start projecting your opinions of my position.
Strike two: The Astros admitted cheating, so not sure I understand your response. Some of our fans denied it, but that's just being obtuse. I hate it happened but acknowledge that it did happen.
I was strongly against the use of PEDs, regardless of team. So much outspoken on this board, that there was a time I caught a lot of slack. I believe even Ken Griffey Jr was using.
The argument many people used was just what it was here... Griffey, A-Rod and Bonds hit great before the Roid-Era, and therefore, like Bagwell and Biggio, can't be implicated just because they had great seasons during the Roid-Era.
There are clean players that missed their opportunity to play MLB because others cheated.
What? I did not say "there is no way to steal signs with a cell phone" at all. I said that you dont steal signs by filming the opposing dugout. This guy in the video is filming the third base coach.Fenrir said:
I'm not saying that MLB teams' signs are as simplistic as the signs these guys were testing their system on (so therefore I can't state whether this system has value at the MLB level), but I am not sure it's correct to say there is no way to steal signs by use of a cell phone.
DallasAg 94 said:Ok... we'll see how they do in 2020...JJxvi said:
MLB "cleared the Astros of any wrongdoing" in October of 2018 for the dugout filming incidents. You also don't really film the dugout to steal signs (not if you expect to get anything out of it anyway), you film the third base coach and the catcher. Like the Taubman thing at Yankee Stadium, filming the dugout was likely some idiotic misguided attempt to catch the other team stealing signs.
Splits:
2019:
Home: 74.1%
Road: 58.0%
2018:
Home: 56.8%
Road: 70.4%
2017:
Home: 59.3%
Road: 65.4%
2016:
Home: 53.1%
Road: 50.6%
2015:
Home: 65.4%
Road: 40.7%
I bet they are closer to 45% winning on the road, in 2020.
There are LOTS of reasons to pickup signs from the dugout. Most teams (not all) have the pitches sent in by the manager in the dugout. If you get the sign when the catcher gets the sign... you have an equal opportunity to relay to your hitter. In addition, the manager likely sets up location, as well.